Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"

[Timberwolf]

For building scenery, there's quite a few. I can think of several model shops just around where I am where cheap grass mats and similar resources are in abundance.

For GW bits, though? Maelstrom Games is based in Mansfield (Nottinghamshire), and that's pretty much it. Even that is such a long trip for me that it's always easier to order from eBay or - on very rare occasions - ask around in my local GW for trades.
If you do that, make sure the staff don't mind though. Usually, if you ask nicely, they're fine with it but it's polite to make sure.

Ah well, cheers anyway. Next time I'm in Bristol, I'll hit Area 51 on the Gloucester Road there and see what they have.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Tried my 1500 point Black Templar tournament list against someone's daemons. Managed almost a total victory, losing only my smaller crusader squad and all but 1 of my terminators.

After Flamers (he had 3 units of 3) continuously butchered my foot blood angels having them bounce off land raiders was quite nice.

Wasn't expecting my hitting on 5s and wounding on 6s lightning claws to do well against a bloodthirster but the rerolls helped a lot and he died pretty easily. Which I think is my first bloodthirster kill. Would have gone differantly if he'd flown after my land raider and other crusader squad.

His horrors did manage to kill a few terminators due to me rolling 1s but by that time the termies had done their job and 1 was enough to kill the horrors on his own.

[Talkkno]

How did the 4e Battle of Macgree starter set compare to AOBR?

[Psychotic]

How did the 4e Battle of Macgree starter set compare to AOBR?

It doesn't compare well at all. Battle for Macragge comes with 10 hormagaunts, 6 genestealers, a bunch of spore mines and spore chimneys, a 10 man tactical squad, some kind of Imperial Personnel dude, some objective looking things and a crashed acquila lander. In terms of learning how to play the game, AoBR is way better. In terms of quantity of models that are useable, AoBR is way better. In terms of quality of models, AoBR is way better.

[Essie]

It doesn't compare well at all. Battle for Macragge comes with 10 hormagaunts, 6 genestealers, a bunch of spore mines and spore chimneys, a 10 man tactical squad, some kind of Imperial Personnel dude, some objective looking things and a crashed acquila lander. In terms of learning how to play the game, AoBR is way better. In terms of quantity of models that are useable, AoBR is way better. In terms of quality of models, AoBR is way better.

And it's certainly better than the horror that was the 3e starter set (was it even named?) - tactical squad and a land speeder against a mighty 16 Dark Eldar.

I think there were 3 jungle bushes in there too.

[Ogremindes]

And it's certainly better than the horror that was the 3e starter set (was it even named?) - tactical squad and a land speeder against a mighty 16 Dark Eldar.

I think there were 3 jungle bushes in there too.

And some ruins!

[Talkkno]

So its good to know they are at least improving

[Incomp]

It doesn't compare well at all. Battle for Macragge comes with 10 hormagaunts, 6 genestealers, a bunch of spore mines and spore chimneys, a 10 man tactical squad, some kind of Imperial Personnel dude, some objective looking things and a crashed acquila lander. In terms of learning how to play the game, AoBR is way better. In terms of quantity of models that are useable, AoBR is way better. In terms of quality of models, AoBR is way better.

I think you forgot the shield pylons, which are important, because just three days ago, they went into the construction of my Doomsday Device. (Which is more awesome than any shield.) Also, they're silly, and along with the weird hive a*hole vent thing, they don't actually exist within the game and serve only to be deceptive to new players. But I'm preaching to the choir.

[Renegade Paladin]

Even though they are not Monty Python quotes, maybe we can use these (at least the third one) as thread titles for the next few threads? I can't shake off the feelings having these as reminders might prove useful at times (such as this).

The problem with that, of course, is that this is the Internet.

[Winterwind]

Thanks for the advice, Wraith, Eldan and Cheesegear; I shall get myself a Vyper, then. Makes me all the happier, I quite like the model.

The problem with that, of course, is that this is the Internet.

We are the exception. Obviously.

[Renegade Paladin]

Obviously. Anyway, turned out we were mistaken on our opponents for tonight; they're Guard and Tau, not Eldar. Not sure what the Tau player fields, but he's sufficiently new that I'm not terribly concerned. We'll see, though.

