General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course.

[Drascin]

Yeah, the combat system is definitely not what drew me into Exalted. Actually, it was pretty much everything except the combat. 10 step resolution? For every attack? I can't be the only one who finds that ludicrous game design. Not necessarily bad game design, depending on what the game is attempting to execute, but ludicrous, I think, is an accurate term for it.

Yeah. Honestly, if someone ported the fluff of Exalted into a less pants-on-head system I'd jump ship in a second. Preferably one where not spamming perfect defenses doesn't mean you getting instantly vaporized (which means end of campaign for you, since there's no resurrection here), if it's at all possible .

[horngeek]

Yeah. Honestly, if someone ported the fluff of Exalted into a less pants-on-head system I'd jump ship in a second. Preferably one where not spamming perfect defenses doesn't mean you getting instantly vaporized (which means end of campaign for you, since there's no resurrection here), if it's at all possible .

Actually, it was pointed out by a fellow player in the FFRP section of the boards that while, yes, there is no resurrection, the alternative (Exaltation gets reborn) can be more interesting. Because of the changes in personality coupled with some people having known your previous life and having opinions based off that.

[Drascin]

Actually, it was pointed out by a fellow player in the FFRP section of the boards that while, yes, there is no resurrection, the alternative (Exaltation gets reborn) can be more interesting. Because of the changes in personality coupled with some people having known your previous life and having opinions based off that.

It's not really changes on personality. It's a full new character you're rolling there and have to get into the story somehow. Whether the Exaltation is the same or not really doesn't matter - barring Misho outlier cases, you'll have at most the occasional flashback to past lives, and that's it. For all intents and purposes, you're fully rerolling, with all the bothers that implies for everyone if the campaign was doing anything of interest at the moment.

[Xefas]

Yeah. Honestly, if someone ported the fluff of Exalted into a less pants-on-head system I'd jump ship in a second. Preferably one where not spamming perfect defenses doesn't mean you getting instantly vaporized (which means end of campaign for you, since there's no resurrection here), if it's at all possible .

Yeah, me too. Although, there are 'brews somewhere on the net for Exalted Risus and Exalted Wushu, I'm not a particular fan of those base systems in the first place. I'd certainly rather play them than, say, D&D, but that doesn't help me, because I'd rather just use Exalted than all three of them.

Actually, it was pointed out by a fellow player in the FFRP section of the boards that while, yes, there is no resurrection, the alternative (Exaltation gets reborn) can be more interesting. Because of the changes in personality coupled with some people having known your previous life and having opinions based off that.

I do agree that this can be interesting, but it does get a little trite to keep having to say "Well, this random person who could have been anywhere in the vast Earth+ sized Creation has now wandered directly into the four(ish) people that happened to be buddies with the Exaltation that random person inherited, among the billions of people in the world, across thousands of miles, and now inexplicably trusts them enough to become a wandering adventure-seeking hobo with them at the drop of a hat, and also inexplicably cares about whatever the hell they were doing at the time."

It's just as likely as not that even if you're a saint of Carl Sagan-ly standards, your Exaltation could go to Babymaim Convalescenthospitalburn the VI, Prince of the Babymaim Dynasty. Sure, it doesn't have to, but it does become trite for that to not ever happen in all the games of Exalted your group plays.

[Tavar]

Isn't the Loom specifically designed to gather Solars together?

Plus, well, I like no resurrection thing. Sometimesa character having unfinished business is nice. It would be nice if combat wasn't so reliant on perfect defenses. I think it could work if the Celestial Perfects were toned down like the Terrestrial, and the Terrestrial's just lost theirs.

[golentan]

Isn't the Loom specifically designed to gather Solars together?

Plus, well, I like no resurrection thing. Sometimesa character having unfinished business is nice. It would be nice if combat wasn't so reliant on perfect defenses. I think it could work if the Celestial Perfects were toned down like the Terrestrial, and the Terrestrial's just lost theirs.

I don't think it's the loom, but yeah. Celestials tend to meet other celestials at a rate a few hundred million times the background average, and that's enshrined in the game setting that if they are relatively nearby they'll run into each other and awesome will happen, for whatever reason.

[The Rose Dragon]

Plus, well, I like no resurrection thing. Sometimesa character having unfinished business is nice. It would be nice if combat wasn't so reliant on perfect defenses. I think it could work if the Celestial Perfects were toned down like the Terrestrial, and the Terrestrial's just lost theirs.

The result would be massive Celestial Exalt death due to Sudden Kill Combo. That's not really a good thing. It would be better if Willpower wasn't your "I matter in combat" resource, though.

