[BitP:R] BleachitP: Reborn: OOC Thread 13

[tgva8889]

Sato Hachirou has a similar ability, is one of the oldest characters in the whole game, and no-one's ever cried foul due to it. His ability has other effects as well. As such, I see nothing wrong with this one.

Oh huh, he does.

I'm running low on ability ideas that fit Mio now that I've designed her zanpakuto shape. If someone already has an ability that basically does what that one I came up with does, then perhaps I'll go a different direction.

[Kuroimaken]

There is an even bigger concern with a bone-breaking ability. The weapon itself is blunt; that means no cuts. If a graze shatters bone, what the hell happens when/if he scores a direct hit?

Sucrose also makes a good point regarding two-handed "unwieldiness". For another in-game example, I would point you towards Kazuma (man, I sure exemplify after my characters a lot...), who may well be wielding daggers, but whose weapon's attacks go with a lot more speed than normal and become more unbalanced the stronger his opponent's Reiatsu is, leaving him in a very precarious position when they are not blocked or do not hit (Kazuma will become able to compensate somewhat for this basic flaw of his weapon, but only at great cost).

Have you considered perhaps making it a more gradual effect? Instead of breaking bones instantly, perhaps making it so that subsequent blows "eat" at the opponent's ability to defend (i.e. slowly cracking the bones), or making it so a strike makes their defenses more brittle over time, requiring secondary blows to shatter? This is STILL a powerful effect, mind you, but if the bone is supposed to become more unwieldy as you describe, it balances out better. It makes things a matter of who can land the most blows on the other first, or who can make the most decisive strike first.

[HirokatsuGoto]

please do not react to my responses as if i do not resepct your opinion...that is NOT the case..i am only trying to state my thoughts as they respond to yours

my answers below in RED

I did not say that it was not a drawback, but that it was not a balancing factor. If he needs the effect, he will use it, because losing some of your lifespan is considerably more acceptable than losing all of it. Thus, it does not prevent the effect from being used as needed, it does not weaken the effect, and thus it does precisely nothing to balance the combat utility of a near-absolute sanctuary effect.

(i see your point about the combat utility of it, however if you are constantyl aware that your ability in the future to help anyone is potentially severely lessened by your use or not of an ability...regardless isee your poitn onthe sanctuary-nature of it...having said that i think either scrapping it, or modifying it greatly (as you said with regards to opponents blows ending up at least still doing half the effect...that seems much mroe balanced...but the way FF talked about it being a longer ability too and thus taking the character out of the fight..is also dramatically and storywise a major drawback...still i see your point...do remember however that he can not "escape" whiel in this mode...it is a stationary effect and also is limited by the amount of time he can stay in Bankai in the first place...he cant fight while in it...but moving on)
Your suggestion of the sanctuary effect aging him more dramatically while he is in Bankai is perhaps more reasonable; it makes escape considerably more difficult, since he's slowing and dying at the same time. Maybe something like 'the fastest that he can heal is twice the speed at which his physical abilities weaken from aging,' thereby allowing his opponents' attacks to always have at least half effect. (good insight)

A 'big lava sword' or 'spiky sword with acid' or 'really powerful sword' do not break bones with even a light touch, unless there's a massive gulf between the wielder of the weapon and their opponent. They are powerful weapons, but they still need to get a decent blow in; a grazing blow wouldn't necessarily be crippling.

