General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

[Jokasti]

I thought little sister was in the Middle of the Loom of Fate in a room with no way in or out, and no windows or doors.
Or something

[Reynard]

Oh, interesting.

If I remember correctly, Nox was seduced as part of a plan to bring him over to the god's side.

Well, he ended up being shanked and having his still-live spirit bound to the fabric of the loom, forced to keep it intact.

[Kyeudo]

Well, he ended up being shanked and having his still-live spirit bound to the fabric of the loom, forced to keep it intact.

That, of course, depends entirely on whether he existed in the first place.

[Jokasti]

Castrated too.
That was one of the more pleasant things that happened to him actually.

[Indon]

So, more theoretical rules for my Robot game. Warstriders have a separate health level track. This track consists of 5 -0 health levels, 10 -1 health levels, 10 -2 health levels, and 5 -4 health levels. It has dying levels equal to it's artifact rating x3. It does not passively lose health levels.

Also, for each 2 actual levels of damage dealt to the Warstrider, the pilot will suffer 1 Bludgeoning damage, which ignores all soak from armor.

If commanding a military unit from the front lines carries no health risks unless a hero uses a stunt to attack you personally, I should think that even the most basic warstrider should grant similar immunity to the pilot - you can't hurt the pilot at all without some sort of called shot, at which point you could then transfer some of your damage to the pilot.

But you know? I could almost see Luna setting up her Exalted that way, except giving them a unique background in the means of Evolution, working kinda like the Infernal Past Lives background, except with less/no drawback. "You may have killed me, but you shall never kill US!"

Another possible proposal: The ability to spontaneously learn charms, even to the point of incurring XP debt, in order to save your life - so for instance, if your health levels drop to Dying, and you aren't maxed on Ox-Body yet, you lose the XP and get another bucket of health levels. Kind of maintaining the Lunar theme of power-when-you-most-need-it-and-refuse-to-give-up.

I wonder what it would take for one or more Exalts to create another Incarnae - perhaps to replace an existing one, or for some other interesting reason.

[meschlum]

For the Lunar who wants to use most Sorcery without bothering to spend the experience for every new spell available...

Get a Ring Grace. Learn Worker's Gift, which has exactly NO drawbacks as you're not a Fair Folk, and gives you gossamer from time to time. Learn Style Improving Spirit. Post November errata, this gives you Style 5.

You now have the ability to perform any Sorcery you like if your Essence is high enough, up to (Ring) times per season. Said Sorcery works just like the real thing so long as it does not affect other beings who might want to resist. So Magma Kraken is probably out, but creating Manses, teleporting, summoning demons that only exist in your imagination, Invulnerable Skin of Bronze without the weight constraints... can all be yours.

And if you want to do it more often, there are ways.

[Fortuna]

Actally, I quite like the idea of floating charm slots, reassigned at a time, essence and willpower cost, that let Lunars be adaptable. Like, y'know, they're meant to be.

[Tavar]

If commanding a military unit from the front lines carries no health risks unless a hero uses a stunt to attack you personally, I should think that even the most basic warstrider should grant similar immunity to the pilot - you can't hurt the pilot at all without some sort of called shot, at which point you could then transfer some of your damage to the pilot.

My system does. You can't attack the pilot, only the warstrider. And, the damage thing isn't nearly as bad as it looks. The pilot takes half damage dealt as bashing damage, that can't be soaked by armor, with no minimum. So, your warstrider's hit for 4 levels of damage? You take 2 dice of bashing damage, but unless you have Stamina 1 that's reduced to 0. If you do have 1, it's reduced to 1, and then you roll that one bashing level of damage.

Basically, if you're hit really hard, then you will probably be damaged as well. Otherwise...yeah, not really.

Actally, I quite like the idea of floating charm slots, reassigned at a time, essence and willpower cost, that let Lunars be adaptable. Like, y'know, they're meant to be.

So...Alchemicals. That actually sounds kinda nice. Need to change the system, probably make it take much less time.

[Indon]

For the Lunar who wants to use most Sorcery without bothering to spend the experience for every new spell available...

Get a Ring Grace. Learn Worker's Gift, which has exactly NO drawbacks as you're not a Fair Folk, and gives you gossamer from time to time. Learn Style Improving Spirit. Post November errata, this gives you Style 5.

You now have the ability to perform any Sorcery you like if your Essence is high enough, up to (Ring) times per season. Said Sorcery works just like the real thing so long as it does not affect other beings who might want to resist. So Magma Kraken is probably out, but creating Manses, teleporting, summoning demons that only exist in your imagination, Invulnerable Skin of Bronze without the weight constraints... can all be yours.

And if you want to do it more often, there are ways.

