Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XIX

[Urpriest]

It still has nothing to do with the character's ability to compete with CR appropriate creatures, a pirate campaign or not.

Eh, I wouldn't count on that. Some CR-appropriate encounters involve naval combat, after all. I actually would have loved to see a build built to use the vehicle rules, the closest I'm seeing is the build that took into account the need for Knowledge (geography).

Anyway, WinWin, few DMs will hand out ships. Fewer will hand out employment to the Unseelie Queen, or even have such a creature in their worlds (many don't even know what an Unseelie is, on account of being uncultured yobs). While this competition frowns upon being overly presumptuous about DM charity, when the class is designed with some expectation of DM charity then we allow some leeway in that respect. That doesn't mean that contestants aren't encouraged to be independent of DM handouts, which is why the Windwright Captain build will likely be scoring well in Use of Secret Ingredient and/or Elegance. But in this particular area, fitting the special requirement into WBL gives a bonus, rather than being the only way to avoid a penalty.

[Cartigan]

Eh, I wouldn't count on that. Some CR-appropriate encounters involve naval combat, after all. I actually would have loved to see a build built to use the vehicle rules, the closest I'm seeing is the build that took into account the need for Knowledge (geography).

If you are involved in naval, ship v ship combat as standard combat, then the WBL table will have to be modified in order to take into account the fact that you would have to have and equip a ship in addition to the characters themselves.

[Urpriest]

If you are involved in naval, ship v ship combat as standard combat, then the WBL table will have to be modified in order to take into account the fact that you would have to have and equip a ship in addition to the characters themselves.

No, because ships with vehicle stats are balanced by their cost. You can ram pedestrians too y'know. If you're fighting a sea monster you can fight it the traditional way, or buy a ship and use vehicle combat, and both options are at least intended to be balanced with each other.

[Thurbane]

It is worth repeating, so I'll say it again. Plot bennies fall into the realm of TO. If you're giving away free pirate ships and houses, why not give every character an artifact weapon?

Comparing a ship to an artifact in this context is just plain ludicrous. Anyhow, from memory artifacts don't have a listed gp cost, so by a slavish reading of RAW, they don't affect WBL anyway.

A ship is a large structure that generally won't have a direct bearing on combat, other than allowing it to take place in a different locale. It certainly won't affect combat the way a "free" powerful magic weapon would. Comparing the two is apples and oranges, IMHO.

Let me hypothesize this: someone earlier mentioned a scenario where PCs seize a dungeon after clearing it out, and claim it as their own. Should the DM then whip out Stronghold Builders Guidebook, slap a value on said dungeon, and declare that the party cannot gain any more treasure until their WBL exceeds the value of the dungeon?

To me, the scenario of stealing a ship is fairly similar.

WBL has been a recognised part of optimization since people started compiling builds on 339. It is an important facet of character design and development. An improper distribution of wealth causes some character types to fail. Many non casters for example, need items to function. Taking 10k out of your alloted wealth at early levels is a big deal for these classes. Failure to recognise this equates to failure at optimization IHMO.

You'll notice a lot of builds in the Iron Chef threads don't even touch on equipment, other than maybe a list of suggested gear as a footnote. Getting hung up on WBL and gear isn't really a part of these competitions (IMHO).

Also, as I posited earlier, what if the whole party chips in to purchase a ship, sharing the cost around. They come to an agree whereby the Dread Pirate is the captain/"owner", but they all have "shares" in the ship.

You can try to justify arguments about what flies at you table and make assumptions about what happens at mine, but it is irrelevant. The only yardstick worth mentioning can be found in the DMG, because I am fairly sure that it will be the one constant at every table.

And as I keep pointing out, the DMG specifically spells out it is a guideline.

A character going beyond WBL is not a houserule or bennie in the same was as, say, a game where a Monk gets full BAB.

And yes. Longships suck.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but in terms of qualifying for the PrC, the type of ship is totally irrelevant.

[Amphetryon]

You'll notice a lot of builds in the Iron Chef threads don't even touch on equipment, other than maybe a list of suggested gear as a footnote. Getting hung up on WBL and gear isn't really a part of these competitions (IMHO).

Indeed, those that make a point of specifying 'necessary' gear have been warned against by some IC judges.