However, the 9th Division VC's (i stated clearly before that he only would be able to use this Bankai if he was ever promoted to Captain, or potentially asa Bankai allowed Vice Captain, but that would be somethign for others to decide...the designing of it was to be somethign he used as a Captain..thus the power is meant to be read as a Captain's Bankai)zanpaktou will always break bones if it makes contact at all. Thus, binary: they either get hit or they do not. (can you not deflect a strike with another zanpaktuo? it is a unique effect, and one that does not necessarily have to be impossible to overcome) With the 'big lava sword,' there are more options: they get hit, they do not, they manage to roll with the blow, so that they only get contact burns, rather than a massive, cauterized wound, or they only get grazed, resulting in a mild, cosmetic burn that demonstrates that their opponent can harm them, but cannot overwhelm them just yet. There is a gradient, rather than a yes/no statement. (there are lots of bones in the body...since the way fights go on here is aresult of planning and what is eventually "allowed" by the opponent..."catchign a grazed shot on the left pinky finger early (or "off hand" or "one rib" etc..)...woudl apotnetially show the ability quickly with little harm...then the fight woudl be much different..i as a player and the opponent as aplyer both have a means to tell an interesting story in a fight...unless the opponent "wanted" to be defeated quickly it would not have to happen...nor would I want it to)
Also, a weapon being two-handed is in no way an indication of unwieldiness. that is true but i specifcally talked of the fighting style so it woud be understood more clearly..it is similar to a "bo" but it is liek an oar...also, the poitn was that it is not a precise weapon as it is big and thus could not get inbetween nooks and crannies in defenses as easily...a staff "can" be a precise weapon...and whiel the fighting style is similar to that of a "bo" or staff...the weapon i described does not look liek that...it looks liek a big arm bone...not a fencing foil or dagger or spear or even regular sword oir even two-handed sword... its more of a blunt object....here is an "Eiku" Kata..but remember this is using a different weapon...the fighting in this style with a different weapon would be somewhat different...due to the difference in its shape Eiku video

As for what I mean by the reference to those who give up something of their character's abilities, it's simply that there is a certain maximum amount of power acceptable at any given tier. Thus, in order to gain the benefits of immense strength, which you replicate with the bone-breaking ability, they accept weaknesses in their basic abilities, such as lower speed, inferior kido, or weak zanjutsu.
I think this is a good and solid point, i made the sword and fighting style different to show that he is somewhat out of his normal skillset in Bankai form..whiel the power is potnetially great.. it would be limited becasue his skills do not lie in pure strength, his speed would be hindered as well, and he isn great with Kido regardless..

i coudl make that more clear however asi was not as clear wit hthat... but do rememebrr this is a Bankai for use as a Captain not a Vice Captain)

Edit: tgva, I don't have any particular objections to a Dividing Driver ability. Seems like any tactical applications beyond prevention of collateral damage would be removed by the fact that it happens instantly.

[Terry576]

@Hirokatsu: Oh, you mean you only want Bankai if he becomes Captain or something? While our concerns still apply, you do realize that several other characters who are not captains have a Bankai?

Just thought I'd mention it.

[Frozen_Feet]

Oh huh, he does.

I'm running low on ability ideas that fit Mio now that I've designed her zanpakuto shape. If someone already has an ability that basically does what that one I came up with does, then perhaps I'll go a different direction.

Maybe you could come up with a secondary effect for it? Hachirou's main ability is similar, but there are lot of little differences - for example, Hachirou's own physical body goes nowhere when it's in use.

The zanpakuto seems to have a theme of void, isolation and/or imprisonment - maybe a variant would be transporting an ally in the dimensional pocket, or a defensive technique where she's the only one to vanish?

There is an even bigger concern with a bone-breaking ability. The weapon itself is blunt; that means no cuts. If a graze shatters bone, what the hell happens when/if he scores a direct hit?

Presumably, it inflicts blunt trauma to flesh in addition to breaking bones. I don't see what the concern here is.

Sucrose also makes a good point regarding two-handed "unwieldiness".

Indeed. In fact, many big weapons are objectively better than lighter, single handed ones. A staff easily wins over many swords, despite being two-handed and blunt, simply because a staff is easier to use and having more momentum behind each blow. A longsword expert I know told that a relatively inexperienced staff wielder can hold his own against as many as six similarly skilled swordsmen.

Have you considered perhaps making it a more gradual effect? Instead of breaking bones instantly, perhaps making it so that subsequent blows "eat" at the opponent's ability to defend (i.e. slowly cracking the bones), or making it so a strike makes their defenses more brittle over time, requiring secondary blows to shatter? This is STILL a powerful effect, mind you, but if the bone is supposed to become more unwieldy as you describe, it balances out better. It makes things a matter of who can land the most blows on the other first, or who can make the most decisive strike first.

Instant osteoporosis, basically?

@Hirokatsu: Oh, you mean you only want Bankai if he becomes Captain or something? While our concerns still apply, you do realize that several other characters who are not captains have a Bankai?

