Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II

[God Imperror]

for the record your peaches give mine a good spanking! Excellent work on the ones you have done thus far!

Nah, your PEACHes are really helpful, the fact that I am really obtuse and sometimes fail to understand basic English make me ask loads of question but most of the time they are surely stupid.

Also, it's nice to know my opinion of the Everready is shared, at least in the broad strokes.

Yes. The word I was searching for was bloated by the way, I normally try to not read PEACHes to other classes after I have PEACHed myself, to not be influenced.

I actually intentionally left those skills off. I tried to leave their skills at "things necessary for disguise," "Things that are are easy to physically mimic," and "things synergetic to mimicking," (plus UMD/UPD), I figure that if you want to be the diplomat you can use the 5 chosen class skills to gain Diplomacy & Gather Information.

Makes sense

Scaling class features: Mime's lay on hands (is lay on hands really that good to begin with?) Mime's AC Bonus (doesn't work in armor, so no enchantments, it gets worse at higher levels even with the scaling) Familiar/Psi Crystal (also not that good) & Unarmed Strike. (Again, can't be enchanted, needs to scale or becomes totally worthless) All other abilities that normally scale gain improved versions later on. The idea was that as you level you will use Reselect Abilities to replace older, outdated abilities with other, lower level abilities that haven't become outdated.

Okay (thought I have a fling for familiars)

I thought about it, but decided that it would just lock them out of choosing medium/heavy armor, and I didn't think half casting in armor would be that broken. (just look at paladin)

I wasn't really worried on power terms, more among the lines that there are not many arcane casters in heavy armor, well I suppose that there are duskblades.

Really!? Thanks!!! I might just get a kneecap at this rate...

Good luck it's going to be hard for me to vote, atm there are 4 classes that I really like, other than my own

[Temotei]

What are everyone's thoughts on getting rid of the capability to vote for yourself?

Possible consequences I foresee:

• Less or no contestants will vote because it'll lower each contestant's chances of winning.
• Bias toward the self is entirely removed because of rules.
• Contestants won't feel bad for voting or will feel less obligated to vote in order to win.

Again, thoughts?

[malonkey1]

Yeah...I think Self-vote may need to go away. It skews the data.

[Jester of Doom]

What are everyone's thoughts on getting rid of the capability to vote for yourself?

I think that's probably for the best. It eliminates "I want to vote for myself, but I have to vote for 2 other people, so I'll vote for the 2 least likely to win."

[Tavar]

Not really been in any of these things, but I agree with the just take it out portion.

[God Imperror]

What are everyone's thoughts on getting rid of the capability to vote for yourself?

Possible consequences I foresee:

• Less or no contestants will vote because it'll lower each contestant's chances of winning.
• Bias toward the self is entirely removed because of rules.
• Contestants won't feel bad for voting or will feel less obligated to vote in order to win.

Again, thoughts?

I don't like self voting.

I would mention in the rules that it is frowned upon and people should not vote to themselves because they are "biased".

As a side note 16/18 heroes finished

[Zaydos]

I'd go with disallowing you to vote for yourself; though I am worried that will get some contestants not to vote (personally I feel like if I'm participating it's my responsibility to vote, but can't say whether others feel the same or not).

[kanachi]

To be honest if someone wants to skew the votes they will simply hold fire and then vote for 3 classes which have no chance of winning. So ultimately you can’t stop someone who is all about victory from pursuing such an agenda.

However that being said I would like to think that everyone in the contest is an honourable sort... after all we have to remember that while winning would be awesome it’s really just "for fun". I believe the large amount of peaches and advice we have all given one another supports this honourable view... after all if you only cared about winning why would you help others improve their entries?

I think removing self votes is a great idea and I know that I’m personally going to really struggle to pick out my favourites!

You could easily publish a pdf with most this work merged together in a single tome called “Masters of Change” or something equally cheesy. You could probably even make a very small amount of $ if you marketed it right... the quality really is that good!

As someone whos gone through most the classes here and peached them I really do think everyone has good reason to hold their head high, no matter their final position!

[sirpercival]

I'm good with not voting for self. Easier to vote on other kewl entries that way.


I've now posted Solstice, and added prereqs to Equinox. I made each maneuver require maneuvers from the other season in the same discipline (e.g., Winter maneuvers require Summer maneuvers) to encourage/force spreading out.

I'm glad I reserved two posts, since the Solstice/Equinox post is 39k chars already. I'll post Revolution & the discipline feats in the next one, as soon as I write them.

[Temotei]

I would mention in the rules that it is frowned upon and people should not vote to themselves because they are "biased".

