Is it just me...

[drawingfreak]

...or does the Essentials Slayer seem to made out of rape?

Allow me to elaborate: Nothing I throw at him survives long enough to even think about surrender!

Comparing the Slayer to another PC's Warlock (using at-will Eldritch Blast and daily Twilight of the Soul), keeping in mind they have magical items that are close enough in level: the Warlock's Eldritch Blast has an attack of +9 (+10 with Prime Shot) vs. Reflex and can do 7-16 points of damage (8-24 with Warlock's Curse), and Twilight of the Soul has an attack of +9/+10 Prime Shot vs. Will and can do 8-18 necrotic damage (9-26 with Warlock's Curse).
The Slayer has a Melee Basic Attack with a +14 to attack vs. AC and can do 16-23 damage!

Do these numbers just not seem right, to you?

[Suedars]

Well your Warlock is attacking NADs while your Slayer is attacking AC, so the Warlock is generally going to need a result 2-3 points lower to hit. Also Warlocks are one of the most optimization intensive classes to get working well. At low levels of optimization they're way behind other strikers, whereas at high levels of optimization they're about even. You'd probably see the same results comparing a Ranger to the Warlock.

That said, Warlocks do have quite a bit of utility, whereas all the Slayer can really do is hit things.

[Mando Knight]

The Slayer's damage should be compared against the Warlock's total damage with Curse, since both then have their striker mechanic appended to the damage.

The attack roll disparity is a little odd, though (+4/+5 more is not normal). Mind breaking them down?

[KingFlameHawk]

These numbers are completely right. A slayer has a lot of little powers and abilities that increase it's attack and damage rolls really high so with the right powers, feats, ability scores and weapon (a +3 proficency goes a long way and spells don't grant proficency) it would not be unusual for it to be so high.

Don't forget that a Warlock is not only a striker, it also has controller abilities as well so they lose a little bit of damge for extra effects like twilight of the soul, it does 8-18 necrotic damage but also does ongoing 10 necrotic (save ends) and if he has the dark pact a -2 to the saving throws against the ongoing damage. And don't forget (like said before) it could be that the warlock is not optimized, maybe he didn't start with a 20 for his primary stat so his attack and damage rolls will be lower.

[Kurald Galain]

Do these numbers just not seem right, to you?

Yes. Yes, they do.

A warlock should do less damage than a slayer, but it also has daily powers, out-of-combat utilities, nasty status afflictions, pact boons, and shadow walk.

4.4 characters come pre-optimized, that's the point. If your players find combat too easy, simply use more monsters, or higher-level ones.

[Reis Tahlen]

Anyway, ranged-strikers always do less damage than melee-strikers, and on purpose; what would be the point of playing a melee if you can do the same from long distance, safely behind Defenders' line?

[Suedars]

Not really. Archer rangers are one of the top strikers. Ranged strikers have the advantage of range, but generally lose out on mobility, resilience, and the ability to make opportunity attacks. If a skirmisher decides it wants to go after the melee striker, he can easily shift away, and probably can take a couple hits anyways. If it goes after the ranged striker on the other hand, they're going to have a harder time getting away and will be more threatened by its attacks.

[Nu]

Not really. Archer rangers are one of the top strikers.

True, but melee rangers probably have a higher ceiling.

[WitchSlayer]

Really? Because someone was playing a Slayer in my dark sun game and he was always the first to go down.

[DragonBaneDM]

True, but melee rangers probably have a higher ceiling.

Agreed! I even compare my Archer to my othe party's Barbarian a lot, and the advantage for damage has always belonged to melee strikers.

Makes perfect sense, if you're putting your neck on the line, there should be a good bit more damage as incentive.

Heck, even Archers can get that with the Harrowing Swarm Style. Stand right next to them and get Prime/Called Shot bonuses? Yes please!

[Jack_Banzai]

Really? Because someone was playing a Slayer in my dark sun game and he was always the first to go down.