Just thought I'd mention it.

Actually, that's not true. Karite is the only still-played character with Bankai who isn't a Captain.

There are several characters with plans for Bankai, but the characters don't actually hold that power yet. More to the point, each and every one of them still had the ability approved first.

[HirokatsuGoto]

thanks! my responses below in RED

i am not upset or angry..i am just responding to your concerns and thoughts

Well after reading the bankai I felt worried.

What Sucrose is saying is that most characters give up a massive amount of abilities in exchange for power. And the way you describe it is called "godmodding". Taking control of another's character.

well, isnt any "illusion" or "acid" or "poison" or even "thick hierro" godmodding in some way? they tell you what is going to happen to your character after they are attacked or "will" be attacked etc....
Yes, it would hurt a lot if they were hit, but "Bone-shattering" means they have no control over what happens. The response can't be "Dave takes the blow, and retaliates", or "Dave is hit, and staggers back", or anything else. It can only be "Dave's leg is now broken", or "Dave dodges the attack". Bone-Shattering is quite over-powered, much like Time Manipulation.
( can't it be... Dave parries the bone thing as he dodges out of the full force of the attack, but is caught on the left hand by a glancing blow from the bone...he yells in agony as he sees his ring finger and pinky finger with broken bones inside...he grabs his hand as he looks up at the man in Bankai..."his Bankai breaks bones on contact!!..i cant get touched again!!"... then continues)))But the main problem is:

A Bankai is supposed to a continuation of your Shikai's abilities.

Not like Soi Fon's Bazooka. Your shikai is the size of an average sword. (it is smaller than an average sword..but ok)
Why is your Ban Kai a freaking Claymore-Sized Staff, whose abilities don't really connect to your Shikai's? ( they do connect...as i replied and discussed in an earlier response... the effects are about "pain" and forcing the opponent to rethink "why" he is attacking..the effects of the blow are not necessarily life threatening by the mselves...only the further fighting after receivin those blows and potnetially more IS what is life threatening...and if they DO go on..they will be forced to feel the pain of that "choice"...it is linked... the form of it is bone and family themed too...
I agree with FF. Tone down the power a bit, and maybe just add a few abilities?

i am all for toning some it down some...or even scrappign some it... but there really arent TOO many abilities...bone skin...some kind of defense wit hthe bone and bone breaking attack...
@TGVA: I read the ability and I thought "MAR". Was that what you were going for?

[HirokatsuGoto]

@Hirokatsu: Oh, you mean you only want Bankai if he becomes Captain or something? While our concerns still apply, you do realize that several other characters who are not captains have a Bankai?

Just thought I'd mention it.

yes i only want to use it if he is Captain (i decided to work on thi now since their is potential for him to get promoted soonish since his Captain got promtoed to Royal Guard)

and i was told that NO Vice Captains were allowed Bankai...that it was some "rule" of the sim here...maybe it changed...sorry for the confusion

but yes..this is a Captains Bankai...even though he "offically" has achieved it...he cant use it outside his inner world...and he WONT use it unless he is Cpt (my rule on him...unless given different notice from higher ups here)

[tgva8889]

Maybe you could come up with a secondary effect for it? Hachirou's main ability is similar, but there are lot of little differences - for example, Hachirou's own physical body goes nowhere when it's in use.

The zanpakuto seems to have a theme of void, isolation and/or imprisonment - maybe a variant would be transporting an ally in the dimensional pocket, or a defensive technique where she's the only one to vanish?

Well, the ability doesn't actually make anyone vanish or actually travel anywhere, just mentally perceive things differently. I think the alternative abilities would have to do with mental-based things.

The ability is actually based on Inception's ideas of entering people's dreams and such, with the time perception thing. I'm not sure how well that would work but that was actually my inspiration.

[Kuroimaken]

Maybe you could come up with a secondary effect for it? Hachirou's main ability is similar, but there are lot of little differences - for example, Hachirou's own physical body goes nowhere when it's in use.

The zanpakuto seems to have a theme of void, isolation and/or imprisonment - maybe a variant would be transporting an ally in the dimensional pocket, or a defensive technique where she's the only one to vanish?



Presumably, it inflicts blunt trauma to flesh in addition to breaking bones. I don't see what the concern here is.




