Tarquin is Chaotic good!

[krossbow]

In a reprise of the "belkar is lawful good" threads, here's "tarquin is chaotic good".

rationalizations to this ridiculous proposal: go!




"Tarquin's actions are bringing divine punishment down upon an evil society; every one of those slaves was probably a murderous sociopath who was imprisoned for their actions, and most inhabitants of the southern continent are likewise evil.

Tarquin is merely Kira, bringing his judgment upon an evil and corrupt world!

As for being chaotic.... i don't know, he didn't file paperwork for that fire?"

[Morquard]

After the 20 or so other posts in the last week with pretty much the same content, this isn't really funny anymore, sorry.

[rokar4life]

Your point is moot, Kira was lawful evil

[Maximum Zersk]

Your point is moot, Kira was lawful evil

Insane evil, more like.

[Psyren]

Now I have an urge for a Tarquin "Just as planned" motivational. I'll wait until he gets a Nale-esque evil grin though.

Interesting prediction:

Spoiler

Show

Wouldn't it be a hoot if Elan and Nale had to team up to take Tarquin down?

[The Pale King]

I wasn't aware that even Belkar's most rabid defenders ever tried to claim he was actually good, let alone Lawful Good. I thought the most generous theory, before it eventually became a joke, was that he was actually Chaotic Neutral.

[Dr.Epic]

Tarquin is chaotic good in the same way Adrian Veidt is chaotic good.

[Maximum Zersk]

Now I have an urge for a Tarquin "Just as planned" motivational. I'll wait until he gets a Nale-esque evil grin though.

Oh he did that already.

[apenpaap]

Now I have an urge for a Tarquin "Just as planned" motivational. I'll wait until he gets a Nale-esque evil grin though.

Panel 7 of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html

[Lord_Gareth]

Tarquin is chaotic good in the same way Adrian Veidt is chaotic good.

Stop. About face. March AWAY from combining Watchmen with D&D morality. Now don't you bring that stuff into this forum again, you hear? We've got a decent neighborhood going on and we don't need that crap 'round here!

The tone of this post is mostly in jest but, seriously. No Watchmen + Alignment. It ends only in flames and sorrow.

[Tass]

Six-gunned in 10... 9... 8...

[Lvl45DM!]

Tarquin is chaotic good in the same way Adrian Veidt is chaotic good.

I.E. Not? The business man who worships kings of the past and nukes/squids the world to bring order would be LE.

EDIT Oh and Psyren, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html panel 10
Enjoy

[Lord Bingo]

Here's an idea for the next threat:

Is Elan really Evil? -and a genius mastermind who is stringing everyone along to achieve world dominance?

Anyone up for rationalizing this ridiculous proposal?

[Lvl45DM!]

Well notice that Elan is the only one Belkar actually likes. V saved his life, he's scared of Roy, he loathes Durkon, he thinks Haley is hot. But he actually likes elan enough to go rescue him. So obviously Elan has got something going on with Belkar that noone else knows about. Oh and is it a coincidence that Elan, a BARD couldnt tell that Xykon was conning him into touching the gate? or that he had to be physically prevented from doing so? or that he blew up the castle in order to weaken the universe!
Nale is officially the good twin

[Alagaesian]

Well notice that Elan is the only one Belkar actually likes. V saved his life, he's scared of Roy, he loathes Durkon, he thinks Haley is hot. But he actually likes elan enough to go rescue him. So obviously Elan has got something going on with Belkar that noone else knows about. Oh and is it a coincidence that Elan, a BARD couldnt tell that Xykon was conning him into touching the gate? or that he had to be physically prevented from doing so? or that he blew up the castle in order to weaken the universe!
Nale is officially the good twin

Ah, but if Elan was going to avoid being blown up by the wards on the gate, then he would need to be pure of heart. Being evil doesn't allow him to have that. So, obviously, Elan is not only evil, but also suicidal.

[Nilan8888]

Tarquin is chaotic good in the same way Adrian Veidt is chaotic good.

There is actually an argument that could be made that Adrian Veidt is Lawful Neutral, or even Lawful Good.

Tarquin is just plain Lawful Evil.

[Lvl45DM!]

Ah, but if Elan was going to avoid being blown up by the wards on the gate, then he would need to be pure of heart. Being evil doesn't allow him to have that. So, obviously, Elan is not only evil, but also suicidal.

Obviously Elan is an Epic Level Bard. Thats how he managed to survive so long despite being so useless. He cast an epic level spell that changed how his alignment appear secretly. The only time Elan has been seriously harmed is by Nale, or Nale's associate Thog, who have struck from behind, or by the blue dragon, which Elan was obviously faking to get in to see his father.

[apenpaap]

Elan also annoyed V to the point where she left the fleet, which eventually led to her deal with the IFCC.

[Lvl45DM!]

GENIUS!
Also he did seem rather annoyed at Kubotas death... he obviously had plans for him!

[hamishspence]

There is actually an argument that could be made that Adrian Veidt is Lawful Neutral, or even Lawful Good.

Tarquin is just plain Lawful Evil.