Huh. So, can any being that gets a Ring grace pull this off? Also, does this ability work in Creation without existential side effects?

[Lord_Gareth]

Throw Down: The lords of the Neverborn decide that they all hate each other's guts and meet for personal combat. Who is left standing?

[Indon]

Throw Down: The lords of the Neverborn decide that they all hate each other's guts and meet for personal combat. Who is left standing?

Whoever can eat the most bystanders? They all share the ability to consume the motes of nearby ghosts to replenish their own essence reserves.

[The Rose Dragon]

OK, just to be sure, by "the lords of the Neverborn", you mean Deathlords, right? Because the Neverborn themselves lend themselves poorly to in-fighting, and they have no metaphysical or social superiors (Oblivion can be considered a very close ally, but it has no power over them).

In that case, I'd bet on either Dowager or Eye and Seven Despairs. They are the only ones who seem to actually care about things (usually in destructive manners), and when they do care, they really do care.

[DrakeRaids]

In that case, I'd bet on either Dowager or Eye and Seven Despairs. They are the only ones who seem to actually care about things (usually in destructive manners), and when they do care, they really do care.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha-gasp-hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahah

Seriously though. Fafl has the best bet in straight combat, without a doubt.

[Tavar]

All the deathlords care about things. It's just, for most of them, those things don't include completing the Neverborn's plans.

[Kyeudo]

Seriously though. Fafl has the best bet in straight combat, without a doubt.

Given that the Deathlords all have exactly the same Charms plus or minus a few custom Charms and some Sidereal Martial Arts, practically all Sorcery and Necromancy spells from the first two circles, and access to rediculous reserves of motes, a battle between the Deathlords would be closer than you think. My money's actually on the Bhodisatva Anointed By Dark Water, with his scene long perfect defense custom Charm.

[meschlum]

Huh. So, can any being that gets a Ring grace pull this off? Also, does this ability work in Creation without existential side effects?

You need to be able to use Fair Folk charms, so:

Fair Folk (who can also take Style as a background and skip on Ring)
Lunars
Eclipsoids
Fae-bloods (and possibly Exalted Fae-bloods)

In fact, Fair Folk have the hardest time of it, because you're limited to a number of uses per season equal to your lowest Grace. If you only have one Grace...


Style 5 explicitly gives you the ability to pull off this stuff in Creation. Creation-born directly impacted by the effect can spend wilpower to ignore it, which is why you refrain from attack spells. Or drop half a dozen Magma Krakens on the enemy to deplete their wp reserves.

How does one apply more than 5 Magma Krakens? Manacles of Virtue (on an Oneiromancy, so accessible to any essence user with a Grace) or Unsighlty Rigor Approach (Cup charm) let you enhance your Graces. Such as Ring. Or Heart. So all you need is high Essence, and you're set.

[Tavar]

Lunars can use fair folk charms?

[Sanguine]

Lunars can use fair folk charms?

Yep, if they have Graces.

[SurlySeraph]

Nox is the older brother of the 5 sisters... and he met an interesting fate. He was loyal to the Primordials. I'll have to crack open the book to get the exact details, but one of the key points was that Venus seduced him for some bizzare reason.

I'm going "because she's Venus."

Full story:

Spoiler

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It was so they could blackmail him. Then Jupiter had to make him actually care about having that secret exposed so blackmailing him would work. Then Saturn ended his loyalty to the Primordials. (Why didn't they just end his loyalty in the first place?)

But it didn't work. Nox plotted to expose the Incarnas' plan in the hopes that if he did the Primordials would let him take his sisters as a harem, even though he wasn't actually loyal to them anymore. Jupiter figured this out (Why didn't she tell the other Maidens, agree to unf Nox for the duration of the war to get another freaking Incarna on their side, and give him the cold shoulder after they won?) Mercury got him lost so he couldn't go tell the Primordials, and then Mars beat him up. (Why didn't they just get him lost or beat him up in the first place?)
Then Autochthon mindcrushed Nox and duct-taped him to the Loom, because if the Loom was sentient managing Oversight and the Bureau of Destiny would be easier. Because putting a brain-damaged Primordial-loving Incarna directly in charge of the bureau your Exalts work for - and also directly in charge of the thing that runs Fate - is clearly a smart way to reduce your workload.

[The Rose Dragon]

You made a slight mistake in telling the story. Nox is not brain-damaged. Nox is brain-dead.

[SurlySeraph]

EDIT: MoEP: Sids, p. 89. "Some might question the wisdom of putting a braindamaged Incarna sympathetic to the Primordials in charge of the Loom of Fate. Nox has never consciously abused his Oversight position to the detriment of Creation..."
Explicitly brain-damaged, and capable of doing things consciously so not brain-dead.