Indeed. In fact, many big weapons are objectively better than lighter, single handed ones. A staff easily wins over many swords, despite being two-handed and blunt, simply because a staff is easier to use and having more momentum behind each blow. A longsword expert I know told that a relatively inexperienced staff wielder can hold his own against as many as six similarly skilled swordsmen.



Instant osteoporosis, basically?



Actually, that's not true. Karite is the only still-played character with Bankai who isn't a Captain.

There are several characters with plans for Bankai, but the characters don't actually hold that power yet. More to the point, each and every one of them still had the ability approved first.

Ah, man, I'm not fond of a "this weapon versus that weapon" debates. I tend to defend the katana too much. Though I'll admit that a staff wielder with some basic knowledge can still inflict more damage than a sword user on a similar level - but he loses out in that his weapon can be more easily grasped than the swordsman's.

And yes, instant osteoporosis sounds like a good description. It also seems to go better with the whole theme of ancestors and growing old.

Keep in mind also, that someone with a broken arm can still actually MOVE said arm - it hurts like hell, he definitely doesn't have the same strength, and is risking tearing up muscle tissue and ligaments thanks to the exposed saliences of the broken bone. Though theoretically blunt trauma to the flesh is less worrisome than edged trauma, when combined with an instant fracture it might as well have the same effect - I'd think a doctor would rather treat a stab wound than a lead pipe wound. The pain is a lot worse as well, because by definition blunt force trauma is spread over a wider area. On the plus side, the likelihood of rupturing blood vessels is diminished, with the exception of trauma to the torso and abdomen.

[HirokatsuGoto]

thanks Kuro.. my responses in RED

again..im not upset or anything...just trying to respond

There is an even bigger concern with a bone-breaking ability. The weapon itself is blunt; that means no cuts. If a graze shatters bone, what the hell happens when/if he scores a direct hit?

bone would still shatter, but you would add huge blunt force trauma

Sucrose also makes a good point regarding two-handed "unwieldiness". For another in-game example, I would point you towards Kazuma (man, I sure exemplify after my characters a lot...), who may well be wielding daggers, but whose weapon's attacks go with a lot more speed than normal and become more unbalanced the stronger his opponent's Reiatsu is, leaving him in a very precarious position when they are not blocked or do not hit (Kazuma will become able to compensate somewhat for this basic flaw of his weapon, but only at great cost).

i see both yoru points onthis..and i am not saying big weapons cant be precise...the point was that THIS weapon is a big arm bone and not pointy and cant get in nooks and crannies (see my response to sucrose)...therefore accidental or precise blows are not as likely..

also as i responded...i am not so sure iwas as clear about the style in my initial description...i meant for Hiroaktsu's Bankai to be a different style o fighting and thus his speed and agility would be more limited havign to fight with such aweapon that his skills are not as good for...the bone woudl be rel heavy or soemthign..and since he is not uber strong it woudl sap his skills somewhat...so "Fast and precise" i snot really how this Bankai fight woudl work...as the form of it does not allow for him to utilize his natural skills...


Have you considered perhaps making it a more gradual effect? Instead of breaking bones instantly, perhaps making it so that subsequent blows "eat" at the opponent's ability to defend (i.e. slowly cracking the bones), or making it so a strike makes their defenses more brittle over time, requiring secondary blows to shatter? This is STILL a powerful effect, mind you, but if the bone is supposed to become more unwieldy as you describe, it balances out better. It makes things a matter of who can land the most blows on the other first, or who can make the most decisive strike first.

making it gradual is really liek the last thign i woudl want to have to do to it...id rather figure out anoheer way to work on the ability...not thta i absolutely "wont"...buti feel liek it woudl cheapen the ability and make it more of a Shikai style thign instead of a Bankai....mayeb i am wrong... i also did state that strong Arrancar Hierro woul d provide one more layer of protection on a bone area..so for those opponents they woudl have even more advance knowledge of the potnetial outcome...

i woudl rather make t he thing more unwieldly for Hirokatsu to use..

[tgva8889]

The problem with the ability is the binary nature of it. Either "You get hit and your bones break" or "You dodge." There's no in-between. Unless the ability itself changes from "instantly breaking any bones in the target area," it's not really going to get any better. That's what is being said.

