LGBTAitp - Part Twelve

[Blisstake]

It likely is. I didn't mean all mammals and birds do parenting, just that's it's much more common among them than say, reptiles or fish.

[Asta Kask]

New way of making bisexual mice

Scientists aren't sure whether they have figured out how to make mice bisexual or just so horny that they will mount whatever happens to saunter in their cage, but a fascinating study out of China sheds new light on the role of serotonin in sexual behavior.

Serotonin is a brain chemical long known to affect sex drive in humans. People who take anti-depressants like Prozac and Zoloft, drugs which increases serotonin in the brain, often have lower libidos.

For mice, the problem is particularly acute - give them too much serotonin and they have trouble gaining erections and ejaculating. But take it away and it's game on.

Researchers at Beijing's National Institute of Biological Sciences did just that. Working with male mice that lack a gene which makes serotonin, they introduced mice of both genders into their cages and sat down to watch the sex show.

Turns out the serotonin-deprived mice were quite the performers, mounting both male and female partners about 80 percent of the time. By comparison, normal male mice got funky with females between 60 and 80 percent of the time and didn't have much taste for their more macho counterparts - mounting them only 20 to 30 percent of the time.

Other signs backed up their mounting experiment. Serotonin-deprived mice sniffed the love scent of males and females equally and sang beautiful mating songs to both.

So, did scientists figure out how to make the mice bisexual or just really horny? That part isn't really clear. It's also not clear that any of this can be extrapolated to humans. For starters, mice already act far more bisexual than most hetero-oriented humans and scientists caution that between mice and men, we are built very differently. Also, there is no evidence that gay men who take anti-depressants (remember they increase serotonin) act or feel any less homosexual.

However it shakes out, we can be sure of one thing. The mice had a pretty good time.

[Grizzy]

Not for solitary animals like cats, it seems. The mother is often-times the only parent there for the child. Some pack animals even do the same while the father leads the pack.

In fact, most monkey species (humans being one of the few exceptions I know of) do it that way. The males gather food and protect the pack while the females make nests and take care of the young so why would a homosexual male take care of kids?

And what about homosexual females for that matter? Or bisexuals?

I'm no expert, though, so I can't say if you're right or wrong but it looks implausible to me. Sorry. :

LBGT men have traditionally occupied intermediary (or to use one of my favorite words, 'liminal') and often pivotal roles in a good number of societies, channeling a perceived other world as shamans or artists, acting as intermediaries between male and female 'issues', being court jesters, etc. The emerging science pointing to the possibility of a third and potentially fourth physiological gender is fascinating stuff. Here's a good quick rundown: http://nymag.com/news/features/33520/

Just the particular theory I like best; YMMV.

[Mina Kobold]

LBGT men have traditionally occupied intermediary (or to use one of my favorite words, 'liminal') and often pivotal roles in a good number of societies, channeling a perceived other world as shamans or artists, acting as intermediaries between male and female 'issues', being court jesters, etc. The emerging science pointing to the possibility of a third and potentially fourth physiological gender is fascinating stuff. Here's a good quick rundown: http://nymag.com/news/features/33520/

Just the particular theory I like best; YMMV.

They have? I thought it varied between cultures. The Viking belief was that it was OK for a man to be the "male" in homosexuality but worth ridiculing if one was the "female" while ancient Greek culture believed it to be better to sleep with men than women so it seems pretty diverse to me. May just be the limited knowledge I have on the subject, though.

I do thin that some people can be of a third or fourth gender but wouldn't it be more of a sliding scale?

I mean, I am asexual but have a desire to hug and cuddle people of both genders but leaning a bit on the feminine side so where do I fit in there? :3

Lesbian?

[Grizzy]

They have? I thought it varied between cultures. The Viking belief was that it was OK for a man to be the "male" in homosexuality but worth ridiculing if one was the "female" while ancient Greek culture believed it to be better to sleep with men than women so it seems pretty diverse to me. May just be the limited knowledge I have on the subject, though.

I do thin that some people can be of a third or fourth gender but wouldn't it be more of a sliding scale?

I mean, I am asexual but have a desire to hug and cuddle people of both genders but leaning a bit on the feminine side so where do I fit in there? :3

Lesbian?

Arglebargle, grammar fail. I meant to say that in certain cultures, there was a traditional role.

Re: Greek stuff, I believe they actually encouraged pederasty and generally frowned upon adult-adult homosexuality if it took place at the expense of heterosexuality. Thesmophoriazusae and Lysistrata by Aristophanes, inventor of the sitcom, are really funny and surprisingly educational satyr plays about Athenian sexual politics.
/pedant

As far as the gender thing goes, yeah, you're right; what we're starting to discover is looking an awful lot like different sexes or sub-sexes, which manifest as the gender roles I mentioned earlier. As a simple example, I can think of only two reasons why LGBT people should have a 50% higher left-handedness rate, and those are genetic clustering and sexual dimorphism, both of which indicate at the bare minimum that whatever it is that makes us queer is actually selected for.

