Monk... Why do they suck?

[Lateral]

True. Very true. Monks don't suck because there's other stuff that does their job better, although that does contribute. They suck because they just suck mechanically, from even an objective viewpoint.

[Half-Orc Rage]

Let me ask something. If I gave the monk a full BAB, and otherwise left them alone, would that make them a decent class or not really solve the problem?

[Ernir]

Let me ask something. If I gave the monk a full BAB, and otherwise left them alone, would that make them a decent class or not really solve the problem?

You'd be increasing its numbers, which would make it a slightly more powerful class. That is, a Monk with full BAB would obviously be better than a monk with 3/4 BAB.

BUT. It still does not address any of the fundamental issues.

[arguskos]

They suck because tob, battle dancers, 3.5 ninjas, psychic warriors and fighters exist.

All do monkish flavor betterm

Well, except ninjas. They suck too.

So do Fighters, being better than a Monk doesn't mean they don't suck.

So do Battle Dancers, if we're discussing such.

[Lateral]

Let me ask something. If I gave the monk a full BAB, and otherwise left them alone, would that make them a decent class or not really solve the problem?

It'd be a start, but it only fixes part of the problem. Now, give them the ability to flurry as a standard action, allow them to wear light armor and get Wis to AC in it, allow their fists to be enchanted, and revamp their class features so they're less random and more useful. Either that, or go play a swordsage or a Tash-warrior, but not everyone will want to do that.

[Daftendirekt]

Core monk 20 sucks. But there are perfectly viable builds with monk as the base. The one I played was Monk 4/Drunken Master 3/Warshaper 4/Fist of the Forest 3... and that campaign ended, so I never bothered figuring out what the rest of the levels would be (only ever actually got to the warshaper 2 part of it, actually). This was all with a Crane Hengeyokai, btw. And Carmendine Monk for skill-monkeyage.

[Eloel]

Core monk 20 sucks. But there are perfectly viable builds with monk as the base. The one I played was Monk 4/Drunken Master 3/Warshaper 4/Fist of the Forest 3... and that campaign ended, so I never bothered figuring out what the rest of the levels would be (only ever actually got to the warshaper 2 part of it, actually). This was all with a Crane Hengeyokai, btw. And Carmendine Monk for skill-monkeyage.

Best builds that act like a Monk don't have levels of Monk.
Best builds that have a Monk level are Monk 1/Wizard&PrCs 19

[Lateral]

That's not necessarily true. Many of the best Monklike builds (besides Swordsage builds) take levels in Monk. Tashalatora builds require one level of Monk to work, and many builds use 2 to 6 levels of Monk in order to springboard into PRC's. It just sucks for anything other than dipping.

[AslanCross]

The first two levels of Monk are actually very helpful for some of the builds that well...build on their strengths. For example, Monk 2/Swordsage X can get a lot of mileage out of those prerequisite-bypassing bonus feats.

[Gnaeus]

Don't forget Monk1/Druid 19. A Kung-Fu bear classic.

[Noneoyabizzness]

forget opt class or builds


a monk is supposed to be some hand to hand master with somewaht near mystical body over mind ability


battle dancer does serious damage and either inspires feits and eventually flys

why slow fall when you can fly?

ninjas sneakattack and ki pool abilities more flavor

fighters-feats-more ability to be skilled as a hand to hand combatant

[Heliomance]

Currently got a monk playing in the game I'm running. Having taken Flying Kick, Snap Kick and Flaming Fists, he's doing quite serious amounts of damage. I suspect he's outdamaging the party Warblade, though I haven't kept close track of the numbers.

I did give him full BAB with Monk weapons, though.