When it was simply frowned upon, it changed absolutely nothing about the voting results. In fact, it seemed to lower the number of written explanations for votes when it was there.

That's a pretty large amount of "drop it"s. Alright. The next voting thread will not allow voting for yourself.

[ArkenBrony]

i have finished my class, on time, PEACH only if you want to

[God Imperror]

When it was simply frowned upon, it changed absolutely nothing about the voting results. In fact, it seemed to lower the number of written explanations for votes when it was there.

That's a pretty large amount of "drop it"s. Alright. The next voting thread will not allow voting for yourself.

That's... sad. Not as in single attribute dependency, just sad.

By the way I am thinking of taking down my entry and posting it at the end in 3 posts since I am eating my space at fast paces

[Morph Bark]

I'm all for no voting for yourself. I originally always figured that to be the case anyway.

Though for the Son of Man I still am kinda glad I won by such a margin that if I had voted for the second-placer and not for the Son of Man itself at all, I still would've been one point ahead.

And with the Hemoscribe there hadn't yet been a specification you could vote for yourself.

[kanachi]

Though for the Son of Man I still am kinda glad I won by such a margin that if I had voted for the second-placer and not for the Son of Man itself at all, I still would've been one point ahead.

Best class won in the end, thats for sure.

[kanachi]

That's... sad. Not as in single attribute dependency, just sad.

?

By the way I am thinking of taking down my entry and posting it at the end in 3 posts since I am eating my space at fast paces

Dont do that to me man! I freeked right out in the middle of my works staff tea room with a Darth Vader style "Noooooooo!!!"

[Zaydos]

i have finished my class, on time, PEACH only if you want to

Did you post it in the contest thread? Because I couldn't see it. Is it before sirpercival's? Since his is the latest one shown when I checked.

[God Imperror]

?

It was a joke, a sad sad joke.

Dont do that to me man! I freeked right out in the middle of my works staff tea room with a Darth Vader style "Noooooooo!!!"

Oh, that's funny.

[Temotei]

By the way I am thinking of taking down my entry and posting it at the end in 3 posts since I am eating my space at fast paces

I'm fine with that.

[ArkenBrony]

Did you post it in the contest thread? Because I couldn't see it. Is it before sirpercival's? Since his is the latest one shown when I checked.

im between the form shaper, and the unfinished hero, i posted the class a while ago, and have been slowly working on it

[The Witch-King]

+1 to the not being able to vote for yourself thing

[God Imperror]

Yay! 18 Ancestral heroes are up! Now time to focus on the feats...

If anyone can check everything to make sure that it is still balanced enough I will certainly appreciate it (I promise to give a PEACH back )

[Zaydos]

Some notes on mine: Gave them the ability to use both claws with unarmed strikes starting at 12th level (1 attack per round at 1st, 2 at 2nd, 3 at 8th, 4 at 9th, 5 at 12th, 6 at 15th+ at the moment), might change this to 6th. Removed the Infinite SR vs Transmutation from their capstone to give it to them at Lv 17, splitting up the ability, might do something similar with some of the immunities (stunning for example).

Now to heroes:

Sublime Sword: I worry this boon will not be useful at high levels, or more accurately will be "choose a boost or counter" instead of letting you pick up a neat strike. The solution I thought of doesn't work because it would require you to either change the maneuver when you moved offerings (potentially really powerful or at least stealing a lot of thunder from swordsages and such by essentially giving you all maneuvers of low enough level known) or lock you in with X offering points.

Forbidden Knowledge: This boon makes factotums and every other skill monkey cry. Out of combat you now have "Skill check = yes". The spell is less problematic because daily uses will get expended quickly, meanwhile this is still quicker than taking 20 on a check and better (+10 better), and applies to things you can't take 20 on. I would advice making a new ability instead of just copying a spell, or copying Factotum's ability to boost their skills; as is this is a lot better than even the factotum's.

Smite Opposition might be a little weak (+20 damage to 1 attack/5 rounds, compare to Nightstalker's +6d6 sneak attack [roughly +21 damage to all attacks it applies to]).

Sting: Should say melee attack rolls, since it seems intended not to work with ranged (or should say "Strength or Dexterity modifier" or "normal ability modifier" or some such). Nice little touch of SADness.

Comet Strike:The +1 to attack when flying, is that supposed to be per offering point invested? Do you need to be able to make 2 attacks normally to use this ability's boon? Do the 2 attacks follow the normal rules for iterative attacks? Also just as a side note about this hero finally one with tumble... now to remake those githzerais. This is actually possibly my favorite hero so far, 3 useful abilities with none that stand out as Though it might have some of the best abilities, definitely does for the githzerai I was making (the terrain necessitates flight or tumbling/jumping/balance).