I wonder what it would take for one or more Exalts to create another Incarnae - perhaps to replace an existing one, or for some other interesting reason.

Sidereals have an Astrological Charm, The King Is Dead, that's designed for replacing gods up to the Incarna. They can explicitly make new Astrological charms, so an improved version of it is plausible.
They also have Willing Assumption of Chains, which is broader and gives a god new responsibilities and possibly a new nature, but not significant new powers; Spirit-Shape Companion, which makes a small god; and An End to Darkness, which makes demons into gods.

EDIT: I also missed the Neverborn/ Deathlord fight club question. Interesting question!

Of the Neverborn, He Who Holds in Thrall. All of his Deathlords are competent, and he's reasonable well-known and his tomb relatively accessible because his servants have had a noticeable impact on Creation. Unless the fight is "Who can reach Oblivion first?", in which case he's going to lose.

Of the Deathlords, I'm thinking the Bishop. I'll go through them all to explain why.

Spoiler

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The Bishop has Charcoal March of Spiders Style up to the Form. This lets him take 3 actions every time he would normally take one, which is hax. He could, say, use a non-magical flurry with a Rate 5 weapon to make 15 attacks, and because he's a Deathlord he can have each attack be with a high enough dicepool for them all to be perfect-or-die. Or move after an attack to break a flurrybreaker. Most of the other Deathlords have PDs that cost 3m per use, no cheaper than Flickering Wisp Defense. So he can do his 3 full actions per turn while using Flickering Wisp Defense for his Charm activation. Others have 3m perfect parries that don't count as Charm activations, but can't do 3 full actions a turn to wear down their opponent like that.
EDIT: Plus, since FWD lets you teleport up to [Essence] yards, it's a leaping flurrybreaker in addition to a defense. But the 3 actions per turn of CMoS style don't have to be melee actions. He can throw shuriken or Infinite Jade Chakrams instead, and jumping away just means you need to dodge two actions worth of attacks instead of three. And that's if he doesn't use the Abyssal mirror to Elegant Dance of Blade and Bow to switch weapons mid-flurry, in which case it's still 3 actions worth of attacks, minus the attack you dodged. And so if you don't have a way to catch up to him, he can just use FWD to pop out of reach every time you move while pelting your silly Deathlord face with rocks.
He is also working on a CMA called Gentle Embrace Style that's based on Oblivion itself, and "Once codified, it could become one of the deadliest martial arts styles ever invented." That's pretty nice. Also, overpowered with Oblivion-related fluff? a) Damn, I was going to homebrew an SMA about non-existence and now I have to justify why the Bishop doesn't have it. Or just say he does. b) Why wasn't it in Scroll of the Monk?

The Bodhisattva has his scene-length perfect parry, which costs 3m per parry. He also has a 3m perfect social defense, Irresistible Succubus Style for free at will, and good melee. None of those beat having a normal 3m PD plus 15 punches in the face per action.

The Dowager turns into a lion. Yawn.

Eye and Seven has a crossbow for an arm, and a scene-length perfect dodge for 4m per dodge. So he can't out-endurance the Bishop, and seriously come on. He's Eye and Seven Despairs. He's a cowardly loser even by Deathlord standards.

FaFL has Scarlet-Patterned Battlefield Style up to the Form. Without Strategy Arrangement is hax, but the Deathlords all have Ominous Portent Method to negate surprise for free, and the other low-level SPBS Charms are significantly less hax than the low-level CMoS charms. "For five motes, the Lion can render himself perfectly immune to any non-magical source of damage," which I assume is a perfect soak. If that's instant, which it sounds like, it's less efficient than other PDs. If it's action-long, it's nice but it leaves him vulnerable to effects that just need to touch the target to work. It's not enough to stop the Bishop's death-fu.

The Lover wins at social skills, but all Deathlords have Scathing Cynic Method for a perfect defense. Other than that, she is stealthy and S&M-y. She's not going to win.

Masky has the same perfect parry as the Bodhisattva, Juggernaut, and nothing else notable. Having a really big mean horse is not going to decide the fight.

Princess Magnificent has the Umbrella of Discord and knows Dreaming Pearl Courtesan style, though she can't use its capstone charm. Not that she'd want to, because turning into a gazellefish never helps. In any case, being too cute to hurt is not a perfect defense.
She does have a perfect parry that costs 2m per use. I know of no cheaper PD. But she's Princess Birdhat With Face of Adorable. She's not going to win.

The Walker has the same perfect parry as the Mask and the Bodhisattva, and knows Citrine Poxes of Contagion up to the Form. CPoS gives people diseases, has good medical charms, and has Inner Dragon Unbinding (think how Iron Heart Surge is supposed to work). You know what isn't very useful against Deathlords? Disease.

Bishop takes it.