[soulchicken]

flurry as a standard action, base some of the other abilities like ethereal and dim door usage to occur more like Tome of Battle manuvers. Dim door once a day is pretty lame imo, but a swift dim door that you can use 1/encounter plus you can recover it with a full round action is much better. Dim door + flurry and then movement adds a lot of battlefield movement to this character. I'd also like to see them get damage reduction earlier on in their career. You finally get 10/magic DR at level 20? Like nothing out there uses magic weapons or isn't considered magic at that level. Besides, what does 10/magic DR make you immune to? Level 1-3 or 4 characters wielding bows?
Maybe featherfall at will instead of slow fall.

If you are playing an optimized game, then monks might be behind on the power curve, but correcting some of the more poorly thought out abilities makes them much better. You are passively immune to poison and disease, can heal yourself and jump off cliffs without dying. Plus if this is one of the first characters you play, leveling this character is awesome. You get stuff every level, or you get improvements to the stuff you already have. Perhaps thats the trap that gets people; they have something in their special ability column every level.

[The Glyphstone]

If you are playing an optimized game, then monks might be behind on the power curve, but correcting some of the more poorly thought out abilities makes them much better. You are passively immune to poison and disease, can heal yourself and jump off cliffs without dying. Plus if this is one of the first characters you play, leveling this character is awesome. You get stuff every level, or you get improvements to the stuff you already have. Perhaps thats the trap that gets people; they have something in their special ability column every level.

That is a big part of the problem - they look shiny to newbies.

Immune to poison and disease...very few poisons have the DC to threaten players by the time the Monk gets his immunity, so it's not really decisive. And Diseases never threaten anyone at all (except Mummy Rot) thanks to Cure Disease. Wholeness of Body is less total healing than a a couple of Cure Light spells, and anyone can not just jump off a cliff, but jump from the top of a mountain without anything to grab if they have a 2,000GP item.

Oh, and they can talk to trees. Monks are the Lorax.

[Firechanter]

Eh... it's really funny how this keeps coming up, not only on these forums. On my "regular" forum, which is not terribly D&D-centric, the same happened just today, someone claiming "the Monk is supposed to be a magekiller and he's very good at it". The problems that are discussed here on a nigh-weekly basis apparently were never identified over there.

Another guy actually challenged that poster to build a Monk 20, and he'd beat him with a core-only Wiz 20 even when the Monk rolls only natural 20s and the Wiz rolls only natural 1s on both any d20 rolls. That I found a bit dubious, but I guess it depends on whether the natural 1s also apply to Summons.

P.S.: back when 3.0 was young, I thought Monks were totally overpowered. XD

[Gnaeus]

Another guy actually challenged that poster to build a Monk 20, and he'd beat him with a core-only Wiz 20 even when the Monk rolls only natural 20s and the Wiz rolls only natural 1s on both any d20 rolls. That I found a bit dubious, but I guess it depends on whether the natural 1s also apply to Summons.

Assumptions. They start out 5 feet away. No buffs or contingencies up. Wizard chooses to be CE. All summons and gated creatures also roll only nat 1s.

Wizard uses WBL to buy some padded armor of greater fortification. This makes wizard immune to crits. No stunning fist or quivering palm. Wiz also buys a heavy constitution + item to survive round 1.

Monk wins init. 5 foot steps to wizard & full attacks. Crits 3 times (negated by armor) for average 31+ strx3 damage. Last 2 attacks are both grapples, pinning the wizard.

Wizard casts silent Dimension Door (His concentration check should allow him to succeed on a 1), and is now 900 feet away from the monk.

Monk full runs towards wizard. Base speed 90, we will give him run as a bonus feat and free 30 move from somewhere, monk is now 300 feet from wizard.

Wizard casts Gate. Balor appears right next to monk. Wizard shouts "I order you to stand next to that guy and use Blasphemy for the next 2 minutes."

Balor uses Blasphemy for the next 20 rounds. Monk is Dazed (no save) for the next 20 rounds. 20 rounds of 5 magic missiles each kills monk.

I'm sure there are other ways.