[PanNarrans]

So, I was thinking about the size of units of jetbikes some more. I've realised that the reason I tend to field them in small units is because I'm really, really bad at avoiding assaults with them. 12 inch range guns, and if I want to use the flamer... it's just too close to comfort, even with the extra move in the assault phase. Once they're in assault they're doomed, so I've purely been using them as glass cannons.

Taking as many shuriken cannons as I can will help, since they can stay effective at range, stay alive and actually be alive to take objectives at the end of the game.

The easy answer, of course, would be not to take the Warlock with Destructor... but it's so COOL. And backup tankbusting.

I'll definitely experiment with a unit of 9 bikes with 3 cannons.

[Winterwind]

In that case, why not just take a Warlock with something different than Destructor? You'll still have the backup tankbusting, plus some other useful benefit, but won't be getting into charge range of your enemies all the time anymore. Because with Destructor, that's simply bound to happen - it doesn't have 9" range, after all, it has less, since you want to cover more than just a single model. If the enemies have Fleet of Foot, you're pretty much guaranteed to be charged then, and even if they don't all it takes is for you to misjudge a bit or get a bit greedy and they'll be right upon you.

[Razaele]

Hello again, fellow Playgrounders! It's been a while since I last passed by here. I didn't realize that getting a job would cut that much into my hobbies. Anyway!

Man, I cannot WAIT for the new release of the Grey Knights. I'm so excited that I'm studying the old codex just to see if I can rake in a bit of experience playing as them before the new codex comes out. I'm thinking of doing Land Raider spam, since the Grey Knights don't really have much by way of anti-tank... I think. Is Hammerhand any good? What other Grey Knight choices should I consider?

Also, what are your thoughts on the rumors on the Grey Knights Codex? I hear that they're going to be getting Storm Ravens, scoring Terminators, a new walker, and a bunch of other tweaks. I've also been wondering what GW is going to do to the Nemesis Force Weapons. I'm hearing rumors that the NFW's will either be Rending Weapons or Power Weapons. Hopefully they will retain the +2 to Strength, but that's probably asking a bit too much.

[Incomp]

Hello again, fellow Playgrounders! It's been a while since I last passed by here. I didn't realize that getting a job would cut that much into my hobbies. Anyway!

Funny how that works.

Man, I cannot WAIT for the new release of the Grey Knights. I'm so excited that I'm studying the old codex just to see if I can rake in a bit of experience playing as them before the new codex comes out. I'm thinking of doing Land Raider spam, since the Grey Knights don't really have much by way of anti-tank... I think. Is Hammerhand any good? What other Grey Knight choices should I consider?

I, too, am excited. Can't you tell?

I don't care for Land Raider spam, since 250 points for two lascannon is...bad. Real bad. You might be better served by missle+las dreads.

Hammerhand is very, very bad. It's, basically, a powerfist without the power part. Think about it. With your NFW, you're likely wounding on 2s. You cast hammerhand, you're almost always wounding on 2s. Not quite always, but usually. You then bounce off marines' armor. Which you didn't before. It might help if you absolutely must attack a greater daemon with your grand master, but that's what daemonhammers are for. And all that other anti-daemon crap that's in no way worth its points.

Terminators. You need more of them. What's that? You got more? Still not enough.

This is utter cheese, and not technically Grey Knights, but try using inducted guard to get a psyker battle squad. Then use weaken resolve to get the enemy leadership down to 4 or worse. Fire the leadership-based flamer. (Can't remember what it's called.) Profit.

Also, what are your thoughts on the rumors on the Grey Knights Codex? I hear that they're going to be getting Storm Ravens, scoring Terminators, a new walker, and a bunch of other tweaks. I've also been wondering what GW is going to do to the Nemesis Force Weapons. I'm hearing rumors that the NFW's will either be Rending Weapons or Power Weapons. Hopefully they will retain the +2 to Strength, but that's probably asking a bit too much.

Haven't heard anything that's at all reliable, and thus nothing worth saying.

[Razaele]

I don't care for Land Raider spam, since 250 points for two lascannon is...bad. Real bad. You might be better served by missle+las dreads.

Hmm. But then the Land Raiders will come in handy in the eventuality of me getting mobbed. Plus, it's a lot tougher and more mobile than the Dreadnoughts. You do have a point though, they are really expensive. I'll give it some thought.

