Hardest Monster you've ever faced?

[Surrealistik]

I don't see how water is like earth at all. While we're at it let's say moving through air is the same thing.

While we're talking about earth though, the ground will count as blocking terrain which means you don't have line of effect to it, so you can't place a zone there, anyways.

The zone's not underground; the origin square is on the surface. That said, Earth Roots' slide effect doesn't need line of effect to begin with.

But here's the real kicker: The Tarrasque just willingly ended its movement in the Web:

Move 1: Burrow 2 squares, top 2 squares of the Tarrasque are in the web, Tarrasque is immobilized, and cannot move again.

Say the Tarrasque saves, and had reserved an action to burrow again; another two squares. It's occupying every square that was previously beneath it. I don't even need to explicitly slide it through blocking terrain (because it occupies every square), and I have line of effect to the squares I want to slide it into. The medium/substance my forced movement is sliding it through clearly supports the Tarrasque. I think we're done here.

[Meta]

The zone's not underground; the origin square is on the surface. That said, Earth Roots' slide effect doesn't need line of effect to begin with.

But here's the real kicker: The Tarrasque just willingly ended its movement in the Web:

Move 1: Burrow 2 squares, top 2 squares of the Tarrasque are in the web, Tarrasque is immobilized, and cannot move again.

Say the Tarrasque saves, and had reserved an action to burrow again; another two squares. It's occupying every square that was previously beneath it. I don't even need to explicitly slide it through blocking terrain (because it occupies every square), and I have line of effect to the squares I want to slide it into. The medium/substance my forced movement is sliding it through clearly supports the Tarrasque. I think we're done here.

If he's 4 squares down you can't see him and then he's home free

[Surrealistik]

If he's 4 squares down you can't see him and then he's home free

All he needs to be is within 2 squares of Earth Roots for me to slide him; it doesn't say a creature I can see, it says a creature within 2 squares.

[Meta]

All he needs to be is within 2 squares of Earth Roots for me to slide him; it doesn't say a creature I can see, it says a creature within 2 squares.

you don't have line of effect so no you can't. It's also irrelevant. You can run while slowed, so he can move 4 squares in a single action. He's fine

[Sipex]

Ah, but the PhB conflicts in this point and the compendium does contain errata but we don't know if this is errata or not.

Plus the attack in question comes from the PhB (or one of the splatbooks meant to go with the PhB, not essentials) which would mean to me, that if the rule quoted from the compendium isn't in formal errata that it's up for debate.

[DontEatRawHagis]

Two encounters I did:

First:

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First encounter of Dark Sun Fury of the Wastewalker. I got rid of the constant 5 damage at the start of your turn due to sandstorm and still i almost blasted away the entire party of lvl 1s with one Psionic Detonation from a lvl 3 Silt Runner.

Second:

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Dust Devils that had a bit of too much luck on initiative. I ended up knocking out the wizard and the healer into quicksand.

[Surrealistik]

you don't have line of effect so no you can't.

I only need line of effect to the squares I want to slide him into which I have. I do not need line of effect to the Tarrasque itself; the effect states that he only needs to be within 2 squares of the zone for this to work, which he is, so it does.

It's also irrelevant. You can run while slowed, so he can move 4 squares in a single action. He's fine

Wrong again; don't you hate it when that happens? Page 234, slowed condition. Yes, it can take a run action, but it won't actually benefit from the speed increase.

Ah, but the PhB conflicts in this point and the compendium does contain errata but we don't know if this is errata or not.

Plus the attack in question comes from the PhB (or one of the splatbooks meant to go with the PhB, not essentials) which would mean to me, that if the rule quoted from the compendium isn't in formal errata that it's up for debate.

No it's not; the rules changed, the power didn't. By the RAW, there is no debate. Further, all the rules in the Rules Compendium are the definitive, and most up to date version of the rules unless otherwise noted.

[tcrudisi]

Wrong again; don't you hate it when that happens? Page 234, slowed condition. Yes, it can take a run action, but it won't actually benefit from the speed increase.

You've been mostly correct up to this point so I've not intervened, but you are wrong on this one.

Slowed condition, page 234: ... it can use powers and take actions, such as the run action, that allow it to move farther than its speed.

[Surrealistik]

You've been mostly correct up to this point so I've not intervened, but you are wrong on this one.

Slowed condition, page 234: ... it can use powers and take actions, such as the run action, that allow it to move farther than its speed.

Yes, it can _take_ that action, but it _doesn't_ say that action can actually allow it to move farther.

[Sipex]

I've not read the rules compendium, does it state that it's the definitive rule set for 4e, overriding the older rules? I can understand if it's errata because that's what errata is but otherwise this is just a rule of thumb that players implemented to make rules debates easier and would be up for discussion on a group by group basis.

