Arena Tournament, Round 96: Anisimovna & Lyir Torsis vs. Aguacatl & Die Tierhüter

[Sallera]

Anisimovna:

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I said nothing about not being able to Hide; you simply don't get to reroll your first check. You don't roll two Hide checks when you take a double move action, and moving through a swift action instead of a move action doesn't change that.

[candycorn]

@Sallera:

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Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.

This shows that it is part of the same action taken to move. I don't see a once per round restriction on the check. Any movement seems to qualify.

Since the hide check is a part of the action taken to move, it stands to reason that a different action taken to move would permit a different check.

In addition:

Action

Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action.

When I break LOS, and re-establish it, it is trying to spot something in a reactive matter. It's not the "something" that is the key, it's the "time". When I moved into E8, he had an opportunity to see me. That's one time.

When I moved into E20, he was no longer able to see me. Moving into E19 gives him the possibility to see me. That's a new chance to spot me, which should require a new spot check.

A spot chance is rolled for each opportunity to find something, not each something to be found. Thus, breaking LOS and re-establishing should represent a new chance to spot, and require a new roll.

[Sallera]

Anisimovna:

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Regardless, the Arena precedent is one check per round, a measure I suspect was likely implemented to prevent the very abuse you describe, although it's been around longer than I can remember, so I can't say for certain. One doesn't get four free attempts to spot someone by ducking around a corner and back repeatedly (this ruling I do remember reading, but it was in a very old match - on Dawn Arena, if you want to look - and a cursory search isn't finding it for me), and the same applies to hiding.

[candycorn]

@Sallera:

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It's one thing when the spotter tries to abuse it to get multiple spot checks. It's another when the spotter is trying to spot someone while they move from one cover to another, with changing ranges and spot modifiers.

In other words, gaming the system to look for the same thing a dozen times is different than darting between multiple forms of cover across varying distances in an effort to lose a pursuer. In the first, it's essentially the same spot check, vs the same cover, against a target in the same square. In the second, the cover changes, the location and circumstances of the thing being spotted change, even the modifiers which apply change.

In other words, everything about the spot is different. Different cover, different location, different distance. The example you described could well be an interpretation of the "each time you have a chance to spot" as "it's the same spot. You're looking from the same location andspotting the same thing through the same cover". The latter is not. It's a legitimate attempt to use multiple sources of cover across the arena to lose a target.

That's not an abuse.

[Wildgeist]

@Refs

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So my Round 8 Readied Action was never triggered??? Or what has just happened???

[Scorer]

So now we're waiting on what?

[candycorn]

No ref put a hold on the match.

[Wildgeist]

I'm just waiting for an answer from a Ref/Sallera before posting my turn rewind.

[Sallera]

Anisimovna:

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Where can you draw the line between the two that doesn't create ambiguity? Should you have to roll seven Hide checks if you move across Clouds, just in case someone's watching? Every time you enter and exit a cloud bank, after all, it will be a new source of concealment with a different distance. The current precedent keeps things clear and doesn't create unnecessary work and potential for confusion. If you can find sufficiently authoritative and/or recent precedent otherwise, I'll certainly reconsider the matter, but aside from that, you'll have to bring the question to Kyeudo if you wish to contest the ruling further.

Tierhüter:

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Correct, your action did not trigger. There was an error in the LoS given the first time around.

[Kyeudo]

@Sallera

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As I am an involved party here, I can't act as a ref here while the match still runs.

Nothing that holds up the match.

[candycorn]

@Sallera:

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No. Actually, under my suggestions, you'd roll 1 hide check for each action that involved movement. The reactive spot is the only one that would involve one check for each chance to see, and that would typically be rolled by the ref. Thus, you wouldn't roll 7 rolls 'just in case'. The ref would roll one spot check for each instance where a character left LOS and re-entered elsewhere (which would be less common on clouds than it would be somewhere like here).

This also has the advantage of giving people more chances to spot a hiding character, which actually hinders hiding characters.

Doesn't hold up the match.

[Wildgeist]

Ok then. I'm kindda in a hurry right now but I'll post my rewind no later than tomorrow. Sorry for the delay guys....