Roaring Dragon (I have comments on all three)
Dragon Hold: No boon effect for extra offering points? Sad that improved grab only works on things smaller than you unless otherwise noted, might want to allow it to work on creatures your size or even increase the max size you can grapple this way by +1 per offering or some such.

Dragon Maw: Can you use this every round (7d6 damage in a small cone, wouldn't be broken)? What damage type is it (if typed)? Seems a little weak actually, especially when you have so many +Xd6 on all attacks abilities. Might want to put a delay time and a damage type on and double the damage; Amon (1st level vestige) gives a EBLd6 breath weapon usable every 5th round.

Multifaceted Skin: Does the damage bonus only apply if you were actually hit by the energy type? At first I'd have said yes but then I saw the modification for breath weapon and thought it might not. Honestly I don't like this ability that much, not because it's really powerful, but because I don't think I'd ever pick it as my boon (the basic version is really nice). Also if the breath weapon is untyped typing it will generally (but not always) be a disadvantage.

Rockshield: Another I have to comment on all three. Like Meteor Angel seems a little better all around than the other heroes with 3 nice abilities and 3 nice boons.

Shieldbearer: +5 AC is nice (generally speaking looking at MM monsters AC +5 over medium/heavy armor is enough to stop a good number of attacks assuming you put ~1/3rd of your wealth into defense like the game seemed to expect). DC 25 + Charisma save versus daze every round is kind of crazy. The basic power is pretty good, especially because it specifies off-hand (not sure why you couldn't use it as a main weapon thematically, but mechanically I can see the problems which could arise). I'm also assuming it only works for 1 attack each round or the boon is even better. The boon, though, gets pretty broken pretty fast (3rd level) by letting you daze an enemy every round. I'd probably make it apply a penalty, give you DR, or something else.

Wall of Rock: Combined with Fast Shield and Shieldbearer's non-boon abilities this is pretty strong. The 1/5 rounds is all that stops it from breaking with them.

Fast Shield: So they only provoke on a hit? An interesting ability. Combined with its based ability it could be really fun/interesting though is unlikely to come up since hopefully you'll have the AC to not get hit. Probably wouldn't use the boon, but combined with Wall of Rock could be pretty good.

Power of Spirit: How often can you use the psionic power(s) granted by this ability? I don't know if there are any 1st or 2nd level psionic powers which completely break things when usable at will, but I know there are some spells which do (mostly out of combat).

Focus: I like the boon, it looks nice.

Illfather: This one runs into one major problem as far as balance goes. Minor Creation, especially Psionic. Black Lotus Extract and some poison DC optimization results in DC 31 (I think; it might be possible to get higher) fort saves versus 3d6 Con damage already; with Poisoner this gets to where things will not make their saves and will have to save multiple times a round each save more difficult (probably resulting in death). Final Caress is probably not worth it but ensures finishing something off if you invest in the boon (otherwise it's better just to hit them again). Resistant becomes infinite self only out of combat healing. This one's hard to fix because, well really it's just exasperating an already extant problem; one normally kept in check because of the options being difficult to have gathered in one character (good Craft skill, Psionic Minor Creation [1st level unlike its arcane version], poison use, swift action poison use, a few feats and items from I think Drow of the Underdark but I don't optimize poisons... you copy the item already in a way that stacks with it). Even with just Psionic Minor Creation poisoner probably becomes too strong since you've still got DC 26 Fort saves (at level 10) vs 3d6 Con damage on every attack which simply encourages the DM to throw creatures immune to poison at you which is fairly easy to do by the levels you have the Craft check to really make Black Lotus Extract. Before that poison is expensive and hard to come by which limits things somewhat, possibly too much. I might suggest doing something where you infuse your weapons with a poison with stats such as to be made for actual player use and divorced from high cost as a balancing factor since (Psionic) Minor Creation already destroyed that as one.

[sirpercival]

Okiedokie, I posted Revolution and two discipline feats; more feats, as well as all the flavor stuff, will be forthcoming.

Faux EDIT: They will be posted as soon as I stop getting Internal Server Errors.

[Zaydos]

Looked over the martial disciplines. Realized it would have been better all around if I had taken a break in between the two.

[sirpercival]

Looked over the martial disciplines. Realized it would have been better all around if I had taken a break in between the two.

Lol. No worries.