EDIT: Also, the Storyteller's Manual says that freshly Exalted people are drawn to other Exalts of their kind to form packs, circles, brotherhoods or whatever due to the Exaltations.

[Xefas]

Isn't the Loom specifically designed to gather Solars together?

It's my understanding that the Loom holds little or no sway over Exalts at all (exempting Sidereals, of course). Every action they perform can break whatever hold fate has on them. Instead of buying a mango at the store, they can buy a pineapple. Instead of getting stepped on by Juggernaut and dying, they can rip his arms off and spin them around really fast to make a helicopter. Instead of being effected by physics, they can just not be effected by physics. Etc. All those things the Loom would otherwise force on them.

I can try to go find a citation somewhere, if it's important.

EDIT: To the ninjas, Golentan and Rosie, I understand that bit. But I was under the impression we were talking about replacing your old character with the direct inheritor of your previous character's shard. Which, while still capable of being plotted towards the Circle, my point was that it's unlikely they would fit in with that party at all, given the diversity of the people of the setting capable of Exaltation.

[Kyeudo]

I do agree that this can be interesting, but it does get a little trite to keep having to say "Well, this random person who could have been anywhere in the vast Earth+ sized Creation has now wandered directly into the four(ish) people that happened to be buddies with the Exaltation that random person inherited, among the billions of people in the world, across thousands of miles, and now inexplicably trusts them enough to become a wandering adventure-seeking hobo with them at the drop of a hat, and also inexplicably cares about whatever the hell they were doing at the time."

There is actually several in-setting reasons for this. The broadest one the setting calls Samsara and as far as I understand it it is like super-fate. It's the narrative force on which Creation runs. If it would make dramatic sense for two Lunars who in a previous incarnation were packmates to meet each other, Samsara can draw them together, even though both live in the Wyld and are unaffected by Fate. Circumstances arrange themselves so that both choose to go do whatever, and in the course of so doing they meet.

Of the other reasons for Exalts to meet are Lytek pulling a few strings to get a new Exalt some support, the sanctified bonds that unite a Circle together drawing their current incarnations together, a Lunar's blood debt to a former packmate leading him to rescue the new incarnation to fulfil the debt, and so on. You can usualy find a reason to bring one or two former characters' next incarnations right into the Circle without it breaking the setting's versimilitude.

[Drascin]

Plus, well, I like no resurrection thing. Sometimesa character having unfinished business is nice. It would be nice if combat wasn't so reliant on perfect defenses. I think it could work if the Celestial Perfects were toned down like the Terrestrial, and the Terrestrial's just lost theirs.

I don't mind the no resurrection thing either - as long as the game isn't crazy lethal and massively dependent on the motivations of the individual characters. But Exalted is both of those. It's a game that by fluff wants you to be heroic, and which tries to convince you that Exalts are these cool super-skilled guys that have epic duels and change the world, but where any combat turn you're not playing it massively careful there's a pretty big chance you're dead beyond repair, and everything your character had intended to do is lost unless your circlemates happen to want to honor your memory by continuing your objectives.

And about the reincarnation thing... the thing is, and that was my only point before, I don't honestly see the difference between a character with the same shard and another with a different one - they're still completely different people to the original, who shouldn't have the same motivations and drives (the Exaltation has, at most, a few flashbacks of previous lives. It does not influence the mindset of the person receiving it unless some Flaws are coming into play. I'd consider more of a reincarnation a guy who got the same recycled soul than whoever got the same Exaltation. Exaltation-transference is more a guy passing on the sauce to the next guy on the table when he's done with it), and who you have to get into the game somehow - might as well say it's a different one than contrive it being the just-renewed one. At least it being a different one that just happened to be operating somewhat nearby gives you the chance of making a backstory and giving you a valid excuse for why this guy has XP to making it equal to the rest of the group

[Tavar]

The result would be massive Celestial Exalt death due to Sudden Kill Combo. That's not really a good thing. It would be better if Willpower wasn't your "I matter in combat" resource, though.

Why? Terrestial combat isn't like that, is it?

EDIT: Also, the Storyteller's Manual says that freshly Exalted people are drawn to other Exalts of their kind to form packs, circles, brotherhoods or whatever due to the Exaltations.

I swear I remember a quote from a book that said the UCS specifically modified the Loom to have his exalts gather together, though I could be mistaken.

[The Rose Dragon]

Why? Terrestial combat isn't like that, is it?

If they are fighting Celestials, it kinda is. In fact, since two of their semi-perfects don't work against Charm-supplemented attacks, they can't even stand against other Terrestrials without some massive help.