But again, emerging science, so, grain of salt.

[Mina Kobold]

Arglebargle, grammar fail. I meant to say that in certain cultures, there was a traditional role.

Re: Greek stuff, I believe they actually encouraged pederasty and generally frowned upon adult-adult homosexuality if it took place at the expense of heterosexuality. Thesmophoriazusae and Lysistrata by Aristophanes, inventor of the sitcom, are really funny and surprisingly educational satyr plays about Athenian sexual politics.
/pedant

As far as the gender thing goes, yeah, you're right; what we're starting to discover is looking an awful lot like different sexes or sub-sexes, which manifest as the gender roles I mentioned earlier. As a simple example, I can think of only two reasons why LGBT people should have a 50% higher left-handedness rate, and those are genetic clustering and sexual dimorphism, both of which indicate at the bare minimum that whatever it is that makes us queer is actually selected for.

But again, emerging science, so, grain of salt.

Hurray for grammar!

I knew about that pederasty thing but I thought the idea was that women were for breeding (makes me want to punch the ancient Greeks, all of them) and that one should sleep with men because they were intellectually equal?

Either that or there's not enough test subjects involved.

Or maybe it has to do with oppression? Left-handedness was suppressed internationally barely a few generations ago so maybe it is simply a sign that openly homosexual people generally come from families that allows their members to use their left hand?

Or maybe what determines sexual orientation is closely related to what determines dextrousness?

Wow, I get a lot of ideas when it's late.

To the drawing board! MWAHAHAHA!

[Coidzor]

Or maybe it has to do with oppression? Left-handedness was suppressed internationally barely a few generations ago so maybe it is simply a sign that openly homosexual people generally come from families that allows their members to use their left hand?

I'm going to have to interrupt you here and ask you how you could come to that conclusion at all. Mostly because you seem to be making the conclusion that using one's right hand when one is left-handed would actually change one's handedness for the purpose that parental handedness influences the handedness of one's offspring.

[Grizzy]

I'm going to have to interrupt you here and ask you how you could come to that conclusion at all. Mostly because you seem to be making the conclusion that using one's right hand when one is left-handed would actually change one's handedness for the purpose that parental handedness influences the handedness of one's offspring.

I mean, "sinister" comes from the Latin word for "left". There's a long history of thinking southpaws were shifty.

In my experience, the suppression doesn't influence your handedness, it just makes your handwriting bad. Both me and my dad went to Catholic school and they wouldn't let us learn to write with our left hands, so now we have identical, awful handwriting. I fence left-handed and wear my watch on my right, but I can't write very well with either hand now.

So, it has the same level of success as "gayness curing" aversion therapy, which can just make you sort of not turned on by anything.

Wow, I get a lot of ideas when it's late.

Across the pond, eh?

[Mina Kobold]

I'm going to have to interrupt you here and ask you how you could come to that conclusion at all. Mostly because you seem to be making the conclusion that using one's right hand when one is left-handed would actually change one's handedness for the purpose that parental handedness influences the handedness of one's offspring.

I assumed they determined handedness by asking and that someone who's been using their right hand because they had to all their life would say they were right-handed.

I do not assume Lamarckian genetics, merely that there are a lot of families doing stuff far more archaic than something that was common less than a century ago so I assumed it was plausible that the oppression of one trait would happen in the same families as the other.

Sorry for being confusing, I still have much to learn about the English language.

Across the pond, eh?

I know you are, can't fathom why anyone'd live anywhere but the right side of it but whatever floats your boat.

[Grizzy]

I know you are, can't fathom why anyone'd live anywhere but the right side of it but whatever floats your boat.

I live on the right side... you live to the East

[TechnoScrabble]

The bisexual mice and Keveak's wording of his view made my day.

[Dire Moose]

LBGT men have traditionally occupied intermediary (or to use one of my favorite words, 'liminal') and often pivotal roles in a good number of societies, channeling a perceived other world as shamans or artists, acting as intermediaries between male and female 'issues', being court jesters, etc. The emerging science pointing to the possibility of a third and potentially fourth physiological gender is fascinating stuff. Here's a good quick rundown: http://nymag.com/news/features/33520/

Just the particular theory I like best; YMMV.

Interesting that bit about finger length. My index and ring fingers are nearly the same length on both hands, with the ring being longer on my right and index longer on my left. So it would seem that my right hand is straight and my left hand is gay.

Which makes sense in a weird sort of way, as I'm bisexual.

[Blisstake]

LBGT men have traditionally occupied intermediary (or to use one of my favorite words, 'liminal') and often pivotal roles in a good number of societies, channeling a perceived other world as shamans or artists, acting as intermediaries between male and female 'issues', being court jesters, etc. The emerging science pointing to the possibility of a third and potentially fourth physiological gender is fascinating stuff. Here's a good quick rundown: http://nymag.com/news/features/33520/

Just the particular theory I like best; YMMV.