This is highly, highly unsurprising. It's the curse of the Barbarian - you have high hit points and do a ton of melee damage, so your first instinct is to charge into the fray and hit hit hit. The problem is that after your super-powered hit, you are actually fairly squishy because you don't have the damage mitigation of a Defender class, you usually don't have the healing surges, and you're probably not wearing plate armor plus shield.

To play a Slayer or Barbarian effectively, you have to learn to attack the flank, wipe out the stragglers. Either stick to your Defender like glue so you can get in the good hits with him tanking for you, or go after the lone caster/artillery with all of your might while the thick of the fight is somewhere other than where you are.

Crazily enough, the most effective Slayer build I've played so far in was an Eladrin Slayer in the mid-Paragon levels. Though at first he suffered a bit by not being a Strength build (Melee Training: Intelligence + high Dexterity), once he got Eladrin Soldier at level 2 it was all gravy. Gave him a Greatspear and as many charge-related feats and stances I could pile on him and made him go to town. Once he hit Paragon, it was all about the glory known as Fey Charge plus Power Attack (that +6 to damage is delicious.) Hey look at that Eladrin! He just blew past all of our Soldiers and hit our Controller (or Leader) for 60 points of damage in the first attack! Oh, crap, here comes the action point. And, using that marvelous Greatspear, I could attack through our tank with a charge, get a big sick hit, and emerge free from most melee reprisals.

[DragonBaneDM]

Crazily enough, the most effective Slayer build I've played so far in was an Eladrin Slayer in the mid-Paragon levels. Though at first he suffered a bit by not being a Strength build (Melee Training: Intelligence + high Dexterity), once he got Eladrin Soldier at level 2 it was all gravy. Gave him a Greatspear and as many charge-related feats and stances I could pile on him and made him go to town. Once he hit Paragon, it was all about the glory known as Fey Charge plus Power Attack (that +6 to damage is delicious.) Hey look at that Eladrin! He just blew past all of our Soldiers and hit our Controller (or Leader) for 60 points of damage in the first attack! Oh, crap, here comes the action point. And, using that marvelous Greatspear, I could attack through our tank with a charge, get a big sick hit, and emerge free from most melee reprisals.

That...that is one of the coolest, most creative builds I've ever heard of. Good job dude. You're so far out of the box, you've forgotten what the hell cardboard is!

[Jack_Banzai]

That...that is one of the coolest, most creative builds I've ever heard of. Good job dude. You're so far out of the box, you've forgotten what the hell cardboard is!

LOL. Thank you.

[Mando Knight]

If you MC into Swordmage, then you can get Intelligent Blademaster instead of Melee Training. Then you deal your full Int modifier on damage, and if you pick up a Heavy Thrown weapon, you can use your magic smarts to hurl it in a perfect ballistic trajectory instead of your brute strength (it states a basic attack. Not a Melee Basic Attack.).

[Jack_Banzai]

If you MC into Swordmage, then you can get Intelligent Blademaster instead of Melee Training. Then you deal your full Int modifier on damage, and if you pick up a Heavy Thrown weapon, you can use your magic smarts to hurl it in a perfect ballistic trajectory instead of your brute strength (it states a basic attack. Not a Melee Basic Attack.).

You just named my level 16 feat and retraining. :D

[ShaggyMarco]

Or, you know, go Melee Training: Dexterity and have one of the SADest builds I've seen in 4ed. You'll also be great with bows, since you get Slayer bonus damage on all attacks, even ranged.

Very cool, either way!

[Jack_Banzai]

Or, you know, go Melee Training: Dexterity and have one of the SADest builds I've seen in 4ed. You'll also be great with bows, since you get Slayer bonus damage on all attacks, even ranged.

Very cool, either way!

That's a pretty good idea, though you do suffer a bit in damage output in the long run. It would help free up some points for better Con and Wis (or Cha) to shore up the defenses.