Final Fantasy d6 (Complete System)

[elmerg]

The only thing I dislike bout ffd6 is the max level... Max lvl 15 does not feel like Final Fantasy but everything is great

A quick and easy, but not quite sure how effective, kludge is to bump it up to 30 and use 1/4 level instead of 1/2 level for anything that currently uses 1/2 level. It's also not too hard to port a number of things back over to the old 30-level version (we just did this for the Dark Knight in our FFd6 game, as well as a couple abilities for the Engineer which had a better mechanical setup in the new version).

[War Planets]

Greetings all that love this system. I joined this site because of this system, and because I have a question, and a possible suggestion.
I am currently creating a campaign that is roughly based in the world of Final Fantasy (the first one) using the rules from the Final Fantasy Tactics section. But I have no questions with those parts (they were well written and make sense, good job Dust).

My question is in regards to the Gemini equipment property:
When you add the Gemini property to a weapon or piece of armor is the added trait of the same tier or do you have to buy both items to combine them with Gemini? Example: I have a Tier 2 Shield and give it the Gemini property, making it also a Blade weapon. What would be the damage of the Blade attack, would I have to buy the Blade weapon that is being incorporated into the Geminied Shield, would the damage be based on the Tier of the Shield, or would I have to buy a Tier 2 Blade and add the Shield properties to it since it is the more expensive? Applicable Scenario: Level 1 Warrior buys Tier 1 Heavy Armor, a Tier 1 Blade, and a Tier 2 Shield. The property chosen for the Shield is Gemini. Could he attach his Tier 1 Blade to the Tier 2 Shield so that he can still use potions? If he does this could he theoretically buy a Tier 1 Shield for his off-hand and use his Shield-Blade in his primary?

My suggestion is in regards to the Limit Break system:
I really like the Limit Break system that is in place but with only one minor issue: it takes 3 Destiny Points to activate a Limit Break, any Limit Break, no matter the level, and the damage augmentation of a Limit Break is based on the points used to make the Limit Break not the level of the player. This makes your first Limit Break useless and never used later on since if you have to spend 3 Destiny Points to activate one a person will always select the third Limit Break over the first one. The idea that I am putting in my campaign is to decrease the cost of using a Limit Break by a number of Destiny Point equal to the number of later Limit Breaks you have unlocked.
Translation: When you get your first Limit Break it will cost 3 Destiny Points to activate, when you unlock your second Limit Break is will also cost 3 Destiny Points to activate but your first Limit Break now only costs 2 Destiny Points to activate instead. And when you unlock your 3rd Limit Break, it costs 3 Destiny Points to activate, your 2nd Limit Break now costs 2 Destiny Points to activate, and your 1st Limit Break now only costs 1 Destiny Point.
However, this idea of mine would only work in a campaign with a mid to low accumulation of Destiny Points or else every attack a player makes at level 15 would be their 1st Limit Break.

Lastly I am curious about the summoning system:
It seems like a very high Destiny cost to summon and they don't stay around for very long. It might be because I have not used the summoning system yet but it just doesn't seem to be worth the cost.


Thank you very much for making this system, it is very enjoyable.

Edit: A thought for the Black Mage's Innate.
What about using the the Golden Gaze Ability as the Innate since the golden eyes is the trademark of Black Mages throughout all Final Fantasy. Or how about incorporating the Power to Burn ability from the first edition as the Innate or as a new Ability to replace the Golden Gaze, if Golden Gaze is used as the Innate.

[DoubleN]

I just have quick question relating to the gemini equipment.

If a character is equipped with a Gemini Ranged/Blade weapon, which attribute do they use for the attack? May they use either of the three allowed attributes, or is it restricted to Power/Resolve for melee attacks and Dexterity for Ranged attacks?

Also, I must say it is such a bummer that Dragoons can still be hit with Group attacks during Jump. To me, that seemed like the whole purpose of the ability. To be in the air and out of harms way when the boss decides to drop is AoE on you.

I understand that balance has to be taken into consideration, but I liked the idea a previous poster had regarding Super Jump from FFXI. Perhaps Dragoons can have the option to avoid group attacks once per combat/session while in the middle of jump with a Super Jump ability add-on.

Currently with my group I am playing with, we agreed that Jump can avoid Group attacks, but not local. And Jump cannot be used again on the turn the dragoon lands nor the turn after.

I look forward to the bestiary and future updates, keep up the good work :)

[Lord Badguy]

I've always written the rules with the idea that the 'casting' of the spell refers to any point during the process between when the player announces what they're doing and when the spell resolves - lights flash, allies get healed, and more likely, enemies become goo.

Thank you for this bit of versatility. It also means I can Escalate myself down to critical HP to proc SOS-Haste and finish the spell in the same round, if I need to. And that makes me a happy camper. ^_^

Also, side question:

While spells cannot crit, can physical attacks granted by spells (like the blue magic Drill Shot) still crit and proc things like Follow-Through/Winning-Streak/Limit-Breaks(if low on hp), be affected by Save the Day, etc?

Because if so, there is a very silly Blue Mage / Gambler build I need to make, that is in no small part inspired by Gurren Lagann. =P

Thanks for all of your time developing this game and answering out questions!

[Falcon777]

Hey Dust, long time no see! I have underlined my questions to highlight them.

I was reading the rule book again and remembered something I had meant to ask you before: Why is spell damage calculated based off of PWR instead of MND? While I understand the aspect of wanting to balance spellcasting classes vs melee classes (and everyone else), this separation is quite different from the standard where the same stat is used to govern both spell damage and any kind of mana bonus (which in this game is actually quite large, even if you are a black mage).

And of course after remembering this I then remembered that redmages (obviously my favorite class as is represented by my avatar) have that ability, Charismagic, that basically *fixes* the problem that I felt the game had, though of course only for those people willing to play that class over any of the other spell casting classes. So the question of this second paragraph is: have you had any problems where players playing redmages using Charismagic (such an incredibly powerful skill for the class that it is an absolute must) have outstripped black mages and white mages in both mp and spellcasting ability? Given that red mages with that ability do not need to balance between PWR and MND (I assume that anyone playing the class goes into it already accepting the idea that their character will heavily favor finesse over force [which of course makes multiclassing into time mage for the Mind over matter ability quite tempting]), and that they are easily able to cast more quickly (Fastcast [coughcoughCRIMSONSEALcoughcough] plus Sagacity plus the quick spell=win!), it almost seems as if red mages would end up dominating the spectrum of spellcasters.

Of course my opinion on the spell damage and mana points split between PWR and MND could be just a pet peeve of mine and mostly a non issue for other people, in which case the second question would be moot.

And then there was a third question: The change from a level thirty based game to a level fifteen based game seemed a little arbitrary (I'm not forgetting that short while where you had considered a level eight based game). What was your reasoning for changing it? I know you're not going to change it back (waaaaaaaaaaaaay too many calculations that you've spent far too much time on already), but I was kind of curious about it.