[Wildgeist]

Der Tierhüter Round 9 Rewind

@Refs/LoS

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Tierhüter

Move: Move to L12
If gain LoS Cast entangle from scroll, if not keep readied action.

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To cast entangle from scroll if gain LoS with Anisimovna.

AnC @N14
Stays there



WiC @M14
Stays there

End of Turn

STATS

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Der Tierhuter Started @O12
Der Tierhuter Ended @L12

AnC Started @N14
AnC Ended @N14

WiC Started @M14
WiC Ended @M14



HP 9/9
AC 23 (10 +2 Armor +2 Shield +3 Dexterity +1 Size +3 LD +2 Small Pillar) T 14??? (not sure if LD stacks in touch...) FF 18


Travel Devotion: 7/10
Law Devotion: 9/10


Bullets Left: 20 Carried of a total of 20 Owned

Bullets Used: 0


Good Hand Wielding: Scroll
Off Hand Wielding: Shield


Backpack:
Alchemist Fire X2


Spells Prepared:
Level 0
Flare
Guidance
Virtue

Level 1
Summon Natures Ally I
Cure Light Wounds

[Scorer]

Aguacatl 10th Turn Redux

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AGUACATL
Free: Speak "Time to use the dogs... unleash next turn"
Move: Kneel position and hide

(1d20+8)[16]
Standard: Ready an action defensively

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To throw Flame if LoS with Anisimovna.

TUNATL
Standard: Full Defense

End of Turn

STATS

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Aguacatl started @ L15
Aguacatl ended @ L15
HP 5/5
AC 25 +2 vs ranged (10 +6 dex, +1 size, +2 armor, +2 shield, +2 Pole, +2 Dodge) Touch 21 FF 17

99 Sling bullets left
(0 carried)

Hand 1 Wielding: Scroll (1x Entangle, 3x Produce Flame [1x entangle, 2x Produce Flame used])
Hand 2 Wielding: Shield
Mouth: Nothing

Spells Prepared:

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L0 - Cure Minor wounds x3
L1 - Cure Light Wounds, Cure Light Wounds

Scroll of heat metal used up.

Tunatl started @L14
Tunatl ended @L14
HP 13/13
AC 20 (10 +2 dex, +4 natural armor, +4 dodge) Touch 16 FF 14

No summons yet

[Sallera]

Anisimovna:

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Tierhüter moves to L12 and readies an action. Aguacatl kneels and then readies an action, triggering your readied action. Do you take it?

[candycorn]

@Refs:

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No, I decline to take it. I have another idea.

[candycorn]

Anisimovna, Round 10, redux:

Refs/LOS:

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Move: to E21, then back to E19. (20 feet total, less than half my speed)

Hide: (1d20+16)[35]
Move Silent: (1d20+11)[28]

Free: Law devotion to attack.
Follow with spine attack (3 spines) vs Aguacatl.

Attack 1: (1d20+13)[28] (subtract 2 if aguacatl sees me)
Damage: (1d6+1)[6]

Attack 2: (1d20+13)[31] (subtract 2 if aguacatl sees me)
Damage: (1d6+1)[5]

Attack 3: (1d20+13)[18] (subtract 2 if aguacatl sees me)
Damage: (1d6+1)[7]

Remainder of turn pending results, and likely ready action triggers.

[candycorn]

3 attacks vs Aguacatl, hitting:

FF AC 28 for 6 damage.
FF AC 31 for 5 damage.
FF AC 18 for 7 damage.

After that, I become visible in E19. Not done, but remainder of turn pending ready action triggers.

[Scorer]

Maybe not just yet...

I suggest you ask LoS first...

[candycorn]

Sallera has informed me already that you are currently in the same square as before, kneeling, with a ready action, when she asked me if I was going to take my ready action (I declined to take it).

On a side note: I did ask LOS.

[Sallera]

Aguacatl's readied action triggers before Anisimovna's turn, however. Take it if you wish to.

[Scorer]

(1d20+3)[6]
(1d6+1)[5]

Aguacatl's at -6hp

[candycorn]

At that, Tierhuter sees me in E19.