Hammerhand is very, very bad. It's, basically, a powerfist without the power part. Think about it. With your NFW, you're likely wounding on 2s. You cast hammerhand, you're almost always wounding on 2s. Not quite always, but usually. You then bounce off marines' armor. Which you didn't before. It might help if you absolutely must attack a greater daemon with your grand master, but that's what daemonhammers are for. And all that other anti-daemon crap that's in no way worth its points.

I was thinking of using it as an emergency close-combat anti-tank weapon, actually. Just in case a Dreadnought gets close enough to assault. If not Hammer Hand, then what power should I take? Holocaust?

Terminators. You need more of them. What's that? You got more? Still not enough.

Hmmm. Should I take Psycannons for the Terminators, then sit them in the back? Honestly, I'm not that comfortable with Deepstriking since the Terminators will only arrive on the second turn at the earliest. And considering the price tag on these bad boys, that's probably half of my army at the very least. I'd rather have most if not all of my models present on turn 1.

This is utter cheese, and not technically Grey Knights, but try using inducted guard to get a psyker battle squad. Then use weaken resolve to get the enemy leadership down to 4 or worse. Fire the leadership-based flamer. (Can't remember what it's called.) Profit.

Ooh. That sounds rather nasty. Also, I haven't studied the Grey Knights Codex as much as I would like, so I'd like to ask, are Inquisitorial Storm Troopers able to take Meltaguns? If so, would that not be a reliable anti-tank option?

Haven't heard anything that's at all reliable, and thus nothing worth saying.

Hmm. How about predictions then? Opinions? What do you think should be added, what should be kept, what should be removed, etc.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Hammerhand is pretty rad if you need to bust a vehicle open; it's cheaper than Fists or Hammers and gets the job done.

Holocaust is rad too, since it's a way of dealing damage to units you're not actually in Assault with during your Assault phase. You only need the template to be in contact with one dude with a 2+ save so you're not going to be killing yourself with it.

[Wraith]

Also, what are your thoughts on the rumors on the Grey Knights Codex? I hear that they're going to be getting Storm Ravens, scoring Terminators, a new walker, and a bunch of other tweaks. I've also been wondering what GW is going to do to the Nemesis Force Weapons. I'm hearing rumors that the NFW's will either be Rending Weapons or Power Weapons. Hopefully they will retain the +2 to Strength, but that's probably asking a bit too much.

I think that Stormravens are likely, although only because it was specified in the fluff in Codex: Blood Angels. I'd honestly expect *any* new Space Marine Codex to include them from here onwards.

Scoring Terminators would be really, really nice, though I kind of expect that to be based around a piece of wargear or a special character, like Codex: Dark Angels. Having both your Troops and Elite choices be scoring by default sounds nice, but probably too good to be true.

I was thinking of using it as an emergency close-combat anti-tank weapon, actually. Just in case a Dreadnought gets close enough to assault. If not Hammer Hand, then what power should I take? Holocaust?

Hammerhand is pretty rad if you need to bust a vehicle open; it's cheaper than Fists or Hammers and gets the job done.

As poor as they are, Holocaust and Hammerhand are probably the best two choices in terms of psychic powers, but quite honestly you're better off just taking Holocaust (for an anti-infantry template) and then equipping one of your Terminators with a Thunderhammer, for free. I don't know if this will last into the next edition, but for now it's quite simply 'better'.

Should I take Psycannons for the Terminators, then sit them in the back? Honestly, I'm not that comfortable with Deepstriking since the Terminators will only arrive on the second turn at the earliest.

Generally speaking, GK Terminators need to get close to the enemy as fast as they can, preferably with something in the way to stop your opponent shooting them to bits as they advance. If you're not Deep Striking, they ought to go in a Land Raider, and if you don't want to do either of those then you should probably consider taking another unit.

Sitting them at the back of the board, not scoring and shooting away with one Heavy weapon per turn, is a safe but inefficient way of using them. Like most other Terminators, really.

Are Inquisitorial Storm Troopers able to take Meltaguns? If so, would that not be a reliable anti-tank option?

Units of 5-10 Troopers can take up to two Meltaguns, and one model can be upgraded to a Veteran which allows him to take wargear like Meltabombs and the like. Put them all in a Chimera to get them out and about as quick as you can, and you're good to go after any tank that you want.

Hmm. How about predictions then? Opinions? What do you think should be added, what should be kept, what should be removed, etc.