[Xefas]

There is actually several in-setting reasons for this. The broadest one the setting calls Samsara and as far as I understand it it is like super-fate. It's the narrative force on which Creation runs. If it would make dramatic sense for two Lunars who in a previous incarnation were packmates to meet each other, Samsara can draw them together, even though both live in the Wyld and are unaffected by Fate. Circumstances arrange themselves so that both choose to go do whatever, and in the course of so doing they meet.

Of the other reasons for Exalts to meet are Lytek pulling a few strings to get a new Exalt some support, the sanctified bonds that unite a Circle together drawing their current incarnations together, a Lunar's blood debt to a former packmate leading him to rescue the new incarnation to fulfil the debt, and so on. You can usualy find a reason to bring one or two former characters' next incarnations right into the Circle without it breaking the setting's versimilitude.

I'm not really talking about verisimilitude. I purposely used "X is trite" rather than "X breaks verisimilitude", because they're two separate issues.

To give an example, I'm watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer right now. The main character is a cosmically chosen champion of justice and what-not, and the universe basically conspires to throw evil crap directly at her no matter where she goes. It does not break verisimilitude for every single ancient-when-the-world-was-young horror from beyond, every single Most Powerful X That Ever Was, every single Stuff Doesn't Work This Way Usually But This Is An Extreme Exception creature to show up at the high school/college she goes to.

It did, however, become rather trite after the first season or two. Every single person that is ever given a name and more than 8 words of backstory is, without exception, going to show up several episodes later as a time-distorting minor deity, or yet another super-apocalypse-demon, or whatever. It stops being special or interesting because that's what always happens, despite it not conflicting at all with the verisimilitude of the setting.

In the same way, sure, your group can adopt the catchphrase "Oops, Samsara!" every time someone dies. In the "Oh, you just took 55 lethal health levels of damage. Well, Oops, Samsara! Like two blocks away from the fight, someone is Exalting with your exact same shard and happens to be completely compatible with your circle! Luckily, we have Samsara to thank!" Sure, this might be a verisimilitudinous response, but it is so very much trite the 7th or 8th time it happens (and I'm not saying 'in a campaign', just 'ever in your lifetime of playing Exalted').

[Tavar]

I meant toning down both the perfect attacks and defenses(probably let the Terrestrials keep the non-charm perfects), though you'd have to seriously rework the damage system. Characters are just too fragile in default.

[The Rose Dragon]

Woo! Abyssal overdrive Charms!

If the entirety of the Ink Monkeys were devoted to nothing but Abyssals forever, I would not really care about the loss. Because I love Abyssals.

Someone needs to run an Abyssal game for me.

[tonberrian]

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over how awesome Chirality Prohibition Index is.

[Urpriest]

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over how awesome Chirality Prohibition Index is.

As someone with limited Exalted experience but a substantial knowledge of physics....does that mean what I think it means?

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over how awesome Chirality Prohibition Index is.

Oh, Chirality Prohibition Index is quite nice. It's just that Infernals already get enough love from everyone, and Abyssals need more sexy Charms.

Also, Abyssal game! Now!

[tonberrian]

As someone with limited Exalted experience but a substantial knowledge of physics....does that mean what I think it means?

As someone with limited knowledge of physics, I say ... maybe? Check it out for yourself in Ink Monkeys 37.

[Urpriest]

As someone with limited knowledge of physics, I say ... maybe? Check it out for yourself in Ink Monkeys 37.

Hmm...Chirality in physics is a general term for handedness...basically, what gets flipped in a mirror image. So Chirality Prohibition Index would basically be a charm that discourages asymmetry, which is essentially what's going on here. Roughly. Cool.

[golentan]

CPI seems hideously overpowered: given time it sweeps the world and even out into the wild and turns most everyone in it's reach into a cultist/soldier for the infernal? Because the wording on what you can order them to do seems to imply that that works.

If it survives being exposed from the blasphemy effect that kicks in at the ten mile radius (which should be justification for nuking it into oblivion for any local gods or exalts, literally) it's an instant "I win" charm for any infernal who has it and any interest in conquest or power. And even with the "nuke it" option, for ten motes and a willpower a day you force your enemy to run around doing major engineering projects or blowing up vast swathes of land (hundreds of locations per year) for relative cheaps, until they lose just because they don't have the resources to keep putting out the fires you light. And for a charm with no prerequisites that only takes essence 2? And if there are no nearby mortals, does it (as it seems to) just grow at a mile an hour until it encounters mortals to convert?

Am I misreading it?