In any case, I still want to thank you very much for making this game!!!!! It seems very interesting, and of course I'd love to get a chance to actually play it.

Falcon777

[Valnnar]

While spells cannot crit, can physical attacks granted by spells (like the blue magic Drill Shot) still crit and proc things like Follow-Through/Winning-Streak/Limit-Breaks(if low on hp), be affected by Save the Day, etc?

Discussion: Using Follow-Through, Spell Burst, and Destiny Points to potentially gain many extra attacks.

Yeah, we have been curious about this for a while. Let's get some clarification on the things in the game that count as an attack, and can therefore crit, and proc things like Follow-Through or Spell Burst.

Let's picture a scenario where "Drill Shot" can crit the same as a basic attack can. . . With a weapon that has both the Follow-Through and Spell Burst "Drill Shot" properties on it, some amazing things can happen.

1. Character attacks and lands a critical.
2. Both Follow-Through and Spell Burst "Drill Shot" are activated.
3. Does Follow-Through Crit? And if so, can a follow-through crit proc Spell Burst "Drill Shot"?
4. Does/Can "Drill Shot" Crit? And if so, does it proc Follow-Through and Spell Burst "Drill Shot"?

Second question. . . When using a destiny point to add to an attack roll, do you treat the initial roll as being enhanced? (I roll to hit, and get a 4 and a 5, for a total of 9. If I use a Destiny Point and the added roll lands on a 3 does that mean the original roll is now 12, and thus a crit? Or would it just be 9 + 3 to hit?) If so. . . can this work on "1,000 Needles"? Easy 1,000 damage with a Destiny Point.

With the combination of the above, and a high crit chance one could potentially use destiny points for this method which could create more potential damage than "Meteorain".

Clarity would help. Cause dang.

ps: Follow-Through currently only says it won't activate more Follow-Through procs, or limit breaks. Says nothing about Spell Burst.

[Valnnar]

Also a small note to Falcon777. . . It seems to me that Dust has put one AMAZING caster ability available in each of the caster classes. Thus making them more attractive for "Dipping". Mind Over Matter in Time Mage, Charismagic in Red Mage, Sapphire Seal and Escalate in Blue Mage, and MP Stroll in White Mage.

My biggest beef is that Black Mage doesn't have any abilities that I would put on par with those others that I just listed, at first glance. And Though Crystal Cannon seems quite iconic and powerful, it's INCREDIBLY counter productive for most builds within this system. So much so, that I'm not even letting my crew use it. I manufactured another Limit Ability to give our Black Mage the power he was after, without absolutely destroying his flexibility.

But I like the idea of each caster having a single piece of the OP pie, and if you can manage to get them altogether at the same time. . . . You are a max level power caster.

[Falcon777]

Ah, I see, I did not notice that trend. Hmmm...True true, a white mage's mp stroll is amazing, expecially when you consider that a red mage double casting each round via haste and crimson seal is going to run out of mp really quickly. Though, I suppose if we are getting technical, a time mage's blink ability sounds more like it would help with spellcasting itself than mind over matter would.... Hmmm, well, favored spell would ALMOST make the list, though it still doesn't really compare to charismagic and mp stroll.

Meh, dipping is still pretty hard, what with it costing 3 destiny per change (so a total of 6 destiny to go there and back again [yes, that was a hobbit reference]), so you'd have to be really blessed with destiny to do so.

Falcon777

[Valnnar]

Subject: Alternative Rules for (WoP) Main/Sub Class system.

Currently The system that I am using doesn't use the normal class changing rules. I wanted to use a system with a primary class and a sub-class, which would allow a character the Innate-Abilities from both classes. This has created some very interesting Combinations. However, the power level is naturally a bit higher across the board. Though I think you could come up with much more powerful options if you were power gaming, and not worrying about the DP cost.

With the system I adapted you pick a primary class and a sub class, much like the FFXI rule set adaptation talks about. However, you get the innate-ability from both jobs, and you get a sub-job ability at level 3-7-11-15*, and a if you sub-job is a caster you get a spell (if applicable) only on odd levels. You get to use the highest hp and mp progression of either class, and for avd/acc/skills you can take your primary classes stats, or an average of both (whichever is higher). You can equip anything from either class list, and should get one limit ability around level 8-10.

* Intended to be given post level 15, through a side-quest.

At any point the player may spend 1 DP outside of combat to switch his sub-job over to his primary. However, when laying out your abilities you will have to drop some of the ones that you get from your previous Primary Job. You can switch to new abilities when you make the change. Whichever abilities you have already purchased on your main class must be the abilities that are used now that it is a sub-job. Likewise, you must keep whichever abilities you chose for your sub-job now that it is your primary, simply add extras that you should have at your level. At the end of a chapter or "Boss-Fight" anyone can free switch their primary/secondary jobs with each other if they want. Anyone can switch their class orientation during combat for 3 DP and a slow-action. Onion Knight allows switching outside of Combat without a DP cost, and can switch in combat as a slow-action at the cost of 1 DP.

To clarify the above: If you are a Warrior/Blue Mage at level 7, you would have 2 Blue Mage and 7 Warrior class abilities at this point. Let's say the Blue Mage Abilities are Observe, and Escalate. If you were to spend the DP and Switch to Blue Mage/Warrior, you will now have 7 Blue Mage Abilities and only 2 Warrior abilities. Observe and Escalate MUST be apart of your new complete ability set, and the 2 Warrior abilities you are left with MUST be ones that you already had chosen while Warrior was still your Primary. If you had never taken Mad Rush, you do not have access to it when you make Warrior your new sub-job.

Also I made everyone have to use one of their level 1 abilities on a Shared Ability, since nobody even wanted to look at the list at early levels because they thought they were gimping themselves. So level 1 starts the heroes with 1 main class ability, 1 shared ability, 1 main class spell (if applicable), 1 sub class spell (if applicable), and 1 DP (with quote)

I'm still working on the 2-class approach with my play group, but so far it has produced some really cool results while not deviating too far from the core mechanics of the game.

I did this because it makes sense with my game. . . And I didn't want members of my group pouring over every single ability combination in the game, trying to chart out a max level character with multiple class changes. I have some power gamers who may make this choice in my group (myself included). Also I'd rather have the DP saved for truly epic things, rather than simply being fuel to achieve a specific class build. This way allows the player to have less initial options for class optimization, but we are still finding new and exciting combinations so at the moment I'm not worried about limiting the system a little bit.

[DoubleN]

I ended up finding the answer to my question in the FFVIII section of the pdf. Funny find.