[Doc Roc]

I've killed an L20 fighter with an L13 Wizard, allowing every reasonable ruling to go in favor of the fighter. The monk, in this situation, is actually even weaker than the fighter. To be perfectly clear, we compared sheets after the battle, and the agreement was that it was completely unwinnable for the fighter.

[Malevolence]

I've killed an L20 fighter with an L13 Wizard, allowing every reasonable ruling to go in favor of the fighter. The monk, in this situation, is actually even weaker than the fighter. To be perfectly clear, we compared sheets after the battle, and the agreement was that it was completely unwinnable for the fighter.

When I was first starting to play, the DM thought it was a good idea to throw a level 15 and 2 level 8s at the then level 5 party. We killed both the 8s and half killed the 15 before they got us all on the railroad tracks, and we walked. Said enemies were Monks, which explains everything.

[Leon]

Ok, well Thanks for taking me seriously, but from what I've seen my players do with a monk I don't really consider it weak.

Its probably what the greater portion of gamers find - that its a decent class and does what they want. Those that don't find that it does certain things are rather noisy about it on forums.

[Doc Roc]

Its probably what the greater portion of gamers find - that its a decent class and does what they want. Those that don't find that it does certain things are rather noisy about it on forums.

Ehhh, it's come up in three games I've run. I don't know anyone who is surpassingly happy with the class.

[Leon]

Ehhh, it's come up in three games I've run. I don't know anyone who is surpassingly happy with the class.

3 games out of how many across everyone who plays D&D?
The greater majority I'd hazard a guess just enjoy the game they play and not get bogged down in intricacies of things that routinely come up on this (and quite likely many other forums)

[The Glyphstone]

When I was first starting to play, the DM thought it was a good idea to throw a level 15 and 2 level 8s at the then level 5 party. We killed both the 8s and half killed the 15 before they got us all on the railroad tracks, and we walked. Said enemies were Monks, which explains everything.

Geez, even Monks aren't supposed to be that bad - a level15 one should have wiped the floor with a lvl5 party, unless you guys were fairly well optimized. Or your DM was just that miserable.

[Reynard]

Anyone else think that the most... catastrophic Monk Thread should be stickied at it's name changed to "BEFORE ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE MONK CLASS, READ THIS" ?

I mean, seeing a new Monk Thread every gorram week is a bit much.

[Firechanter]

If ceiling cat didn't mean for us to have a new Monk thread every week, he wouldn't have placed Monkday between Sunday and Tuesday.

[Kurald Galain]

You know what really sucks? A vampire monk...

/thread

[Leon]

You know what really sucks? A vampire monk...

/thread

Vacuums suck

[Eloel]

Vacuums suck

Unless they are branded Microsoft. It's the only thing they might ever have that doesn't suck.
Anyway, Monks?

[Teln]

Would having a monk take a Vow of Poverty help? I've heard it gets superb results. (Yes, this is a legitimate question, I've never played a monk but I'm considering one in a game that may or may not happen.)

[Malevolence]

Geez, even Monks aren't supposed to be that bad - a level15 one should have wiped the floor with a lvl5 party, unless you guys were fairly well optimized. Or your DM was just that miserable.

We were new players. I think the best PC there was a Ranger, who shoots things. Hardly powerhouses, and in no way comparable to anything I'd build today.

And aside from people that refuse to think critically, it is very painfully obvious that Monks suck. I've seen even brand new players give the PHB a once over and pronounce correctly that Fighters and Monks are terrible, and Druids are awesome.

[Malevolence]

Would having a monk take a Vow of Poverty help? I've heard it gets superb results. (Yes, this is a legitimate question, I've never played a monk but I'm considering one in a game that may or may not happen.)

Depends. Do you define help as "sitting helplessly on the ground, while everyone else is flying"? Or perhaps as "everyone else has standard WBL, you have things inferior to standard WBL"? Or maybe as "my character still takes a share of the useful character's loot, but instead of trying to use it to make himself suck a little less, he gives it away to random dirt farmers"?

Because if you do not mean any of those things, then no it does not help.