[Indon]

EDIT: MoEP: Sids, p. 89. "Some might question the wisdom of putting a braindamaged Incarna sympathetic to the Primordials in charge of the Loom of Fate. Nox has never consciously abused his Oversight position to the detriment of Creation..."
Explicitly brain-damaged, and capable of doing things consciously so not brain-dead.

Interesting.

Honestly, though, I'm not liking that interpretation. Autochthon likely had enough of a hand in the creation of the Incarnae - and certainly the Maidens, as he designed Fate - to seamlessly disassemble Nox if required. Furthermore, I don't think he's the jury-rigging type - if the Loom is sentient, I would think that it is sentient of its' own accord.

This leads to an interpretation of Oversight that I think I'd lean towards, though - that the Loom itself is a sentient entity, with opinions and an agenda, and occasionally expresses this.

[Jokasti]

Seraph: you said at the end that Bodhisattva takes it, but in Bodhisattva's paragraph you said Bishop was better.
Great analysis though

[Tavar]

New Exalted Super Robot game opens up!

[Fortuna]

So...Alchemicals. That actually sounds kinda nice. Need to change the system, probably make it take much less time.

Not quite. Rather, you can purchase charms normally, and those charms are locked in place. The difference is that you can also buy floating charm slots, which cost more and can be filled with any charm you meet the prerequisites. Alternatively, perhaps they come with higher Essence ratings, so you have one per dot of Essence or something. The preliminary idea was that you could change them all over a single hour for free, a minute for 5m per charm, five ticks for 10m, 1wp per charm, or reflexively for 15m, 1wp per charm. However you implement it, the idea is entirely seperate from the Alchemical charm slots. The idea is not to make you interchangably competent at multiple things, but marginally competent at anything.

[SurlySeraph]

Seraph: you said at the end that Bodhisattva takes it, but in Bodhisattva's paragraph you said Bishop was better.
Great analysis though

"Bodhisattva" is a prettier word than Bishop and I have the attention span of a gnat. Fixed.

Honestly, though, I'm not liking that interpretation. Autochthon likely had enough of a hand in the creation of the Incarnae - and certainly the Maidens, as he designed Fate - to seamlessly disassemble Nox if required. Furthermore, I don't think he's the jury-rigging type - if the Loom is sentient, I would think that it is sentient of its' own accord.

This leads to an interpretation of Oversight that I think I'd lean towards, though - that the Loom itself is a sentient entity, with opinions and an agenda, and occasionally expresses this.

Autochthon going back and changing the Loom, and not just changing Nox instead, is almost the least nonsensical part of the Nox story.

[TheCountAlucard]

So, to my understanding, Whitewall's magical abjurations protect the city by preventing any creatures of darkness from entering without being invited by a true native of Whitewall, yes?

So what's stopping Fair Folk from waltzing in? It's only the unshaped that are creatures of darkness; why did they just merrily dance around the city during the Balorian Crusade?

[Kyeudo]

So what's stopping Fair Folk from waltzing in? It's only the unshaped that are creatures of darkness; why did they just merrily dance around the city during the Balorian Crusade?

Because Exalted's developers couldn't keep straight whether or not the shaped Fair Folk were creatures of darkness or not. Recently, they picked a line and went with it, though I think it retarded that the Unconquered Sun would decide not to label his historical nemeses as Creatures of Darkness. The Fair Folk are what he was made to kill!

[The Rose Dragon]

So, to my understanding, Whitewall's magical abjurations protect the city by preventing any creatures of darkness from entering without being invited by a true native of Whitewall, yes?

So what's stopping Fair Folk from waltzing in? It's only the unshaped that are creatures of darkness; why did they just merrily dance around the city during the Balorian Crusade?

Technically, it's ghosts, demons and Fair Folk, plus other creatures of darkness. The ban against Fair Folk is universal.

Also, the Unconquered Sun was made to fight the unshaped, since there were no shaped raksha at the time. The shaped raksha are simply too below his notice to be creatures of darkness.

[Yuki Akuma]

Interesting.

Honestly, though, I'm not liking that interpretation. Autochthon likely had enough of a hand in the creation of the Incarnae - and certainly the Maidens, as he designed Fate - to seamlessly disassemble Nox if required. Furthermore, I don't think he's the jury-rigging type - if the Loom is sentient, I would think that it is sentient of its' own accord.

This leads to an interpretation of Oversight that I think I'd lean towards, though - that the Loom itself is a sentient entity, with opinions and an agenda, and occasionally expresses this.

Nobody created the Maidens, at least in this timeline. They are omnitemporal and have always existed as soon as someone ever made them in any timeline.

And the Ebon Dragon was the one working on Fate when they appeared and screwed up his plans, anyway.