A question about Lovecraft

[Ghill]

This is sort of unrelated to anything, but I am working on a speech about H. P. Lovecraft and his works. While doing some research I found that "At the Mountains of Madness" referred tot he strange alien race as the "Old Ones", while every single external source I found referred to them as "Elder Things".

Anyone know why that is?

[Maxios]

This is sort of unrelated to anything, but I am working on a speech about H. P. Lovecraft and his works. While doing some research I found that "At the Mountains of Madness" referred tot he strange alien race as the "Old Ones", while every single external source I found referred to them as "Elder Things".

Anyone know why that is?

I'm pretty sure they mean the same thing. Elder Things are probably a nickname, or vice versa

[Frozen_Feet]

One thing you should know is that Lovecraft threw some names around for the heck of it - many of them aren't applied consistenly through his own works. Many terms were only set in stone in works of other people.

As for "old ones" and "elder things", I'm fairly sure Lovecraft's own stories give the name to at least two vastly different sorts of beings.

[Mewtarthio]

This is sort of unrelated to anything, but I am working on a speech about H. P. Lovecraft and his works. While doing some research I found that "At the Mountains of Madness" referred tot he strange alien race as the "Old Ones", while every single external source I found referred to them as "Elder Things".

Those are just descriptions used by the researchers. The creatures are never given canonical names, though both "Old Ones" and "Elder Things" are used. Generally, the "official" name of a creature is the name used by its worshipers (unless the creature itself can communicate with humans); nobody ever worships the Elder Things (that I know of), so we're stuck with those vague nicknames.

(Note that, while "Old Ones" and "Elder Things" are both used in the short story, the former term gets a bit overloaded when applied to the rest of the mythos, so "Elder Things" is less ambiguous).

[PPA]

People kinda started favoring "Elder Things" over "Old Ones" because the latter was a bit confusing, seeing as how Cthulhu and company are often referred to as "Great Old Ones" and are completely different beings from those in "At the Mountains of Madness."

[JonestheSpy]

People kinda started favoring "Elder Things" over "Old Ones" because the latter was a bit confusing, seeing as how Cthulhu and company are often referred to as "Great Old Ones" and are completely different beings from those in "At the Mountains of Madness."

I've always seen them called Old Ones, myself - "Old Ones" being the sentient, alien race that created the shoggoths but were generally not different then human in nature, just in different form, as opposed to all Deep Ones and Byhakee and other creatures that worshiped Cthulu and his ilk.

But yeah, the fact that Cthulu and Co were called the "Great Old Ones" makes it confusing, especially when you read about the human-like minor gods of Lovecraft's Dreamlands stories who are just called "The Great Ones".

[Closet_Skeleton]

Mixing the dreamland stories and the "cthullu" stories into the same continuity doesn't always work. Not that the continuity is very good between any of Lovecraft's stories.

[hamishspence]

In The Dunwich Horror, when referring to the Old Ones:

"Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy on Them only dimly"

and in this context, they don't seem much like the Elder Things.

That said- sources like the Necronomicon (which was what was being quoted) don't have to be entirely consistant.

[factotum]

That said- sources like the Necronomicon (which was what was being quoted) don't have to be entirely consistant.

Given the guy who wrote it was totally insane, I think consistency is unlikely, yes.

[hamishspence]

I wonder if any Lovecraft fans have ever tried to "defictionalize" the Necronomicon- a bit like J.K Rowling writing Quidditch through the Ages, The Tales of Beedle the Bard, etc?

Might be interesting to see one that's done well- the words fitting what was written in the Lovecraft stories, good diagrams of the various monsters, and so forth.

[Frozen_Feet]

You're telling me Call of Ctulhu supplements don't count?

[hamishspence]

True- but they're mostly gaming-centric.

That said, done wrong, it might be a bit like Cthulhu fluffy toys.

[Traab]

True- but they're mostly gaming-centric.

That said, done wrong, it might be a bit like Cthulhu fluffy toys.

Plushthulu?

[Mewtarthio]

I wonder if any Lovecraft fans have ever tried to "defictionalize" the Necronomicon

That strikes me as an incredibly bad idea.

In The Dunwich Horror, when referring to the Old Ones:

"Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy on Them only dimly"

and in this context, they don't seem much like the Elder Things.

That said- sources like the Necronomicon (which was what was being quoted) don't have to be entirely consistant.

It's an in-universe mistake, though. One of the researchers who discovered the Elder Things thought that the whole scene looked like something out of the Necronomicon, so everyone jokingly called the discoveries "Old Ones" because that term pops up in the book.

[Frozen_Feet]

Mixing the dreamland stories and the "cthullu" stories into the same continuity doesn't always work. Not that the continuity is very good between any of Lovecraft's stories.