[WinWin]

Comparing a ship to an artifact in this context is just plain ludicrous. Anyhow, from memory artifacts don't have a listed gp cost, so by a slavish reading of RAW, they don't affect WBL anyway.

Ships do have a cost. By a strict reading of RAW, you're saying it should be ignored.

A ship is a large structure that generally won't have a direct bearing on combat, other than allowing it to take place in a different locale. It certainly won't affect combat the way a "free" powerful magic weapon would. Comparing the two is apples and oranges, IMHO.

Use your imagination. You're playing a pirate. A ship is going to have an effect on a lot of combats. Especially an optimizard ship.

Let me hypothesize this: someone earlier mentioned a scenario where PCs seize a dungeon after clearing it out, and claim it as their own. Should the DM then whip out Stronghold Builders Guidebook, slap a value on said dungeon, and declare that the party cannot gain any more treasure until their WBL exceeds the value of the dungeon?

To me, the scenario of stealing a ship is fairly similar.

Do any of the PC's have the Landlord feat? Think about this. A simple dungeon in a lawless area is cheap. An urban one filled with traps and interesting features is expensive. Creative players are going to find a way to make this work for them. Why should players benefit from a free stronghold when others have to pay for one? So yes, some instances should have a price tag attached. As should a wand of Magnificent Mansion or Daerns Instant Fortess. Or a ship.

You'll notice a lot of builds in the Iron Chef threads don't even touch on equipment, other than maybe a list of suggested gear as a footnote. Getting hung up on WBL and gear isn't really a part of these competitions (IMHO).

Except this particular PrC has a specific gear requirement. Don't believe me? Read Complete Adventurer. Your preferences do nothing to change those requirements.

Also, as I posited earlier, what if the whole party chips in to purchase a ship, sharing the cost around. They come to an agree whereby the Dread Pirate is the captain/"owner", but they all have "shares" in the ship.

And as I keep pointing out, the DMG specifically spells out it is a guideline.

So you're saying the pirate should be taking money from other characters during a campaign to buy a ship. In such a case, he does not really own anything, the group owns the ship. How is such an example even relevant in the context of this competition? Has anyone here sumbitted a party of characters?

As for guidelines...Encounter levels and experience are also guidelines. Flexible, but ignoring them is inadvisable. Semantics won't change this.

A character going beyond WBL is not a houserule or bennie in the same was as, say, a game where a Monk gets full BAB.

Oh...This is a houserule competition. Silly me. Carry on.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but in terms of qualifying for the PrC, the type of ship is totally irrelevant.

Have fun playing the terror of the high seas in an oversized, single sailed rowboat from the dark ages. Totally optimized, because you qualified to become a Dread Pirate.

I'm done. Y'all can go back to ignoring the requirements of the class now.

[Thurbane]

Ships do have a cost. By a strict reading of RAW, you're saying it should be ignored.

Again, WBL is guideline, not RAW.

Except this particular PrC has a specific gear requirement. Don't believe me? Read Complete Adventurer. Your preferences do nothing to change those requirements.

Snark aside, yes, I am well aware of the requirements of the PrC - I have acknowledged such multiple times in my posts.

So you're saying the pirate should be taking money from other characters during a campaign to buy a ship. In such a case, he does not really own anything, the group owns the ship. How is such an example even relevant in the context of this competition? Has anyone here sumbitted a party of characters?

You were the one who brought up the topic of how unfair the pirate having a ship before WBL would indicate would be on the rest of his party...

Oh...This is a houserule competition. Silly me. Carry on.

Yes, that's totally what I was saying.

I'm done. Y'all can go back to ignoring the requirements of the class now.

Which I'm pretty sure I never once did.

Winwin, we should probably leave it there - apparently we have some very fundamentally different ideas about the effects and application of WBL...and I don't think we're going to see eye to eye.

Basically, it's up to the chairman and judges of this comp to determine what bearing, if any, WBL has on the legality of builds in this thread, not you or I.

[Cartigan]

Have fun playing the terror of the high seas in an oversized, single sailed rowboat from the dark ages. Totally optimized, because you qualified to become a Dread Pirate.

Dungeon Master's Guide, page 155, top left paragraph.

I'm done. Y'all can go back to ignoring the requirements of the class now.