One thing I found curious is that the Red Mage Spellblade Job Ability seems a little out of place. Spellblade sounds a lot like what Vivi and Steiner had going on in FFIX, and Vivi was a black mage. Red Mages in FFXI had enspells that allowed them to give weapons elemental strike, but they never cast a whole spell from a sword swing like Spell Bursts implies. Perhaps you could cycle Ammunition onto Red Mage, Spellblade onto Black Mage, and then expand upon Rangers as huntsmen. Instead of having a Job Ability that gives them Elemental Strike, perhaps a job ability that gives them their choice of damage perk against a single type of enemy. Or give rangers actual ammunition they can buy, like Ninja have tools they can throw.

[squiggit]

I don't really like that idea... Physical attacks already feel too good as is for black mages... encouraging it any further takes Black mages out of their niche. Conceptually spellblade is a very battlemagey concept anyways, which suits Red a lot more than black. Ammunition on Red would be semi-redundant with Fencer... and I don't see why Rangers losing it is helpful to the class.

Subject: Alternative Rules for (WoP) Main/Sub Class system.

I'd really like this system on a character I was playing with in my last game, basically a Dark Knight who splashed into Warrior for a few utilities.... though it doesn't really sound like it plays nice with people who want to take a little bit of everything.

My biggest beef is that Black Mage doesn't have any abilities that I would put on par with those others that I just listed, at first glance.

It is sort of funny that the offensive doomsday caster class has mostly utilitarian talents.

I do think Favored Spell could fit that niche petty well though if it wasn't so restricted in use (though I might be colored since I just don't like the 'once per session' rule in the first place).

[awahl]

I'd really like this system on a character I was playing with in my last game, basically a Dark Knight who splashed into Warrior for a few utilities.... though it doesn't really sound like it plays nice with people who want to take a little bit of everything.

That was sort of his goal. We are the power power gamers in our group of friends. It isn't so much we try and do this, but it always happens due to some off the wall combo of classes that made sense when taking a character from our head and puting it on paper. This game in particular seems to embrace "multiclassing" heavily to create your perfect character and that just looked problematic for our group.

In the end, I am enjoying it a lot. Having two Innates has made for some interesting combos as well and somewhat makes up for of the lack of job change options (aside from Blue Mage, since you lose their uniqe flair of "two Innates" when multiclassing with Observe).

[squiggit]

That was sort of his goal. We are the power power gamers in our group of friends. It isn't so much we try and do this, but it always happens due to some off the wall combo of classes that made sense when taking a character from our head and puting it on paper. This game in particular seems to embrace "multiclassing" heavily to create your perfect character and that just looked problematic for our group.

In the end, I am enjoying it a lot. Having two Innates has made for some interesting combos as well and somewhat makes up for of the lack of job change options (aside from Blue Mage, since you lose their uniqe flair of "two Innates" when multiclassing with Observe).

Oh I get the reasoning. It makes sense and, like I said, it seems like it can lead to some really fun options for people who really want to dedicate themselves to a certain archetype (like I said earlier, splashing into nonmage classes as a mage(or vice versa) feels really punishing... and certain classes have a lot of power stocked into their innate and feel bad when you swap out of it to pick something else up).

I just also know I really enjoy having Night Sword and Last Resort from Dark Knight on my Warrior/samurai... for example!

If there's anything I dislike about the idea outright it'd be the way swapping primary and secondary allows you to partially redo your abilities. It feels like it'd lend itself to reinventing your character on short notice (even with the restrictions) rather than playing a hybrid.

How does the system handle magic? If my secondary class is a magic user do I get penalized on how often or when I learn spells? And if so how much?

[Valnnar]

How does the system handle magic? If my secondary class is a magic user do I get penalized on how often or when I learn spells? And if so how much?

Characters that are interested in class swapping usually just roll up a secondary character sheet created with the restrictions that I talked about earlier.

On every odd level that your sub-job would normally learn a spell, you are allowed to learn a spell from your Sub-Jobs spell list. When swapping your classes, the spells work just like abilities. You have to keep the ones you already learned on your sub, when making it your new main.

The class swapping in my system is meant to represent a character changing their focus and unlocking their hidden potential.

IE: A Dark Knight/Black Mage who in a dire moment of need swaps his classes, and blows a giant gaping whole through a blast shield with a super nuke spell that the party never knew he had. And for the rest of the session is overflowing with dark/elemental energy that is arcing off of his body and frying anything that he would set his anger upon.

-"His veins throb over the surface of his pale skin with a deep purple, and his breath emits a subtle wispy miasma. There is no longer any white in his eyes. . . Is this even the same being as before? I'm shaking. . ." -Cerin Braver

[Valnnar]

Question: What constitutes a "damaging attack" when building chain points as a monk?

-Does the extra attack from Follow-Through Count?
-Does spell burst "Drill Shot" count?
-Does spell burst "Fira" Count?
-Does Whirling Spear from Dragoons work?
-Does Quick Hit from Thief work?
-Does Counter Attack work?

[ThreadOfFate]

Subject: Character Sheets

Ran a test session of the system (level 5) a few days ago.

I'll post feedback after I've gathered it, but for now, I wanna share something I spent some time on.

When looking through the PDF, it's really well organized and put together and illustrated and polished...until the character sheet, which is (let's face it), pretty lame.

So, I went into Illustrator and whipped up some shiny looking ones. I've got two versions, with the only difference being on the last page. In both versions, the last page is a "spells" page. One of them contains a few lines for a brief description of the spell, the other contains just a lot of spell name boxes for what is essentially just a list.

I'll be releasing periodic style updates to these, and I would absolutely love any feed back you guys have.

Find them here:
FF Sheet, default

No Spell Descriptions

The "Final Fantasy Infinite" logo and name is for my particular FF game.

Issues I am aware of and have yet to fix:

• The 25% and 50% in the HP/MP boxes is a bit too light
• The skill list is missing "Systems"

[Trisk]

Friend is starting a level 2 game, running into some serious balance issues.

The primary issue is Red Mages, who at level 2 picked up Sagacity (for time magic) Charismagic and Heirloom arcane weapon along with full armor/shield with attribute bonuses to mind giving him a totaly of 17 mind.

Now assuming attribute granted stats from EQ give MP he's rolling with 42 MP at level 2, with his spells dealing damage from his mind stat along with his physical damage scaling off his mind. He's packing 5 in dex fir the extra finesse and the rest in Res giving him 46 HP and 12 ARM/MARM.

Because of sagacity he has access to time magic where he grabs Burn Ray and Meteorite.

Because of Charismagic Meteorite deals 51+2d6 to everyone for 8 MP and Burn Ray deals 68+2d6 to a single target. Neither have elements and so resistances/weaknesses aren't a concern which is something of a double edged sword, but if he ever encounters magic resistant enemies he still has his rod to follow up (thankfully without spell burst) for 34+2d6 damage on a passable accuracy which is about 25% more than the Samurai.