• The Psychic Powers will be completely overhauled.
• The Wargear will be mostly overhauled, and what's not will be updated (see: Storm Shields and Psychic Hoods )
• I expect that there will be at least one more Fast and Heavy option, not including the newer Land Raider variants and Stormraven.

Anything else would be guesswork, although I would *like* to see an option for a Grey Knight Assault Squad (with jetpacks) as that would just be really, really funny. I doubt that it'll actually happen though...

[Irbis]

I think that Stormravens are likely, although only because it was specified in the fluff in Codex: Blood Angels.

Only? So half a dozen sword-and-book icons in the box are not clue enough?

Scoring Terminators would be really, really nice, though I kind of expect that to be based around a piece of wargear or a special character, like Codex: Dark Angels.

Yup, it's supposed to be Kantor-like Terminator Captain, possibly Stern.

Equipping one of your Terminators with a Thunderhammer, for free. I don't know if this will last into the next edition, but for now it's quite simply 'better'.

Since when Terminators do not have access to 'hammers?

You'd be hard pressed to find such a book in the last 3 Editions, though, as the Wolves show, 'hammers might no longer be free, or we'll see only Daemon Hammers for variety.

Units of 5-10 Troopers can take up to two Meltaguns, and one model can be upgraded to a Veteran which allows him to take wargear like Meltabombs and the like. Put them all in a Chimera to get them out and about as quick as you can, and you're good to go after any tank that you want.

Note - buying them now, as OP asked, in preparation for new Codex, might be a waste of money as the Stormtroopers will possibly disappear, as will allies. The only non-GK units are supposed to be Inquisitor's retinues.

Well, to be honest, at current prices, buying any GK models will be a waste of monney, especially considering new ones will be prettier, and as WH Modelling thread just shown, you can make much cooler (and cheaper) stormtroopers out of scouts.

Anything else would be guesswork, although I would *like* to see an option for a Grey Knight Assault Squad (with jetpacks) as that would just be really, really funny. I doubt that it'll actually happen though...

As of newest spoilers, yeah.

[Renegade Paladin]

Bah. We tabled the poor kids; it wasn't even funny. My losses hit a grand total of one Chimera and half the veteran squad that was in it (lost to the explosion), while my partner lost one scout; the surviving half of the squad handily made its morale check and went on to inflict 24 wounds on a squad of Kroot in one turn through the use of their flamers, making it more than worth the loss of the tank. Next week: Paired Black Templars and Tau, in the hands of much more capable players. 1500 points per player, for a total 3000 point game.

[Zorg]

I think that Stormravens are likely, although only because it was specified in the fluff in Codex: Blood Angels. I'd honestly expect *any* new Space Marine Codex to include them from here onwards.

The picture on the back of the box is in GK colours.

[Winterwind]

I'd honestly expect *any* new Space Marine Codex to include them from here onwards.

Yeesh, I hope not. It's bad enough Games Workshop wastes half of their codex releases on armies that are almost exactly the same rather than using these to update armies that actually need it, they don't have to make them exactly the same, too.
I'm rather hopeful that this is not going to happen though - the fluff of the Stormraven seems to make it quite clear the Blood Angels and the Grey Knights are pretty much the only ones making use of it.

[SmartAlec]

I'm rather hopeful that this is not going to happen though - the fluff of the Stormraven seems to make it quite clear the Blood Angels and the Grey Knights are pretty much the only ones making use of it.

Well, it's often the natural progression of stuff. The Land Raider Crusader, for example, which was once a Black Templar thing.

[Penguinizer]

Well, I had a game with my tank army against orks. It kinda fell apart when I failed to kill his bikes and two trucks fast enough. I still tied because the store closed. I'd have lost though.

His army: Warboss on a Bike, Gazgull, nobs in truck with gazgull, biker nobs, boys, 3 killa kans.

Mine: Primaris Psyker, 2 basic mech squads, 3x Leman Russ, 3x Demolisher.

[WarMerged]

Well, I had a game with my tank army against orks. It kinda fell apart when I failed to kill his bikes and two trucks fast enough. I still tied because the store closed. I'd have lost though.

Saved by the bell, eh? Nothing like a store close to save your butt, huh? Bikes always surprise me, for some reason. I always come to the table thinking I need to blast them out of the water, but I always underestimate them. Maybe I just underestimate orcs in general.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yeesh, I hope not. It's bad enough Games Workshop wastes half of their codex releases on armies that are almost exactly the same rather than using these to update armies that actually need it

Blood Angels and Space Wolves might just be variants but needed updating and had gone the longest without having a proper codex of any army except dark eldar. Grey Knights also needed updating.