Are we playing by RAW or are we playing by your ridiculous interpretation of what RAW should be? By RAW, longboat qualifies for Dread Pirate. By RAW, a ship wouldn't affect WBL.

[T.G. Oskar]

PS. Since you are so big on the DMG, try reading page 155, top left paragraph.

Dungeon Master's Guide, page 155, top left paragraph.

Um...am I reading the same DMG as you? Because page 155 has an explanation on githyanki raiding tactics...

Maybe it's page 55? Closest interpretation, but it still gets a bit fuzzy. Page 51 in my DMG has something closely related to Treasure, and page 54 has a Behind the Curtain with WBL slapped in compared to treasures per encounter. It also states something about wealth being more than usual because of "potions, scrolls, ammunition and food" being expended...

Hey, so we need to determine the whole cost of food and ammo, or just slap "200 arrows, Murlynd's Spoon and that refillable waterskin" on the pages as well? Because that's part of how WBL is meant to be expended.

However, I believe Thurbane hit it on the nail: the chairman and the judges have the final say. If they, in unanimous decision, require all contestants to determine exactly how they gained a ship worth at least 10,000 gp on the build, then we'll see a lot of troubles in Elegance. If not, then it's a nice discussion, but better left somewhere else, probably under "what WBL should cover". Actually...that's a good question. Someone willing to post it up somewhere, so that it gets more (and better) discussion?

[Cartigan]

Um...am I reading the same DMG as you? Because page 155 has an explanation on githyanki raiding tactics...

Bingo.
Read what it says and compare to his complaints about piracy and longboats.

[T.G. Oskar]

Bingo.
Read what it says and compare to his complaints about piracy and longboats.

I had the distinctive idea it was about the WBL, but...heh, it's a fun read.

Still: the PHB isn't the only source for vessels. IIRC, Arms and Equipment Guide (granted, it's 3.0 but it still works) and Stormwrack offer good choices. Not to mention the Eberron Campaign Setting book and the Lyrandar elemental galleons, and sky piracy.

So...I have no idea why the longboat comment. Is it because it's not a galleon? I mean, pirates nowadays use yachts and smaller ships, for goodness sakes... (not to mention the Internet :P)

[OMG PONIES]

This stops now, everybody. This argument is getting dirty, personal, and off-topic. It's reminding me a bit too much of the Green Star Adept round, which I believe resulted in some bannings. Let's not get into that again.

There's not a single character in this round that entered the class prior to 6th level. A 5th level PC has WBL of 9K, and while the ship requirement is 10K, there are ways (even without any specialized training) for a character to build or acquire such a ship with that WBL*. We're not talking about a character who assumed they had a flying warship at first level, so (IMHO) the point is moot. All of the characters can afford boats at the levels presented.

*In my post above, I found a way to do it for 7500 gp that any character in this competition could use.

[gbprime]

especially the build that uses Windwright Captain. PrC comes with a 92k Skyship. Pure Win.

[Cartigan]

There's not a single character in this round that entered the class prior to 6th level.

You can't. It has a 8 rank skill requirement. Two in fact.

[OMG PONIES]

You can't. It has a 8 rank skill requirement. Two in fact.

I know. My point was the WBL issue that had been raised, and that all of the characters presented could single-handedly purchase or build the necessary ship with their WBL.

[Amphetryon]

I know. My point was the WBL issue that had been raised, and that all of the characters presented could single-handedly purchase or build the necessary ship with their WBL.

Firechanter continues the discussion here, very civilly.

[Zaq]

Four and a half builds judged. Four and a half builds to go.

I may or may not be able to keep up the sheer volume of words I've been churning out so far; it's no longer the weekend, after all. I've current spat out something in the 7k range. If you're one of the people I'm judging later, I'm going to do my very best to give you the same level of attention and analysis that I've been giving everyone else, but I'm going to try to temper that with the realization that speed is a virtue. Rest assured that just because your word count may not be as high as the next person's doesn't mean that I'm not carefully considering and analyzing what your build can (and, just as critically, can't) do.