So we now have a Red Mage who can heal the party better than the white mage, spell nuke better than the blackmage and melee better than the samurai with a few niggles here and there.

Now maybe I've missed something but charismagic has allowed the redmage to undo their one weakness, semi poor MP scaling, and stack both MP Reserves and Magic/Physical damage all off of one stat. Dex can be used in place of Mnd but why bother since dex is largely just for finesse dumping/1/2 specific weapon types.

Thoughts? I'm have two thoughts on the matter.

One, charismagic should be removed/significantly altered. Red Mages should have to have Pow and Mnd to keep up spellwise with casters, if they want to do everything they should suffer in some areas. A fighter who can cast cure on himself and AOE magic/elemental on specific weak enemies from a spell pool that is larger than specific casters is solid without charismagic and horribly broken without it.

Two, MP should be less scaled off MND, perhaps MND/2 to make classes more important in the calculation. I'm not sure how playtesting works but I find adventures have less fighting than your standard FF game and such less MP is not so much of an issue that reducing the pool wouldn't be a big issue.

An additional concern I have is that arcane weapons have no drawback and provide an oppertunity for casters to effortlessly deal damage equal to classes who focus on it. While I admit physical classes have other bonuses to make up for it (pommel strike/dual-wielding/etc) and most mage classes have poor accuracy (which is less of an issue at higher levels as class bonuses start to fade in importance as levels increase) the red mage has neither of these issues (flourish/decent acc score).


That said, I really love the work done on this so far, other than some very scary balance issues (class changing, a red mage can swap at level 12 or so and pick up a scary spell pool, all helped by sagacity allowing him to nab whatever he wants from other trees. He could spend level 15 as a blue mage and grab that full spell tree, hypothetically)


Edit:

On that subject, time magic. While I haven't explored it being balanced in the Time Mages tree, cursory comparing it makes me think Time Magic is severely overpowered compared to black.

Compare two spells I mentioned earlier.

Burn Ray (5 MP), deal PWRx4 non elemental, single target

and

Meteorite (8 MP), deal PWRx3 non elemental, group

to

Fire (5 MP), deal PWRx3 Fire to Single target or PWRx1 Fire to Group.


Now, the cons, time magic has to pick two spells and it's non elemental. Slightly higher AOE cost, cannot benefit from weaknesses which are statistically more beneficial than resistances are scary (according to monster creation rules)

Pro, the damage is way more cost efficient for time magic and it cannot be blocked by resistances. It costing two spells is negated by the fact that a black mage would need at least two elemental spells to avoid being countered.

When it comes to AOE the time mage just wins out entirely. Single target is arguable because of elemental weakness but even that's iffy. On bosses, where magic seems to come into play more Burn Ray will likely be far more consistent (and on a red mage who can grab elemental magic too!) Not to mention that unlike all the spells mentioned Meteorite is unreflectable.

That said, forgetting damage spells, the Time Magic spell list has vastly more utility, Illusion is incredibly useful (especially low level, Heroic check to counter?) Analyze, Sprint (preventing melee from engaging them period), Enervate can be used as a x6 nuke on constructs.

Eject itself is a Force Check that causes 1/2 MAX (meaning used twice kills anyone) and while it doesn't work on Large creatures and has a high cost there's no rules against bosses or other scary enemies. Not to mention that it can be maintained to force melee creatures helpless for apparently limitless duration (according to text of course)

Black Magic has sleep at good cost, Poison which does 1xPWR and a chance of inflicting Poison (which is admittedly pretty scary if it's not resistable by the boss(it probably is) and they have less than 400 HP (the damage of another spell will easily outscale poisons damage over time)

Hex is pretty nice as well but falls into the same iffy resistable.


That said, I wouldn't say Black Mages are trumped by Time, but the fact Red Mages gain access to that tree, along with White and Black with a single job ability is very scary, where one has strengths and weaknesses the Red Mages ability to cherry pick the best from all of them (and then stack Mnd to do great with all of them too) is scary.

[squiggit]

I have to agree with the above that the red mage's kit is really good... almost entirely because of Charismagic. Combined with an arcane weapon (doubly so if you multiclass for mind over matter) you basically get to be a one stat class, which is huge when you look at everyone else, who need to two stats to function and often get some decent benefit from their off stat, not counting RES of course, since that helps everyone.

I do think your particular example is a special case though, since being able to start off with all the right enchantments like that (remember, it essentially gives him a 5 level advantage in terms of attributes) seems like the GM giving you guys a lot of leeway.

He could spend level 15 as a blue mage and grab that full spell tree, hypothetically

Well, as it's written right now you just need one even level in blue mage to pick up observe and then you can switch into any class you want and still learn all your blue magic.

Red Mages not gaining anything at 13 or 15 seems like it's begging for disaster too, since it means a red mage can multiclass into black or white and pick up two ancient spells with no real risk to themselves at all.

I'll be releasing periodic style updates to these, and I would absolutely love any feed back you guys have.

I love those character sheet designs, unfortunately can't think of anything to criticize them yet. They'd be even more awesome though if you could make them into writable PDFs for digital use.

[Trisk]

Not to mention some killer abilities in other trees that class changing afford anyone, notable class change abilities to grab

edit note: this went way further than I thought and I ended up doing a classsummary/cross class exploity stuff thing. There should be some good information in here but it's late and I need sleep, so apologies for lack of clarity.


Chakra/MP Stroll for infinite mana, MP Stroll will restore you full at the end of a fight if you spent two on it, or post fight while allowing you to nab some nice White Mage spells if you were inclined. Or Chakra for a Standard Action 50% restore of HP and MP.

Blackmages Countermagic is a nice reverse nuke for caster classes, Elemental Seal for MARM breaking, Unecessary Force is a nice grab for casters. Favored Spell could be a good grab later on for an instant cast top tier spell.

Blue Mage has observe who's wording makes it seem like someone could perma have blue mage learning outside of the class. Sapphire Seal is very appealing to any caster, especially since Arcane weapons scale of mnd. Diffusion is very dangerous in the hands of a Dark Knight along with Escalate rapidly stacking attack steps on a single cast plays into Dark Knights powers incredibly well.

Dark Knight has the potentially useful Forceful Intentions for any Force based skill monkeys, Shadeblade is nice for any melee types as is Last Resort (which stacks nicely with Blue Mage) Nightsword is an amazing boon on almost anybody.

Dragoon's lancet is amazingly useful, especially in the hands of a mind stacking Red Mage who could fully restore a party with a good roll or decent build. Deepbreathing builds well on any force/finesse pwr/mnd based character who can Blind/Seal an entire enemy group in a single turn. Whirling Spear is nice on Paladins to stack that revenge damage along with any tank style character.

Engineer has libra and some nice Synth bonuses for anyone who happens to like that stuff.