[God Imperror]

Now to heroes:

Thanks

Sublime Sword: I worry this boon will not be useful at high levels, or more accurately will be "choose a boost or counter" instead of letting you pick up a neat strike. The solution I thought of doesn't work because it would require you to either change the maneuver when you moved offerings (potentially really powerful or at least stealing a lot of thunder from swordsages and such by essentially giving you all maneuvers of low enough level known) or lock you in with X offering points.

Would giving access to a maneuver from the school that you picked your first level maneuver and for which you have enough initiator level be better as a boon?

Forbidden Knowledge: This boon makes factotums and every other skill monkey cry. Out of combat you now have "Skill check = yes". The spell is less problematic because daily uses will get expended quickly, meanwhile this is still quicker than taking 20 on a check and better (+10 better), and applies to things you can't take 20 on. I would advice making a new ability instead of just copying a spell, or copying Factotum's ability to boost their skills; as is this is a lot better than even the factotum's.

True, I'll search for something else.

Smite Opposition might be a little weak (+20 damage to 1 attack/5 rounds, compare to Nightstalker's +6d6 sneak attack [roughly +21 damage to all attacks it applies to]).

But this guy can bypass DR with it and gets CHA (in addition to STR) to attack with it.

Sting: Should say melee attack rolls, since it seems intended not to work with ranged (or should say "Strength or Dexterity modifier" or "normal ability modifier" or some such). Nice little touch of SADness.

I'll probably make it so it works with both melee and ranged, I'll check the wording.

Comet Strike:The +1 to attack when flying, is that supposed to be per offering point invested? Do you need to be able to make 2 attacks normally to use this ability's boon? Do the 2 attacks follow the normal rules for iterative attacks? Also just as a side note about this hero finally one with tumble... now to remake those githzerais. This is actually possibly my favorite hero so far, 3 useful abilities with none that stand out as Though it might have some of the best abilities, definitely does for the githzerai I was making (the terrain necessitates flight or tumbling/jumping/balance).

Yup they follow iterative rules and it was intended to be per offering point. Glad you like it Incarnum can do the flying already with pegasus cloak or stuff like that. It can get OP if you get battle jump (which I totally intend to make a feat lite) and pounce, falling on your enemy.

Let me know what you think once you play it. If you are going to try it I'll try to get the feats for it as soon as possible.

Roaring Dragon (I have comments on all three)
Dragon Hold: No boon effect for extra offering points? Sad that improved grab only works on things smaller than you unless otherwise noted, might want to allow it to work on creatures your size or even increase the max size you can grapple this way by +1 per offering or some such.

Oh, I forgot the offering point bonus on the boon. I was thinking on giving the ability to grab bigger creatures so yeah.

Dragon Maw: Can you use this every round (7d6 damage in a small cone, wouldn't be broken)? What damage type is it (if typed)? Seems a little weak actually, especially when you have so many +Xd6 on all attacks abilities. Might want to put a delay time and a damage type on and double the damage; Amon (1st level vestige) gives a EBLd6 breath weapon usable every 5th round.

It was intended as fire damage (and reading it, it does fire damage). Dragonfire adepts have similar dragon breaths (which cap at 9d6) and don't have a recharge waiting time. I might consider the delay though and giving them some breath effect.

Multifaceted Skin: Does the damage bonus only apply if you were actually hit by the energy type? At first I'd have said yes but then I saw the modification for breath weapon and thought it might not. Honestly I don't like this ability that much, not because it's really powerful, but because I don't think I'd ever pick it as my boon (the basic version is really nice). Also if the breath weapon is untyped typing it will generally (but not always) be a disadvantage.

You have to be hit by it (although you can resist every part of the damage).

Rockshield: Another I have to comment on all three. Like Meteor Angel seems a little better all around than the other heroes with 3 nice abilities and 3 nice boons.

Shieldbearer: +5 AC is nice (generally speaking looking at MM monsters AC +5 over medium/heavy armor is enough to stop a good number of attacks assuming you put ~1/3rd of your wealth into defense like the game seemed to expect). DC 25 + Charisma save versus daze every round is kind of crazy. The basic power is pretty good, especially because it specifies off-hand (not sure why you couldn't use it as a main weapon thematically, but mechanically I can see the problems which could arise). I'm also assuming it only works for 1 attack each round or the boon is even better. The boon, though, gets pretty broken pretty fast (3rd level) by letting you daze an enemy every round. I'd probably make it apply a penalty, give you DR, or something else.

It only works for the attack that you make with the shieldbearer ability, which is an offhand attack, even if you get more off hand attacks it is not shieldbearers so it is just once per round.