That's because the continuity was a red herring in the first place. Lovecraft did not seek to create a coherent mythos, he just threw around names to create a sense of mystique and connection. The idea that there is single, consistent story to be found is largely invention of later authors.

[Science Officer]

I wonder if any Lovecraft fans have ever tried to "defictionalize" the Necronomicon- a bit like J.K Rowling writing Quidditch through the Ages, The Tales of Beedle the Bard, etc?

Might be interesting to see one that's done well- the words fitting what was written in the Lovecraft stories, good diagrams of the various monsters, and so forth.

I was about to link you to the Wikinomicon, the free, online Necronomicon that anyone can edit, but I found it to have disappeared, and been replaced by a domain squatter/marketing site/thingy. Perhaps their writings were deemed too outre, too blasphemous.

And yeah, someone tried to defictionalise the Necronomicon, sort of. But considering that the first person to write the Necronomicon was devoured in broad daylight by unseen beasts, perhaps it's not advisable.

I'd also like to echo that Lovecraft didn't really intend that all, or possibly not any, of his stories have a coherent mythos. Also, there are far more arcane books in the "mythos" than the Necronomicon.

[rayne_dragon]

I wonder if any Lovecraft fans have ever tried to "defictionalize" the Necronomicon- a bit like J.K Rowling writing Quidditch through the Ages, The Tales of Beedle the Bard, etc?

That strikes me as an incredibly bad idea.

One that has been done. I used to own a copy. It was rather lame.

It would be nice to see one that was done much better than that version.

If I could own any mythos tome I think I'd have to pick the Book of Eibon. Eibon was such a card... he's always so hilarious.

[Zaydos]

I always liked the Pnakotic Manuscripts or Documents or Fragments (I think they're referred to by all three names) which are the ones that talked about the Elder Things. Also highlights: first of the major books ever mentioned by name and written by pre-human entities.

[Bhu]

I wonder if any Lovecraft fans have ever tried to "defictionalize" the Necronomicon- a bit like J.K Rowling writing Quidditch through the Ages, The Tales of Beedle the Bard, etc?

Might be interesting to see one that's done well- the words fitting what was written in the Lovecraft stories, good diagrams of the various monsters, and so forth.

People have thought about it, but realized they couldn't pull it off. With all the mystique built up around it most writers have come to the conclusion that they couldn't meet expectations no matter how well they did. See Clark Ashton Smith's (I think it was him) comments about making a story called "Slave of the Chortling Fiend".

[factotum]

Plushthulu?

http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/plush/7cb0/

[DeltaEmil]

Keep in mind that there is also a deliberate mis-application of human terms to those things from the outer space by Lovecraft and his writing circle, to enhance the timelessness and incomprehensable nature of the "cthulhu mythos" (which of course wasn't fleshed out nor called like that by Lovecraft and his friends Howard or Bloch). Mistranslation from the "tongue" of the elder things into faulty human concepts and language, myth-making by having conflicting legends, and the source from the "nature" of the outside creatures coming from rambling madmen who receive these visions in their fever-induced dreams.

Although I personally make the following distinction (which doesn't have to hold true at all). Elder things = starfish aliens. Old Ones = strange alien-gods.

[Jahkaivah]

I tried to craft love once.

[JonestheSpy]

Although I personally make the following distinction (which doesn't have to hold true at all). Elder things = starfish aliens. Old Ones = strange alien-gods.

Funny, I'm inclined to do it the exact reverse. But yeah, just goes to show that humanity's attempts to classify and describe all of these ancient entities were, at best, problematic.

[Moff Chumley]

I thought that Old Ones, Elder Gods, and Outer Gods were separate groups. Wikipedia seems to think so. Anyhow, there have been numerous "Necronomicons" of varying quality, as far as I know.

[Zaydos]

I thought that Old Ones, Elder Gods, and Outer Gods were separate groups. Wikipedia seems to think so. Anyhow, there have been numerous "Necronomicons" of varying quality, as far as I know.

The Outer Gods were actually gods, awesome and powerful and all that. They just were. The Great Old Ones were unique creatures usually with some corporeal existence. They were still awesome and powerful but they weren't the cosmic force that is Azathoth (they could be beaten by a motor boat). The Elder Gods were made by August Derleth and were good Outer Gods from everything I can tell (although Derleth seems to have combined and confused Outer Gods and Great Old Ones anyway)... haven't really seen much he wrote but he also said that Cthulhu had an elemental affinity for water which shows he didn't read the source material very well (Cthulhu is specifically weakened by water and it's mentioned in The Call of Cthulhu and At the Mountains of Madness). The Old Ones is used to apply to several of the non-unique races.