Entertainer has mime which is an amazing boost on any caster type and most characters in general but better on those with MP. Anyone who has perform high (finesse skill monkeys) could easily pick up a lot of cool stuff and do well with it, like Power Chord. Fashionable is amazing on anyone, as is Hide (for non-tanks anyway)

Gambler, multiple people grabbing Covering Fire could be very scary, as would Stacked Deck. Long Shot could be nice on a ranger.

Geomancer is a lot like Blue Mage except that they contain their magic inside the class nicely, making it less a pit stop and more of a final destination. Grab all the magic you want and then consider sitting your butt on Geomancer. With poor accuracy most of their job abilities just seem alright, thankfully made up for by their magic. It's hard to justify levelling as Geomancer despite it being a good class.

Monk is incredibly tasty, nom nom nom. Chakra stands out as one of the strongest abilities in the game. An slow action self heal for 50% HP/MP once per battle is very useful, but only particularily on mage characters making it less standout for the class itself but moreso as a job change. Unbreakable form is hard to ignore, as it is very appealing for any character, each time it's purchased is an extra 150 HP by end game, early game this benefit is great for squishies and tanks alike. Haymaker could very possibly benefit off of a quick Gambler class change for Long Shot truth told. Shatter armor is a checkier Break with a lot more permanence and Aura Bolt is a good spell on any Mnd char, early game Holy Damage at *2 level is amazing, once per session is a stiff drawback but I could see it being a potent boss nuke. Formless Strike is great on any melee class, at will magic damage is great.

Ninja's image is too limited to be great but unless I misread spending a level as ninja instantly grants dual-wield for life? Beso-toxico is amazing on any class that might ever use a weapon. The Ninja is really lacking cool abilities, most are once per session which really limits them hard I think.

Ninjutsu is amazing, if you can find some way to get shadow damage off a weapon as another class and you have high mind (arcane weapon wielders, hello) you can do incredible amounts of damage per hit (hello red mages). Consider that a base weapon hit would do their mind*tier, then throw in a vast toolset of disabling, and your choice of elemental damage and another mnd*tier that procs off whatever they happen to attack with. Iffy on Ninja because of the mnd requirement, not so much on another class.

Paladin's, I don't think they're a class to switch in and out of, but only because their utility is so absolute. Consider a party with two paladins, each with Astra, Sentinel, Shield of Light and Orlandeu's strike. Each enemy has to attack one or the other from Orlandeu's or reset Orlandeu's, but sentinel can be used to force targets to swap to one or the other, and then when they do hit SHield of Light hurts them! Combine that with Whirling Spear from Dragoons and the sheer tank punish is incredible. That said, almost any of their abilities go nicely with any class. Astra is a good "OH ****" damage dodge. Spirits Within is easily the most powerful 'spell' a Mnd based caster would have, especially considering it's MP Absorb properties. Leadership is just incredibly useful as a supportive ability that one person carrying it brings a lot to the party.

Ranger's ambush could be nice, what if multiple people have it? Does it stack? Aim is nice for a lot of different things, particularily monk's who rely on accuracy to get good chains going. Disabling shot works nicely on any attack based character(monks). Sidewinder is incredibly good on anyone, but the fact it's ranged only limits it to Rangers pretty much. Barrage does not say it has to be a ranged attack, making an amusing melee combatant image in my head, the fact it's once per session limits it somewhat. Barrage on a monk for example is potentially horrifying.

Red Mage, ahhh red mage. First spell choice, up until 10 they dominate every casters amount of spells per level. With Sagacity they can choose from every spell list, have more of those spells and then at ten just swap to their preferred caster (Black Mage has more MP but who knows) and then learn ancients from any spell list because of Sagacity despite no longer being a red mage. Runic is meh, once per fight makes it almost pointless. Flourish only benefits red mages but any caster could find a use for it potentially. Charismagic is incredibly broken on any caster ever. It's even useful on dex based melee types due to expanding their weapon selection. Divert Spell ain't bad on anyone (bouncing heals is awesome). Sagacity is stellar on all casters such that even if you don't plan to stick red mage, it's worth popping in to grab it. Allure is nice on any finesse based char. Dazzling display is also universally nice, as is seal evil. Red Mage is the ultimate jump in to grab some job abilities and jump out class for almost anyone, as a caster you may as well stay until ten, there is almost no reason to pick any other class, each has their own nice utility but Red Mage manages to cover so many bases so well it's hard to see the point of Black Mage (element specialization spreading mad fire dots is nice, but Red Mage is nicer) until later levels when Ancients start poking their heads out.

Samurai is an easy pit stop for the Breaks since they have no checks or penalties and requires only a successful attack roll, or Pommel Strike which is a free action every turn to sleep a humanoid opponent for several minutes via an opposed Force check (you roll FIN or FOR) or possibly Flawless Form (for monks or even some casters, but doubtfully worth the change just for that) Outmanuver works on any dodge happy mind stacker (Ninja's specifically). Since Two-handded grip does not mention shields(nor flawless form) it's possible to grab those and swap to a shield bearing class to enjoy the benefits of improve blades and armor but it's largely a samurai only benefit (repairing without skill checks). Third Eye's situational but nice on physical types to not be shut down by a single status ailment. Pommel Strike, Breaks and possibly Flawless Form are their strongest benefits, without them Draw Out just isn't quite nice enough on it's own to warrant sticking around when there's so many nicer things elsewhere. Perhaps some place with a shield.

Thieves have flimflam, which is great, but you need to pack a good thievery stat so it's hard to justify to skillpoint expenditure. That said, keeping pace with finesse checks is easy with a skill so it's not too bad or hard to imagine someone deciding to grab some cool thief stuff and splitting elsewhere, Mug for example is very nice as it permits stealing outside of the class (albeit it rarely) and could work nicely in a crit focused build(dual-wielding lancet/threaten with mug?) Assassins kiss is amazing, especially on a Pommel Strike carrying char or anyone with disable (or a party)

Time Mage is...interesting. Their innate is crap, situational/nifty at best. Stasis Strike is okay on force chars, Manashield is amazing on any caster or Caster Hybird(dark knight/paladin especially). Momentum is...noteworthy but only good on Time Mages or Sagacity wielding caster, or even a fighter. Slow the fighter, and his slowed attacks now deal 3 steps more damage. Mind over Matter is brilliant for any Finesse character opening up a lot of doors to Force based characters powers. Blink is great if combined with haste on anyone. Future Self is a headache, but nice on anyone. That said, not much reason to stick in Time Magic as you can nab these abilities at some point and stay Red Mage with sagacity until later. Mind over Matter is nice on a Red Mage with charismagic, for sure.