EDIT: And I believe it's a full kill. I moved out of LOS as part of my action, and hid moving in. Unless your spot check - distance penalty beats a 35 hide, you couldn't have seen me.

Scratch that, I neglected to see the cover bonus. Regardless, being rendered unconscious should still be an elimination.

EDIT 2: Waiting on whether or not a readied action is triggered/taken from Tierhuter (willing to bet yes to both).

[Scorer]

Negative... Tie can still cure me, I don't understand why are you so eager of eliminating me

[candycorn]

Negative... Tie can still cure me, I don't understand why are you so eager of eliminating me

Conditions of Loss

• Going more than 130 feet above +0 feet in the arena, unless otherwise specified.
• Moving or being moved out of the arena bounds by any means. (The parts of the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow that are coexistant with the arena are included in the arena, so moving to these areas does not disqualify you.)
• Being rendered unable to continue fighting, usually by being killed or rendered unconcious by being reduced to negative hit points. This also can include such conditions as being rendered dominated (but not Charmed), permanently incapable of acting, or other effects.
• Surrendering.
• Not posting within the given time limits.

Being rendered unable to continue fighting via unconsciousness from negative HP is a listed condition of loss. I am interested in eliminating you from the match, because I need to eliminate both of you to win.* Just as I am sure you're interested in eliminating me. However, I am requesting that in accordance with listed arena rules.

Your character is currently completely unable to act. That qualifies under the bolded loss condition.

*- Also, because odds are currently 2 to 1 against me (5 to 1 if you count animal companions). I NEED to eliminate foes quickly in order to stand a chance.... And as for why you and not tier? You have less HP. A volley is more likely to drop you than he.

[Kyeudo]

Let me pipe in and say that when I wrote that condition, I was thinking only of 1v1 matches. As he has a team mate, being unconcious doesn't automatically remove him from the match. He could theoretically continue fighting. While I can't make an official call, I can say that the intent behind that clause was just meant to allow skipping of the formallity of killing a finished opponent so that the match could be called faster.

[candycorn]

Let me pipe in and say that when I wrote that condition, I was thinking only of 1v1 matches. As he has a team mate, being unconcious doesn't automatically remove him from the match. He could theoretically continue fighting. While I can't make an official call, I can say that the intent behind that clause was just meant to allow skipping of the formallity of killing a finished opponent so that the match could be called faster.

Fair enough. In that case, I will soldier on as best I can.

[hustlertwo]

Let me pipe in and say that when I wrote that condition, I was thinking only of 1v1 matches. As he has a team mate, being unconcious doesn't automatically remove him from the match. He could theoretically continue fighting. While I can't make an official call, I can say that the intent behind that clause was just meant to allow skipping of the formallity of killing a finished opponent so that the match could be called faster.

I know precedent is in favor of characters in 2v2 matches only being eliminated by actual death, or by both combatants being unconscious.

[Wildgeist]

I think I'll pass having my readied action. And I think it's my turn then.

[Wildgeist]

Der Tierhüter Round 10

@Refs/LoS

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AnC @N14
Move: Move to F14
Standard: Total Defense.



WiC @M14
Move: Move to E15
Standard: Total Defense.


Tierhüter

Move: Move to M14
Standard: Cast a spell.

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Cast Cure Light Wounds upon Aguacatl.
(1d8+2)[8] hp cured

End of Turn

STATS

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Der Tierhuter Started @L12
Der Tierhuter Ended @M14

AnC Started @N14
AnC Ended @F14

WiC Started @M14
WiC Ended @E15



HP 9/9
AC 23 (10 +2 Armor +2 Shield +3 Dexterity +1 Size +3 LD +2 Small Pillar) T 14??? (not sure if LD stacks in touch...) FF 18


Travel Devotion: 8/10
Law Devotion: 10/10


Bullets Left: 20 Carried of a total of 20 Owned

Bullets Used: 0


Good Hand Wielding: Scroll
Off Hand Wielding: Shield


Backpack:
Alchemist Fire X2


Spells Prepared:
Level 0
Flare
Guidance
Virtue

Level 1
Summon Natures Ally I
Cure Light Wounds