Also, the limit of "This isn't his normal fighting style" isn't really much of a limit. It can be easily worked around through training in the new style, for example.

[InyutheBeatIs]

Okay, I realize that this may come across as me not reading anything, but I feel I have to ask because plot.

Is there anywhere I should be right now? I've got Sigint basically scanning the surroundings for everything, and I'm noticing a whole bunch of stuff and I'm not really sure where my place is at this point.

Sooooo...what do I do?

[Frozen_Feet]

Pico and drunken shenanigans.

...

Pico and drunken shenanigans!

[InyutheBeatIs]

Pico and drunken shenanigans.

...

Pico and drunken shenanigans!

I'M TRYING I'M TRYING!!!!



Seriously though, I did post Pico downing a bottle of as-of-yet-unnamed alcohol outta nowhere, and I was waiting for someone else to post something so I can get the ball rolling.

[Frozen_Feet]

Also, big bad Finnish guy commenting how Rosa switched speech colors all of a sudden.

[InyutheBeatIs]

Also, big bad Finnish guy commenting how Rosa switched speech colors all of a sudden.

...Okay, THAT I forgot about until just now. I was wondering what exactly he was referencing, but now I fear a meme is coming.

In other words, I'll get right on that.

[HirokatsuGoto]

my last post of the night,
i do not think the bone breaking is as binary as everyone thinks.. or if it is...it is just as binary as any othr bankai ability when it comes to other people...

for example all the illusion based stuff...how does that givethe other person a chance to do anythign other than react to its effects?

i think if this was anot a two way fighting RP community where both sides haveea say in how the fight goes nad how to make it exciting thne you woudl probably be right... but there are holes in just about every single special ability peopel make..ways that it can be abused... it comes down to the player at the end of the day..they can either maek the story fun to read and be fun for the other side...if they dont then what fun is it.... its not instakill or anything...

---

as for the fighting style being different than what i am used to being a true "limit"... well how can i word it so it makes more sense? how can i make it work with this idea? i thought isaid it was heavy and he isnt that strong, it isnt a agiel weapon to wield so it takes away his agility and speed...

i dunno...im a little sleepy...i will reread responses in the morning nd try to respond better...

id love to hear as many thoughts on all of this... and thanks to everyone for all your responses so far!

i do appreciate it all

[tgva8889]

^: Yes, Illusion-based abilities do have that problem. That's why we're generally opposed to them.

Frozen: Try releasing Bakudo 61 and replacing it with something that restricts the body less. Perhaps a rope-based Bakudo that doesn't inhibit speech nearly as much.

[Terry576]

Well because Hiro, over time he'll get used to the weight and such. And look at Karite:

His Bankai can legitimately freeze you in ice generated in spiritual pressure. It isn't terrible, because if he's releasing his Bankai, that's assuming your opponent has the power to stop something like that. Even if it does, it still leaves a wide variety of responses:

Karite attempts to freeze:
You dodge the attempt
You are grazed by it, giving frostbite to your arm
You are hit on one side by it, freezing part of you

Et cetera. Hiro, no matter what, no matter how much purple prose you throw into a sentence, the fact remains that there are two possibilities when hit by his Bankai:

Your bones are broken, or you dodge it. Even if it 'grazes' you, it breaks bones. So it remains completely binary.

[Wahrheit]

Possible chant for Bakudo 21: Sekienton.

"Sing, ye broken-winged crane! Feathers descend upon the autumn frost and smoke lurks within the reeds!"

Yay/nay?

[horngeek]

Sounds good to me.

Incidentally, Mortal World?

[Wahrheit]

Posting there as soon as I finish Magatsu. Incidentally, I now realize that his breakfast time must be at least slightly nightmarish.

EDIT: Annnd Rex has just given an in to anyone near the school who wants to help fight Cassandra.

[KnightDisciple]

Right, so, apologies to Edge, but I'm doing a short timeskip with Vicente. It may not be fully caught up to the "present", but it's closer than it was before.

Draken, I'm not taking him all the way to the throne room in case you want to have a minion intercept Vicente or something.