Warrior has one big thing to look at, Paradigm Shift. Free life spell, infinite lastin provoke and double armor, possibly saboteur on a crit build, Ravager on literally anybody, Commando on a ranger, monk, whatever team, Synergist on a team attack build. Not a single class would not benefit from Paradigm shift. Unstoppable is a great tank power, though Mind over Matter makes it nice universally. First Strike would be nice on Ninja/Thieves/Ranger due to their stacking abilities. Provoke is -amazing- on tanks, especially those that can proc damaging defensive powers like that Paladin (he would let the warrior provoke then force his other powers back/to damage) Mad Rush is a nice quick buff especially because it -is- a slow action. Berserker is nice too, as is Cyclone. Of special note, a 'destiny' build could swap to fighter to get Meteorain and then slaughter enemy groups wholesale. But that's not too exploitable.

White Mage has shield bearer, nice on literally everyone due to property stacking. Clearmind is nice on casters who can't speed up casts (Black Mage/White Mage) Divine Seal is kneecapped because it's once per session despite being a pay less mana to cast two heal spells very slowly. Peaceful Messanger is okay on a skill monkey twink diplomat, but that could be the whitemage so it's not too bad on cross class. Mp Stroll is amazing for anyone and everyone that has an MP pool. Two abilities is steep but not so steep as to outweigh benefits. Hybirds might not like it too much but dedicated casters get a lot out of it. Sacrifice is super useless, the white mage learns spells to do this without all the drawbacks. Reckoning is interesting, a DPS White Mage, or possibly a sneaky red mage, could benefit greatly from this. If you consider the SPirits Within to be a spell this makes it potentially horrifying. Does...stronger together stack? Bahahaha. Overflow+Monk's hp buff abilitiy would be amazing in conjunction together.

That's all. For now. I have a lot of ideas to improve this stuff, and class changing in general which, besides Red Mages in general, is the most standout broken bit in the game followed by how MP is determined, but I'll address that later.

I hope some of the above made sense, it's kinda late.

[Falcon777]

Ah, it looks like you answered one of my questions, trisk. Yes, redmages do indeed seem to be able to dominate the spectrum, though to be fair your example of a 17 MND redmage at lvl 2 is breaking the rules since no class is supposed to have that much ability points spent in any stat at that level, regardless of how they are getting it. I think the max at that level is 11. However, that doesn't really mitigate your point that much. Personally, I think the problem rests within the fact that the same stat for ALL casters is not being used to calculate bonus mana and spell damage.

In the first itteration of this game, charismagic was in a fairly significant way a detriment to redmages, though thematically fitting since the first game had a 5th stat, SPIRIT which governed how well a person resisted status effects (thematically having a high SPIRIT stat would mean you would laugh in the face of danger along with having extremely strong willpower, hence the ability to resist status effects). Charismagic gave redmages the ability to sacrifice on how much they could effectively put points into skills (or at least certain important skill that were based off of INT) for the upside of gaining a strong resistence to status effects without having to sacrifice spell casting power. Essentially it made the redmage the "sorcerer" counterpart to his "wizard" buddies, the black and time mages.

The obvious main difference between the two games is that Dust is attempting to force players to not dump a lot of points into a single stat but instead have players form balanced characters. The concept of force and finesse was supposed to help keep players in line by possibly giving fairly serious detriments to the character that was not balanced. However, the simple fact of the matter is that nobody WANTS to make balanced characters; people want to have that one character who KICKED BUTT against that really irritating boss. This idea of balance also goes against the Final Fantasy grain of epic battles between good and evil. Should players have to work together to defeat a (end) boss? Of course, but it might not be as memorable as Bobby playing as a redmage casting fives spells in one turn, curbstomping that dragon back to the drawing board.

Concerning the redmage specifically, my thought (ever since I first saw the class back in the original version) was that a redmage ought to be strong, though not necessarily as strong as the other casters on any given spell. The way he would keep up would be by casting more quickly (thematically fitting with his epic ability double cast). Charismagic, however, in this version doesn't really do that. The closest stat thematically to SPIRIT in this version is RES, however a hp rich redmage almost seems even more broken than a mp rich redmage.

Sigh, unfortunately I don't have an answer to this conundrum. To remove Charismagic altogether doesn't make sense thematically since redmages are supposed to be able to use both white and black magic through sheer force of personality and endless practice (as opposed to truly understanding what they are doing when the cast a spell). Perhaps charismagic as the redmage's innate ability could hold some potential? I don't know. I'll stop my rambling now...

Falcon777

[Trisk]

[Just read what's above me]

The definition of stats is loose at best, could Force not be their own inner strength? Their power to act out against the world? That sounds to me like what it is for Black Mages and casters in general and see no reason why it wouldn't be the same for a Red Mage. That also said I think all mage classes should get more spells in their school, matching the Red Mages extra spells, there's no real reason for this adavntage and I don't see why Mages cannot simply learn more of their schools spells, especially at lower levels. This itself could possibly use a big rework, Red Mages could learn more but they should learn them later, I also don't see why they can't pick up an Ancient at higher levels too. That said, if Power is a good stat for them that makes 3 stats worthwhile, Power, Res, Mnd. Dex is too, but they could just ignore that in favor of a Power based Blade weapon which to mee is rather fitting of the Red Mage anyway. With shields and medium armor and a decent base Acc they are competent in melee combat, along with survivability, with decent mind they have a fair mana pool (but not as good as devoted caster, as it should be).


If the system is not based around trying to make as solid as possible character in your area (discounting the stat bonuses which I have 2 ways to address). For one, why would my Samurai have power? I can understand dumping points to up force, but otherwise it literally does nothing when I can make my damage based off my Res, Mnd has some tertiary uses via one of their skills but even that's hard to justify putting points into. It's intentionally asking players to handicap themselves when making a character when the game system should just be based around players attempting to do this.

As for stat bonuses, I'd recommend lowering the bonus to +1 to make it far less appealing at level 2, that or stating that it cannot raise a stat above the level cap, or making a 'soft' cap that is, say, 2 higher than a stat that nothing can raise it past. These would go a long way to address the fact that Attribute Bonus is undisputably the strongest weapon property at low levels. But I agree that as a game runner I would have definitely turned down stacking it on every piece of gear they had.

Edit: Vis a Vis the stats, there's a balance issue regarding them, especially for melee types because there are literally two stats that dominate, Res because it gives health and Dex because it gives evasion, any melee fighter that can manage to make their skills off these two are instantly much stronger than someone who has to use, say, Power or Mind. That is, unless they cast spells.