[The Rose Dragon]

CPI seems hideously overpowered: given time it sweeps the world and even out into the wild and turns most everyone in it's reach into a cultist/soldier for the infernal? Because the wording on what you can order them to do seems to imply that that works.

The cult will ignore the Infernal, though, so you probably can't turn them into direct servants. You can turn them into people that advance your cause indirectly, but you can't place them under your command.

Compare Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe, which does pretty much the same thing without going through a thousand loops. Or Husband-Seducing Demon Dance, which can affect non-mortals (you may have missed the part where it affects only mortals) and can turn them directly into loyal followers.

[tonberrian]

CPI seems hideously overpowered: given time it sweeps the world and even out into the wild and turns most everyone in it's reach into a cultist/soldier for the infernal? Because the wording on what you can order them to do seems to imply that that works.

If it survives being exposed from the blasphemy effect that kicks in at the ten mile radius (which should be justification for nuking it into oblivion for any local gods or exalts, literally) it's an instant "I win" charm for any infernal who has it and any interest in conquest or power. And even with the "nuke it" option, for ten motes and a willpower a day you force your enemy to run around doing major engineering projects or blowing up vast swathes of land (hundreds of locations per year) for relative cheaps, until they lose just because they don't have the resources to keep putting out the fires you light. And for a charm with no prerequisites that only takes essence 2? And if there are no nearby mortals, does it (as it seems to) just grow at a mile an hour until it encounters mortals to convert?

Am I misreading it?

It could use a limit on how fast it could grow (one mile a week would be where I would peg it), but I'm not seeing the other issues. The cult is not a Cult - it only venerates the site in the abstract, not it's creator. Likewise, the effected mortals are rather poor soldiers, too, since they spend an hour every day studying the geometry. Inhabitants are too busy being creepy to do much else.

Also, each activation requires a couple weeks to start attracting mortals, and until it expands for the first time, it's vulnerable to countermagic. And you can't make them too close together.

Though the idea of having multiple different activations (with different prohibitions!) with overlapping areas of effect is very amusing to me.

[golentan]

No, I get that. But they ignore the infernal unless he interacts with them, rather than outright. As for the other charms, this has a stronger social attack potential (Essence + Occult straight rather than Socialize + Ability with an external penalty half the groups magnitude) AND implements a whole policy instead of a single addition or removal from it AND takes an hour rather than a whole month's set-up AND keeps growing rather than simply being a oneshot for those present the way husband seducing demon dance is.

[Xefas]

While I am absolutely loving Chirality Prohibition Index, I feel the need to point out that it sounds like Driven Beyond Death's sole purpose is to allow an Infernal to take that last health level of damage, and instead of dying, activate Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai to become a 40ft tall monster covered in tentacles and mouths while spending that action of total damage immunity giving an ostentatious monologue.

[The Rose Dragon]

While I am absolutely loving Chirality Prohibition Index, I feel the need to point out that it sounds like Driven Beyond Death's sole purpose is to allow an Infernal to take that last health level of damage, and instead of dying, activate Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai to become a 40ft tall monster covered in tentacles and mouths while spending that action of total damage immunity giving an ostentatious monologue.

Oh Jesus Malfeas has finally become Sephiroth. It finally happened. Infernals have jumped the shark that is Adorjan.

[Xefas]

Oh Jesus Malfeas has finally become Sephiroth. It finally happened. Infernals have jumped the shark that is Adorjan.

Y'know, Sephiroth isn't the only boss in the history of vidja games to have more than one form. I'm not sure why this would be more reminiscent of him than Dark Falz or similar.

Also, Follow the Leader reminds me of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance judges/laws. In fact, those judges seem to me now to be the perfect expression of She Who Lives In Her Name's darkest and most intolerantly frustrating aspects.

[The Rose Dragon]

Y'know, Sephiroth isn't the only boss in the history of vidja games to have more than one form. I'm not sure why this would be more reminiscent of him than Dark Falz or similar.

OK, he's become Xenohart.

[The_Snark]

Abyssals could already do that sort of thing via Birth of Sanity's Sorrow. Personally, I'm in favor of it.

[Jokasti]

Y'know, Sephiroth isn't the only boss in the history of vidja games to have more than one form. I'm not sure why this would be more reminiscent of him than Dark Falz or similar.

Also, Follow the Leader reminds me of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance judges/laws. In fact, those judges seem to me now to be the perfect expression of She Who Lives In Her Name's darkest and most intolerantly frustrating aspects.

1. NO COPYCAT
2. NO BANGAAS
3. NO FIRE

*law card*

1. NO COPYCAT
2. NO BANGAAS
3. NO FIRE

I don't think Swillin's judges would be that flexible.