[Kuroimaken]

Posting there as soon as I finish Magatsu. Incidentally, I now realize that his breakfast time must be at least slightly nightmarish.

EDIT: Annnd Rex has just given an in to anyone near the school who wants to help fight Cassandra.

*cracking knuckles* "No troublemakers in MY SCHOOL."

[Kayne650]

All right, I've been super busy lately, but I'll get to work a response for Nasumi and Naraku. Also, for Draken:

Spoiler

Show

Daisuke touched Naraku's neck. I'm not sure if I made that clear, but I was wondering if Naraku still had his rot-touch thing going on. Because if so, I need to factor that in to his response.

Posting there as soon as I finish Magatsu. Incidentally, I now realize that his breakfast time must be at least slightly nightmarish.

EDIT: Annnd Rex has just given an in to anyone near the school who wants to help fight Cassandra.

Aw, is Cassandra going to end up losing every fight she's in?

I'm pretty sure she can take three kids, but Hasunaga getting involved won't leave Cassandra looking pretty.

[Draken]

Kayne:

Spoiler

Show

Naraku's rot is not a passive ability, it is active, and right now he's not rotting anything.

[Frozen_Feet]

Your bones are broken, or you dodge it. Even if it 'grazes' you, it breaks bones. So it remains completely binary.

... or you block it with your Zanpakuto or defensive power like Bakudo, or you prevent the hit with a Cero or some other a counter-strike, or...

Additionally, like Hirokatsu said, there are lot of bones in a body. Getting your pinky finger or a single teeth crushed is not game-breaking. So there's still narrative room for "small, insignificant injury".

I still hold the singular bone-crushing ability is not what makes the ability "overpowered" - it's the combination with extreme speed, allowing Hirokatsu to hit his opponent at his leisure.

Several fixes have been suggested - I think Kuroimaken's idea of slow-advancing osteoporosis is best, as it keeps the spirit of the power while toning it down to non-game-breaking levels.

@Kayne: what are you talking about? Cassandra pretty conclusively beat Mihail there.

@terry: one more thing - Sora and Izumi are on different timeframes. If I have it right, Izumi and Cassandra are in the "evening of last day" from Karite's point of view.

[Wahrheit]

So I was planning some more of Rex's future development, and realized something. We've already established that he's starting to figure out how to use hirenkyaku in melee combat to augment strikes; once he refines it a fair deal he'll start calling it "Hochfliegenderadlerfaust" ("Soaring Eagle Fist," and one hell of a mouthful). As Quincy, by their nature, are less durable than Shinigami, the bone-breaking nature of the technique poses more of a problem. I was thinking that eventually (i.e. way down the line) he could figure out how to use a variant of the way he gathers reiatsu to his hand to form his bow to instead create a cushion, letting the reiatsu absorb his end of the impact to lessen the hurt to his poor abused knuckles. The very final stages of the technique would basically amount to firing his bow at the moment he punches, causing far more damage but at the expense of rapidly depleting his reserves of energy.

After coming up with this, I realized I accidentally devised Quincy Shunko. Opinions?

[Terry576]

I don't have a Quincy, no opinion.

FF, get ready. Sora's gonna go tell Yui the graveyard is destroyed.

Of course she already knows this.

But he doesn't know that.

[Kuroimaken]

If nothing else, Quincy should be able to develop "Shunko" with greater ease than Shinigami. As I see it, Shunko is incredibly hard to perform/control because it requires the user to release a great amount of Reiatsu and keep it in a volatile state as close to his/her body as possible without actually releasing it all, similar to grasping a sword with only one's fingertips. This requires double the focus - releasing and grasping. Quincy, on the other hand, manipulate spirit particles that are already there, and should thus have less trouble with it, as they only need to keep it cohesive after drawing the energy in.

My idea with Kazuma's miniplot involving the Touki house involves discovering what I tentatively call "reverse Shunko" for now - which would basically consist of accumulating Reiatsu inside the Shinigami's body, then attacking the enemy and pushing said Reiatsu into the opponent's body. Being an alien energy, the natural response of the afflicted opponent's body would be to expel it through the path of least resistance as quickly as possible. Which would cause all sorts of inside-out nastiness such as muscles tearing, blood vessels bursting, etc..