Another issue is that melee classes primary method of attacking is, well, attacking and in that every magic class with an arcane weapon can easily keep pace. Now I admit accuracy is a big deal but it's not entirely mitigating the fact that melee damage is rather...lackluster. I think the monk is great for this, but someone like the samurai feels lacking in the fact that their primary method of damage dealing is draw out which has severe penalties, especially before they start packing back up swords. The Ninja has dual-wield but even that's just decent. The Ranger is doing alright because of their sweet abilities, as is the Warrior and the Paladin/Dark Knight just have so much amazing job ability nothing can compare. The Dragoon itself is...eh. Jump is absolutely attrocious. How about a slow action, or perhaps an action that ends their turn and then on the next turn it's slow, and they cannot change their target but it increases their deals their normal attack damage plus dex*level, or ignores the targets armor. Then I'd recommend some more job abilities to make that a little bit better, although the one that is there is pretty great. Dragoon without lancet seems very useless, and that makes lancet kind of a non-choice for a decent dragoon. Thief has less evasion than the Samurai which I found weird, but I like their kit. Money seems very useful. Geomancer needs to have their abilities double checked, there's a lot of weird For/Fin/Mnd/Res checks when highest attribute is really neat. I'd love to make a solid melee Geomancer, that class seems really cool and well done but their job abilities are lacking in some ways.

Pure magic just seems to dominate the game right now, especially for some of the weaker melee classes which is why Paladin's and Dark Knights (who already dominate without magic) are rather scary. That may be intentional but I think there's still some work done to make the classes stand out or have fun mechanics, monk is a super cool class. The combo mechanic is neat and interesting and their damage calculation is pretty neat too. I consider them the bar to measure other classes.

[Falcon777]

In general this game has a very heavy focus on themes and roleplaying in comparison to other tabletop games (pathfinder, dnd, etc). As such you don't really want the author (DUST FTW!! lol :P) to modify the game such that a class like the redmage is using maces and clubs when thematically the melee weapon of choice for a redmage is a rapier (aka a weapon that requires the user to be very flexible, or in other words, DEXtrous).

That being said, I generally agree with what you said about handicapping: people don't want to spread their stats around, they want characters to be strong in combat; in a system that rewards a player's character for leveling up by given them attribute points at every level, the natural (and in my opinion, correct) inclination is to use that point towards whatever stat is going to increase the amount of damage that you do. There is simply too much about the game that is based around combat for players not to do this, especially since the characters now get even less attribute points than they did in the original version.

Essentially what we are saying, Dust, is that if the characters cannot survive combat (aka, go bonkers with damage), then it doesn't matter how important those finesse and force checks are, assuming the majority of them are outside of combat. That being said, I have yet to actually playtest the game, so I'm really just talking from my gut reaction here (well, along with educated guessing based on previous rpg experiences).

Falcon777

[Trisk]

In general this game has a very heavy focus on themes and roleplaying in comparison to other tabletop games (pathfinder, dnd, etc). As such you don't really want the author (DUST FTW!! lol :P) to modify the game such that a class like the redmage is using maces and clubs when thematically the melee weapon of choice for a redmage is a rapier (aka a weapon that requires the user to be very flexible, or in other words, DEXtrous).

That being said, I generally agree with what you said about handicapping: people don't want to spread their stats around, they want characters to be strong in combat; in a system that rewards a player's character for leveling up by given them attribute points at every level, the natural (and in my opinion, correct) inclination is to use that point towards whatever stat is going to increase the amount of damage that you do. There is simply too much about the game that is based around combat for players not to do this, especially since the characters now get even less attribute points than they did in the original version.

Essentially what we are saying, Dust, is that if the characters cannot survive combat (aka, go bonkers with damage), then it doesn't matter how important those finesse and force checks are, assuming the majority of them are outside of combat. That being said, I have yet to actually playtest the game, so I'm really just talking from my gut reaction here (well, along with educated guessing based on previous rpg experiences).

Falcon777

A rapier would be likely considered a 'blade' under current rules, that said I'd like to see a 'light' weapon class, or perhaps reclassing the concealed weapons to that subtype ro dexy fighters have a melee weapon outside of concealed. But also that redmages have charismagic which lets them use dex, which is cool if unecessary with Mnd stacking and the other broken side of charismagic. I think making an innate Charismagic (instead of Lore (everything) which makes much more sense as a job ability) would go a long way, if it was toned down to some degree.

I don't think think a focus in combat is necessary, no matter what your character will have a force check, or a finesse check, or a mix of the two and be ready for those RP situation, regardless.


Edit: Charismagic, allowing you to cast Mnd based spells off Pwr? Seems like it goes a long way to cover Red Mages, but prevents Mnd from being the be all end all stat (Finesse/MP is still vital even if it's not damage) versus making Power worthless.

Edit2: How does entertainer not have dance! Entertainer seems like a really strong kind of boring class. But mime...soo good....

[Vicedets]

And, hey. If you find yourself hunting monsters soon, be a sweetheart and pop back in every so often, let me know how things are going? Highly relevant to my interests since I'm testing out the new bestiary math currently.

Did someone tell you I'm running a monster hunter campaign...? And yes, I'll keep you updated.

Don't know if you remember, but I made a comment a while back about how my boss didn't have enough health based on the math, so I ended up doubling its health the next time around, and it turns out I didn't need to. The party was just about dead by the time they reached what the math said should have worked.

The biggest issue was that one of my players had Shiva as a summon, and Shiva hurts, especially when combined with Haste. Another thing was that my player was essentially summoning her for free. He saved her for a boss fight, spent the two destiny, and because he was a warrior, earned two destiny back at the end of the fight.

Don't know if that's interesting for you or not.

[steelsmiter]

I was running my Old FFd6 campaign and we somehow got into the Improbable weapon discussion and I ended up writing a chart to explain how even if your damage is linear, strength is not... Probably would have been better in homebrew but I thought it would do alright here



though upon further inspection, I typo'd on STR 2... should be 133

[Valnnar]

A rapier would be likely considered a 'blade' under current rules, that said I'd like to see a 'light' weapon class, or perhaps reclassing the concealed weapons to that subtype ro dexy fighters have a melee weapon outside of concealed.

Food For Thought for Gamers

Cosmetics: -Serving to modify or improve the appearance of a physical feature, defect, or irregularity. If you see something in a game that has features which are appropriate for your build and are within the rules, however it has visual concepts which are contrary to your character design, you simply change the visual concept. Now, I understand that Red Mages can't equip Concealed weapons currently. If they could however, one could simply change the nature of the weapon's visual properties, and why it is afforded a bonus damage step once per combat. Perhaps it is a Quick Brandish maneuver which adds extra vital point accuracy, thus dealing a bit more damage as you unsheathe your weapon and enter a combat stance. To help everyone understand the scope to which I believe this is possible I will add a few examples.

Example 1 -Choco Ball into Life Leach-: Choco Ball is originally this awkward little spell effect that happens to result in an enemy taking MND x Half Level +2d6 Non Elemental damage, and you and an ally of your choice gains HP equal to the amount of damage dealt. Mechanically this plays out exactly like the stereotypically dark and malicious spell Drain, except that it scales and also heals an ally. The Blue Mage could pick this spell up off an early boss-fight with a evil dark caster, rather than a wondering chocobo (Which none of my players would EVER harm.).