The "unnecessary" codexes for 4th ed were Tyranids, Guard and Space Marines, who were popular enough that they got given precedent.

The only army that actually seems to be so terrible that it needs urgent updating is Tau and they're popular despite that.

Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Daemons and Orks are fine. They're subpar compared to the newer books but far from unplayable.

Well, it's often the natural progression of stuff. The Land Raider Crusader, for example, which was once a Black Templar thing.

It was never Black Templars only. Other chapters could take it as a 0-1 option.

[Winterwind]

Blood Angels and Space Wolves might just be variants but needed updating and had gone the longest without having a proper codex of any army except dark eldar. Grey Knights also needed updating.

I will grant you Grey Knights - assuming they remain as different from regular Marines as they are right now - but as for Blood Angels and Space Wolves, I don't even understand why there was a need to have a separate codex for those in the first place. What would you think if there was a Codex: Craftworld Saim-Hann, Codex: Craftworld Alaitoc, Codex: Craftworld Ulthwe, Codex: Craftworld Biel-Tann and Codex: Craftworld Iyanden, each a separate codex pushing some other codex back for three months, with a bombastic release, each identical to the others except for 10%, but to further tease everyone who doesn't have a 5th edition codex yet containing twice as many options as any old codex? Wouldn't you think that was rather pointless indulgence and that having all these as one Codex: Eldar - as we have them now - was a much more sensible solution? Well - that's how I feel about loyalist Space Marines - pointless indulgence in releasing armies as separate that should all have been covered by Codex: Space Marines all along.

The "unnecessary" codexes for 4th ed were Tyranids, Guard and Space Marines, who were popular enough that they got given precedent.

The only army that actually seems to be so terrible that it needs urgent updating is Tau and they're popular despite that.

Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Daemons and Orks are fine. They're subpar compared to the newer books but far from unplayable.

You didn't even remember Necrons.
In any case, it's not about what is unplayable and what isn't (though 5th edition codizes are vastly superior - just look at the amount of options and the willingness to introduce special rules) - but that I see no justification to release the same codex several times over, each time pretending it was a new one, while there are armies that actually do have a completely different codex still waiting for it to be released. How about first releasing the stuff that cannot be covered by Codex: Space Marines before indulging in self-plagiarism?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Well - that's how I feel about loyalist Space Marines - pointless indulgence in releasing armies as separate that should all have been covered by Codex: Space Marines all along.

Because originally they were sensible and had the varient armies as mini-books that needed the main book (Eldar also got one, so :p). But then they changed the book those mini-books were expansions for and a good idea fell apart.

You may not think Space Wolves are special, but they had their own codexes in 2nd and 3rd edition and had to wait ages until their 5th ed book came out and actually made them playable again. Blood Angels got their PDF and Dark Angels could cope until they got their codex, but trying to use Space Wolves between 2004 and 2010 was a mess. Even Dark Eldar got a revision before Space Wolves.

Eldar never had their rules made completely invalid. They've been in a better situation than Space Wolves for a long time.

The Blood Angels book was unecessary for an army that doesn't even deviate from the codex and had an okay PDF, but saying the Space Wolves didn't need updating is just ignoring the facts because you don't happen to play that army.

Also, Eldar do technically get a whole differant codex for another faction of their species. Ask Tau players where their "dark" version is .

You didn't even remember Necrons.

I left them out because they're 3rd ed and I don't consider them to be that bad.

You also forgot Sisters of Battle, who I left out for the same reasons.

[SmartAlec]

It was never Black Templars only. Other chapters could take it as a 0-1 option.

... and now it's not. See?

[Tome]

I've gotta agree with Winterwind here. Couldn't they have released all the Space Marines stuff in Codex: Space Marines instead of pushing back the release dates for codices that actually needed an update? I mean, I'm pretty sure if they cut out some of the smurf-wank they could have found room for a short section on special rules for different chapters.

Ah well, hopefully it'll be Codex: Tau Empire and Codex: Necrons next up after the Grey Knights are done.

Though I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see a Codex: Inquisition, Codex: Sisters of Battle, Codex: Dark Angels and/or Codex: Black Templars between the two. Hopefully we just get SoB, but knowing GW it'll probably be more than that.