It's interesting to see different builds fall flat in such similar ways. Judging is offering me quite a new perspective on this competition. In particular, while I always knew (on some level) that doing it properly and really reading the builds takes a lot of time, I'm becoming ever so acutely aware of just how much time that is. Still, I know that I feel shortchanged when it seems like a judge just skimmed over what I put so much effort into, so I'm trying to extend the same courtesy to the current batch of contestants that I'd like to see myself.

[OMG PONIES]

Thanks for the update, Zaq. vikingofdoom, any update on your judging?

[Zaq]

Status update: Very little progress. This and that keep popping up, and I haven't had the time or the inclination to put any proper effort into judging. If I magically find a chunk of time where I'm able to give this the attention it deserves, I'll certainly take it, but for now, I'll be shocked if I actually finish this before this weekend at the earliest. My apologies for the slow going.

[Cartigan]

Four and a half builds judged. Four and a half builds to go.

I may or may not be able to keep up the sheer volume of words I've been churning out so far; it's no longer the weekend, after all. I've current spat out something in the 7k range. If you're one of the people I'm judging later, I'm going to do my very best to give you the same level of attention and analysis that I've been giving everyone else, but I'm going to try to temper that with the realization that speed is a virtue. Rest assured that just because your word count may not be as high as the next person's doesn't mean that I'm not carefully considering and analyzing what your build can (and, just as critically, can't) do.

I can say I was expecting an analysis, not the thesis you have been working on, so that's no problem.

This is going to be a rather short order contest with a single judge...

[vikingofdoom]

I'm chugging away on it, but had to do an essay for my entrance into the university of my course, so that slowed me down quite a bit. Expect it completed by the weekend (or next Monday, whichever I get it done by.

[T.G. Oskar]

You know what we're missing? Judges may take their time, but what about the tallies!? We're so used to the tallies minutes after the judgings come up, so it's a bit unusual to lack a tally. I mean, even after one judge we've seen a tally, and it kinda got absorbed by the WBL discussion, so I think a rectification is at hand.

[OMG PONIES]

I thought it was a bit silly to do tallies after one judge, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes it.

Tallies after One Judge (before disputes)
{table=head]Entry|Place|Total|Average
Captain Four Fingers|GOLD|16.5|4.125
Alria Almaiath|SILVER|14.5|3.625
Darrigan the Gray Death|BRONZE|14|3.5
Halavin d'Lyrandar|Fourth|13.75|3.4375
Jacinta Marzoni|Fifth|13.5|3.375
Vincent Alzey d'Lyrandar|Fifth|13.5|3.375
Hendrik Van Der Decken|Seventh|11.25|2.8125
The Dread Ghost|Eighth|9.75|2.4375
Oltur Seadweller|Ninth|8.75|2.1875[/table]

It's still anybody's game, friends.

[Cartigan]

Now that I see them put together like that, does it strike anyone else as odd that there are 2 "d'Lyrandar"?

[OMG PONIES]

Now that I see them put together like that, does it strike anyone else as odd that there are 2 "d'Lyrandar"?

Not really--when people think of pirates they either think of boats or airships. When people think of airships, they either think Final Fantasy or Eberron. When people think of airships in Eberron, they think of House Lyrandar.

[gbprime]

Not really--when people think of pirates they either think of boats or airships. When people think of airships, they either think Final Fantasy or Eberron. When people think of airships in Eberron, they think of House Lyrandar.

And besides, they approached it differently, so they're not clones. One did Storm Sentinel, the other did Windwright Captain.

[OMG PONIES]

Personally, I'm surprised we didn't see any artificers. Granted, the class doesn't really offer them anything, but I thought for sure we'd see a pimped-out ship, Cannith-style.

[T.G. Oskar]

Personally, I'm surprised we didn't see any artificers. Granted, the class doesn't really offer them anything, but I thought for sure we'd see a pimped-out ship, Cannith-style.

Hey, this is "Iron Chef Optimization Challenge", not "Pimp my Airship"! That's why we have a Chairman and not Xzibit, and that's why we have judges and not a pimpin' crew! And come on, this was just too easy to work with...

But still: yay for tallies!

[Xodion]

Yeah, tallies are good

While we're waiting, any ideas what the next Secret Ingredient will be? I seem to recall Shinken mentioned it a few threads ago, but I can't remember where...

[flabort]

I see your white text. I see it all!
Nice joke, though.