You cannot get a boon until 6th level though.

Wall of Rock: Combined with Fast Shield and Shieldbearer's non-boon abilities this is pretty strong. The 1/5 rounds is all that stops it from breaking with them.

It is a devoted spirit low level counter And I wanted some tankness available.

Fast Shield: So they only provoke on a hit? An interesting ability. Combined with its based ability it could be really fun/interesting though is unlikely to come up since hopefully you'll have the AC to not get hit. Probably wouldn't use the boon, but combined with Wall of Rock could be pretty good.

Yes it is intended to work on a hit, so you have the option to not invest so heavily in AC, maybe at high level you want to channel two ancestral heroes at once and this way you can keep tanking without such a heavy investment.

Power of Spirit: How often can you use the psionic power(s) granted by this ability? I don't know if there are any 1st or 2nd level psionic powers which completely break things when usable at will, but I know there are some spells which do (mostly out of combat).

You can use them as often as you want, as long as you have power points to expend, of course moving around your offering points gives you temporary power points but you would need to get the offering points out of the ability and then into the ability. There are two catches to the power of this.

First if you ever try to use an ability with a long duration and reuse it again before its duration is finish the first iteration stops working. And second if you move the offering points the effect of the ability stops working.

Overall I feel that you ain't going to expend more than 5 points (at level 20) on your abilities and you have troubles to recover them.

Focus: I like the boon, it looks nice.

Thanks

Illfather: This one runs into one major problem as far as balance goes. Minor Creation, especially Psionic. Black Lotus Extract and some poison DC optimization results in DC 31 (I think; it might be possible to get higher) fort saves versus 3d6 Con damage already; with Poisoner this gets to where things will not make their saves and will have to save multiple times a round each save more difficult (probably resulting in death). Final Caress is probably not worth it but ensures finishing something off if you invest in the boon (otherwise it's better just to hit them again). Resistant becomes infinite self only out of combat healing. This one's hard to fix because, well really it's just exasperating an already extant problem; one normally kept in check because of the options being difficult to have gathered in one character (good Craft skill, Psionic Minor Creation [1st level unlike its arcane version], poison use, swift action poison use, a few feats and items from I think Drow of the Underdark but I don't optimize poisons... you copy the item already in a way that stacks with it). Even with just Psionic Minor Creation poisoner probably becomes too strong since you've still got DC 26 Fort saves (at level 10) vs 3d6 Con damage on every attack which simply encourages the DM to throw creatures immune to poison at you which is fairly easy to do by the levels you have the Craft check to really make Black Lotus Extract. Before that poison is expensive and hard to come by which limits things somewhat, possibly too much. I might suggest doing something where you infuse your weapons with a poison with stats such as to be made for actual player use and divorced from high cost as a balancing factor since (Psionic) Minor Creation already destroyed that as one.

I would look into making a poison and making it work with said poison then. Probably initial damage 1 physical attribute chosen at the moment of the channeling with secondary effect 1d4 damage (of said attribute), increasing it by one per offering point invested. Probably will use the normal dc for anointed heritors abilities then (10 + 1/2 level + CHA bonus).

[Zaydos]

@sirpercival: It means somewhere in there it stops trying to be helpful and is more just annoyed.

@God Imperror: The Heroic Bondage (as a note I would change that name) feat which you can take at 3rd level gives you a boon point when you take it, do you need to wait till 6th level to use that boon point or can you use it now? If the former I'd make the feat require more skill ranks because it's a nerf till Lv 6, if the latter then it means you can get boons at Lv 3 (which is actually what I thought with many of them since many were mostly balanced against Lv 3 abilities with a combination of good scaling or just being something that stays useful). I thought it was the latter (hence the reference to 1/round save or daze at Lv 3, although 1/round save or daze at Lv 6 is actually really strong as a rider on an attack, especially with increased save DCs).

As a note on Wall of Rock I was talking about the boon, or more the boon + basic ability; Rockshield just has some good self synergy.

Also because apparently all my players are going home or to cons for Labor Day weekend my first session won't be until the 7th so it'll be a bit.

[sirpercival]

OK, fluff is up, as are a bunch of feats. There are more feats on the way (tactical included), but this is good for now.

Other than more feats and PEACHness, I now declare Cycle Warden finished.

[devlingreye]

I have a great pathfinder base class that i'm thinking of converting to 3.5. Unless you would let me enter a pathfinder class, its close to 3.5.

[Tavar]

Well, redesigned a great deal of the class. Another peach attempt is always welcome.