Most of the arguments for Veidt being LN or LG tend to work as follows:

Alignment is "general moral and personal attitudes" and is not based on deeds. No matter how much evil you do, unless you gain a "general moral and personal attitude" consistant with Evil Alignment

(specifically "willing to debase or destroy innocent life for fun or profit")

you cannot be Evil.

Indeed, if you still:

"have concern for life"
"have respect for the dignity of sentient beings"
"protect the innocent" and
"are willing to make personal sacrifices to help strangers"

you are Good.

Fans of the D&D splatbooks, however, may place more weight on the acts themselves, than the intentions- Veidt has repeatedly committed serious evil acts (mass murder, killing innocent people with cancer) and is willing to go on doing so toward his goal.

So- he is evil no matter how Good his intentions, or his personality traits.

[Lvl45DM!]

Doesn't matter his intentions or his actions. Veidt is not chaotic good. He might be good, neutral, evil, any combination of those three. But he AINT chaotic, the man is a paragon of self control

[hamishspence]

Not sure if anyone's suggested Veidt's CG in this thread.
This post:

Tarquin is chaotic good in the same way Adrian Veidt is chaotic good.

implies that he isn't, not that he is.

Closest thing to an argument for CG could be

"his methods are Chaotic- a great lie to deceive the world being the most notable".

But, even if "lying is Chaotic" was the case (and there's some evidence to suggest it's not all that chaotic- one archdevil, Baalzebul, is called Lord of the Lies) some minor Chaotic acts don't automatically move one out of Lawful alignment.

Roy proves this pretty well- he regularly uses Chaotic means toward Lawful ends, but in the end, he was judged as being right for LG rather than NG afterlife.

Getting back to morality in the OOTS-verse, rather than the Watchmen-verse- any notable cases where a character's alignment is still blurry?

In a thread on the D20 & other roleplaying games forum, someone argued for Therkla that, regardless of her being called out as "a spokesperson for Neutrality" in Don't Split The Party- she fits NE better than Neutral.

Though the main rationale, seemed to be her reaction to Detect Evil (hide) here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0560.html

[LtPowers]

But he AINT chaotic, the man is a paragon of self control

I know not the Watchmen, but self-control has absolutely zero to do with the law-chaos axis of alignment. It's all about how one views the ideal society: a society of order or a society of freedom.


Powers &8^]

[Skaven]

Maybe before he put on that helmet.

[hamishspence]

It's all about how one views the ideal society: a society of order or a society of freedom.

One's "natural personality traits" may play a part though- you might have a Chaotic character who has nearly all the traditional Chaotic traits, yet their default reaction to authority, is to obey it rather than rebel- and they might actually approve of Order.

PHB: "neutral characters feel neither a compulsion to obey nor rebel"

may be a guideline,

but it's not the only factor.

[Lvl45DM!]

Therkla seems NE to me. She didnt care about good guys and bad guys, she just wanted the hot guy and her daddy figure. Shes selfish and immature on top of being a ninja assassin, willing to turn on her allies and kill them just for holding her crush hostage, when she had done equally repugnant things. She was willing to let Lien get carved up. NE to the bone

[hamishspence]

Therkla seems NE to me. She didnt care about good guys and bad guys, she just wanted the hot guy and her daddy figure. Shes selfish and immature on top of being a ninja assassin, willing to turn on her allies and kill them just for holding her crush hostage, when she had done equally repugnant things. She was willing to let Lien get carved up. NE to the bone

The quote from Don't Split The Party was:

In many ways, I see Therkla as a sort of spokesperson for Neutrality. Not only the sort of Neutrality that looks out for their own interests, but the sort that sees a need for balance.

Therkla isn't actively involved in keeping that balance, but it is her instinct to seek it. When the feces hits the fan, her solution is for the Evil people to go over here and the Good people to go over there, and everyone just chill.

She can't understand each side's need to defeat the other. In her world, everyone would just respect each other's alignment preferences, and that would be that.

Of course, it's no surprise that it doesn't work out. Her death is a direct result of her unwillingness to subscribe to the with-us-or-against-us mentality of Kubota and, to a lesser extent, Elan.

So- there might be a bit of grey area there.

[Lvl45DM!]

She can be a spokesperson for Neutrality while still being basically NE. Shes not devoted to the cause of evil but she does more than enough to nudge her that way, even if it was basically Kubotas fault. Similarly, sorry to bring back Watchmen but it fits, while Veidt himself may not be Lawful Evil, the vast majority of people who started running around doing similar things would be, and so he can be seen as a spokesperson for LE, even without neccessarily being of that alingment 100% himself. The Joker in the Dark Knight espouses a CN philosophy, but acts CE

And of course there is grey area
Its OOTS might as well be called "What Alignment System?"

[hamishspence]

She can be a spokesperson for Neutrality while still being basically NE. Shes not devoted to the cause of evil but she does more than enough to nudge her that way, even if it was basically Kubotas fault.

Possible. TV Tropes does give her a Neutral alignment based on that quote- but they may have been too quick to leap to that conclusion.

[Lvl45DM!]

I refuse to check the page because I want to go to sleep at some point tonight. But it seems Word of Giant puts her as Neutral so we can go with she was NE until she decided to semi betray Kubota by asking Elan out when she moved into TN territory?