That's... odd. I don't have any of those qualities (not certain on fingerprints, though), and I'm quite sure I'm gay

Then again, I've never really fit in very well with the "gay culture" thing. Unfortunately, all my friends are straight.

[rayne_dragon]

Interesting that bit about finger length. My index and ring fingers are nearly the same length on both hands, with the ring being longer on my right and index longer on my left. So it would seem that my right hand is straight and my left hand is gay.

Which makes sense in a weird sort of way, as I'm bisexual.

Me too (both bi and nearly equal finger length)! Go team B!

That's... odd. I don't have any of those qualities (not certain on fingerprints, though), and I'm quite sure I'm gay

Then again, I've never really fit in very well with the "gay culture" thing. Unfortunately, all my friends are straight.

They seem to be mostly be tendancies. Kind of like how the article says the stereotypes of gay men sleeping around like crazy and lesbians falling in love extra-fast are true: while they may be prevalent tendancies, there's nothing that says any given lesbian can't sleep around with different people like a hotel room pillow or that or a specific gay man can't make a commitment to his partner to save his life. The hair whorl in particular is rather uncommon since apparently it is only 8% of the population normally and closer to a quarter of the gay population, which while significant still means that the majority of gay men won't have a counterclockwise whorl.

While I feel certain that there is a genetic factor that predisposes one towards homosexuality, I don't think that it develops completely independant of nuturing and upbringing as well. Which makes me think that the possibility of an anti-gay pill that was raised in the article will never really be possible or more that partially effective. It still kind of creeps me out that such a personal trait is speculated to be something that could be genetically engineered out of the species (and probably with disasterous consequences given how evolution works).

[Blisstake]

Ah, I see. That is a pretty good point, that "more likely" can still be unlikely.

I laughed a bit, when I completely misunderstood what you were saying about gay men having the stereotype of "sleeping around." I thought you meant gay men were more likely to have narcolepsy or just really hate having their sleep interrupted

[Lyesmith]

Ah, I see. That is a pretty good point, that "more likely" can still be unlikely.

I laughed a bit, when I completely misunderstood what you were saying about gay men having the stereotype of "sleeping around." I thought you meant gay men were more likely to have narcolepsy or just really hate having their sleep interrupted

I hate having my sleep interrupted. Seriously.
There are reasons I hate the burny yellow face in the sky, and tip-top of the list is my not sleeping.

[rayne_dragon]

I hate having my sleep interrupted. Seriously.
There are reasons I hate the burny yellow face in the sky, and tip-top of the list is my not sleeping.

I more stereotypical of a lesbian (although I'm bi), but I have to say I share this in common with you.

Also, I'd like to add that I find the idea of queerness and narcolepsy having a common genetic cause amuses me greatly, but so does anything ridiculously silly like that.

[Murdim]

Here's a good quick rundown: http://nymag.com/news/features/33520/

That was a painful read. I...

... Why even bother ? It seems like each time I'm posting on this thread, it's to rant against this kind of thing.

The last pages are better, what with the writer at least paying lip service to the opinions of other, more considerate people. But it's too little, too late. Especially when he reveals Bailey's controversial treatment of bisexuality and transsexuality... after five entire pages of using him as an authority on the field. I won't elaborate on why, but somehow I'm not entirely conviced the author himself is that much outraged over said treatment.

Everyone should be let free to be who they are, as long as it hurts none. It is so easy to agree with this statement. And it's even easier to trample the idea behind it into the dirt. Needless to say, LGBT+ people are no exception, not by a very long shot, because narrow worldviews are powered by wishful thinking, and we have so much of it going on. Intolerance and hatred always find a way...

[Dire Moose]

Especially when he reveals Bailey's controversial treatment of bisexuality and transsexuality... after five entire pages of using him as an authority on the field. I won't elaborate on why, but somehow I'm not entirely conviced the author himself is that much outraged over said treatment.

I'm rather upset about that too. But then again, I'm a bisexual man (and obviously don't exist ) and I'm dating a transsexual woman (who is obviously just a gay man who is really turned on by crossdressing ) so I'm just a little bit biased.

[unosarta]

Everyone should be let free to be who they are, as long as it hurts none. It is so easy to agree with this statement. And it's even easier to trample the idea behind it into the dirt. Needless to say, LGBT+ people are no exception, not by a very long shot, because narrow worldviews are powered by wishful thinking, and we have so much of it going on. Intolerance and hatred always find a way...

Oh man... there are so many arguments I have had with others using this as the basic premise, and gotten insulted, yelled at, and considered a freak for. So... so much anger.

Especially when said people claim to be pro-LGBT, and talk about equality for LGBT people, and then go and turn on other people, and those who try to defend them...

I have had literally one conversation about any such topic that wasn't reduced to the other person yelling at me, and that was online, with a longtime friend who is really awesome, and who definitely wouldn't have yelled at anyone, no matter the argument they were trying to make.

[Jacklu]

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