Example 2 -1,000 Needles into Senbonzakura- For those of you who don't watch Bleach, there is a really cool character who has an amazing power. Like all the main characters in the story of Bleach, this character draws on a special power from his sword. He can turn his sword into a massive number of flower petals, which are all in fact tiny swords. At which point he can control them, and chop you to bits. Also his Bankai (super form) could simply be represented by choosing to spend a Destiny Point and insure that you roll a 12, which would increase the damage to 1,000.

Example 3 -Comet into Chrono Combo- If you are anything like me then you like the idea of fighters who can manipulate time in combat. The idea of a Monk/Time Mage seems awesome within the rules already, but if you tweet some cosmetics it gets even cooler. Comet could represent your Monk/Time Mage stopping time and pummeling your targets all across the battle field with a flurry of light speed punches. Clearly this would have to be a high powered cosmetic setting as well, so that the damage is expressed well.

Example 4 -Jump into Heavy Nanocraft Cannon- If you are the Cyborgy type, this one might be for you. Rather than Leaping into the air, why not simply put up a force-shield that results in the same effects. Your Cyborg's legs shoot stabilizing bolts out of the side of his legs and into the ground, as a yellow field started to generate in the form of a dome around his body. His center of the Cyborg's chest opens up and nano-bots come flooding out to rapidly assemble the new assault weapon for their master. Within a round, a fully formed, two-handed cannon is within the grasp of the Cyborg. And just as the barrier field comes down, the shot goes off. A blistering wave of heat and deep cascading roar flood the area, as the munition leaves the barrel. The target is hit, dead on.

Disclaimer on that last one: My group has deemed the original rules on Jump to still need a little work. So we powered up Jump a little bit. Can't be targeted by anything within reason (though leaping into the air above and into a thunderstorm may provoke some checks or bonuses depending on whether or not you have Ride the Storm), and it can crit. That plus Highwind's damage increase will suffice for now, though it's a shame that I HAVE to take a limit ability slot to make my Jump worthwhile to me.

[steelsmiter]

Food For Thought for Gamers

Cosmetics: -[I]

Been looking for something like this to run a Persona based game where there's no Wildcard.(They're all dead).

[awahl]

That being said, I generally agree with what you said about handicapping: people don't want to spread their stats around, they want characters to be strong in combat; in a system that rewards a player's character for leveling up by given them attribute points at every level, the natural (and in my opinion, correct) inclination is to use that point towards whatever stat is going to increase the amount of damage that you do. There is simply too much about the game that is based around combat for players not to do this, especially since the characters now get even less attribute points than they did in the original version.


Falcon777

I couldn't agree more.

After playtesting for a little bit I have found those who spread stats just seem to be much weaker in combat than those who are able to dump everything into one or two stats.

If you went with a combo that allows you to stack Dex and Mind you will also get some pretty significant skillchecks... this makes force so much less attractive to me :(

EDIT:
Time Mage/Red Mage is one combo in partiular that is fun. Charismagic, Mind over Matter and Mana Shield allow you to pump Dex and Mind, a little into Res and go go go.

[Trisk]

The cosmetic thing is something I am completely A-OK with so long as the group is fine, it's entirely flavor and dependant on the DM and players to make work.


That said, if we could have a look at Skillfull, hypothetically a Dancer with 5 Finesse at level 2 could, HYPOTHETICALLY, pick up Skillful 3 time, raising the max cap from 6 to 12 and have 12 in Perform and their innate would grant the party +6, as well as a +6 to any sort of Mimed skill check, or entertainer skill check in general giving them a near unbeatable Power Chord check, which does 19xlevel damage on average (scaling VERY fast as they level) disarms them, knocks them back, interrupts casts -and- makes them drop everything INCLUDING their drops from their drop list, making it superior to steal too.

...Eesh. Admittedly it is a once per session (once per combat seems better IMO inspite of this)

Also Mime checks off perform would be near unbreakable, with their high mind they have enough MP to copy some nice spells, and as a standard action, not to mention if you have someone do an opposed check debuff you can follow up with a +12 or so check to make it happen if they fail.

That said it's not fool proof, but being able to have super good skill caps on say an engineer is very effective. I'd like to argue to make Skillfuls cap only increase once, and perhaps grant more skill points. One of the big issues with skills is that everyone gets just two a level, which makes skill based chars lag behind when in reality perhaps skills per level should be determined by class? Otherwise you can't keep up with your skills and any other than 2 fall behind which feels weird on skill based chars but maybe difficulties are set up with this in mind?

Idea: Make SKillful hero grant a per level bonus to skillpoints instead of flat 5?

[squiggit]

That being said, I generally agree with what you said about handicapping: people don't want to spread their stats around, they want characters to be strong in combat; in a system that rewards a player's character for leveling up by given them attribute points at every level, the natural (and in my opinion, correct) inclination is to use that point towards whatever stat is going to increase the amount of damage that you do. There is simply too much about the game that is based around combat for players not to do this, especially since the characters now get even less attribute points than they did in the original version

This has basically been my experience too, players have been doing everything they can to decrease the number of stats they invest in. Both of our mages took a level in Red for Charismagic*, the warrior would only use blades... and the samurai would stick to buying and synthing weapons that were gemini'd with concealed or ranged as their second property.

What it comes down to here is that PWR is too limited as a stat. All it does is pump your damage (and your force)... if you're using the right weapon. But if you're using a Blade, Concealed, Ranged or Arcane weapon... or have Dragon Fang or Charismagic, PWR essentially becomes a useless stat. Having a good force stat is nice, sure... but you can pad that out by dumping into RES for survivability. At least in my last game it got to the point where even out Samurai wanted to take a level in Time for Mind over Matter.


The potential fixes here that first come to my mind would be to give PWR a secondary benefit like the other stats have, make PWR benefit your damage even if your primary damage stat has been shifted to something else, or I suppose get rid of RES, DEX and MND based damage scaling altogether.




*Actually the party's 'black mage' just started their character out as a red mage since Red gets more spells than black does. Which is another issue entirely... if you can find a way to make up for the loss in MP there's basically no downside to playing Red over Black... Red gets more spells in the Novice, Intermediate and Expert categories... and Black's abilities are by and large utilitarian (nothing on the level of spellblade, flourish, charimagic, at least IMO)... Black's only real advantage as a class is its access to Ancient spells, but Red doesn't actually get anything at levels 13 or 15 anyways, which makes it easy for the mage to stockpile destiny for those two levels.

Granted, you can say the same for White and Time vs Red, but at least they have access to some particularly intriguing abilities that more directly enhance their play