I understand you said you'd give it up if your DM said 'no' but I want to get this more or less defined in general.

A lot of these debates turn into definition debates around here...

[tcrudisi]

Yes, it can _take_ that action, but it _doesn't_ say that action can actually allow it to move farther.

Wait, so you read something that says:
You can take an action, like running, that lets you move farther than your speed

and you read that as "you still only move 2"?

How do you judge something like a power that says, "Effect: Move 6 squares, then make the following attack." Are you arguing that you could only move 2?

Slowed simply says your speed becomes 2 and you cannot benefit from any bonuses to your speed. A bonus is defined as a number added to a die roll (Rules Compendium 309). Run allows you to move your speed +2. Since your speed is not a die roll, that is not a bonus, ergo you get the additional +2.

[Surrealistik]

Wait, so you read something that says:
You can take an action, like running, that lets you move farther than your speed

and you read that as "you still only move 2"?

How do you judge something like a power that says, "Effect: Move 6 squares, then make the following attack." Are you arguing that you could only move 2?

Slowed simply says your speed becomes 2 and you cannot benefit from any bonuses to your speed. A bonus is defined as a number added to a die roll (Rules Compendium 309). Run allows you to move your speed +2. Since your speed is not a die roll, that is not a bonus, ergo you get the additional +2.

You do realize then that if the definition of a 'bonus' as defined there were true without exception, there'd be no such thing as a speed bonus that the wording references, right? Countless powers feature a bonus to speed, so clearly bonuses as an incrementation to speed exists. As an example, the Avenger L1 Daily, Aspect of Might provides a +2 power bonus to speed.

EDIT: I did find an official ruling on Slowed and Speed interactions specifically though and yes, because of the precise language in that Run doesn't actually increase speed, the Tarrasque could travel 4 squares.

[Meta]

Yes, it can _take_ that action, but it _doesn't_ say that action can actually allow it to move farther.

You've let this get to you way too much so you won't admit you're wrong but it says pretty clearly that you can run while slowed and you'll move your speed plus +2

[tcrudisi]

You do realize then that if the definition of a 'bonus' as defined there were true without exception, there'd be no such thing as a speed bonus that the wording references, right? Countless powers feature a bonus to speed, so clearly bonuses as an incrementation to speed exists. As an example, the Avenger L1 Daily, Aspect of Might provides a +2 power bonus to speed.

Specific versus general.

If something specifically says that it gives a +2 power bonus to speed, that is specifically breaking the general rule.

If something says that it gives +2 speed? That is not saying it is a bonus, ergo it is not.

[Surrealistik]

You've let this get to you way too much so you won't admit you're wrong but it says pretty clearly that you can run while slowed and you'll move your speed plus +2

Except I just did. Still, the Tarrasque is going to get owned on any rock-like or similar terrain, no exceptions.

Also Wall of Fire in the Tarrasque's squares will work to prevent this; just use it instead of Web, takes 3 more squares of movement to go through.

Lastly, as ever, the Tarrasque run burrowing instead of attempting to go straight after the Wizard is questionable at best between its stated tactics and 3 Int.

[Sipex]

Okay, now you just seem desperate to be right. I can understand the want to say "This will work under X/Y/Z conditions." but it kind of loses it's edge when you say "This will work because the monster HAS to use X tactics due to Y reasons."

Really, that's the DM's call. They can decide that the monster is confused after a couple rounds why it isn't escaping and it decides to burrow to safety.

edit: Not any monster of course, but the Terrasque has an actual burrow speed. It's like insisting a Harpy won't try to fly away when on-foot becomes a problem because it's tactics say it tries to stay on the ground due to clumsy flight.

[Surrealistik]

Again, I hardly think it's a stretch. It's almost comparable to a zombie prioritizing targets instead of going after the nearest one, or respecting marks. You can disagree with that though, but it's worth noting the silliness of theory crafting a strategy for a creature that clearly doesn't have the mental faculties to enact it, or at least enact it immediately. I will grant though that the Tarrasque could figure out burrowing is a winning option eventually.

Wall of Fire still stops him from burrowing; each square he enters costs 3 additional movement, which means he can move exactly 1 square on each 'run-burrow'. It doesn't specify, like Difficult Terrain, that you only count squares of the wall being entered for the first time, and that squares the Tarrasque already occupied are discounted, just that he enters a square occupied by the wall.

[tcrudisi]

It says Encounter OR 5 minutes, not the lesser of the Encounter or 5 minutes.

I just wanted to bring up this one last point.

Just to repost it: Until the End of the Encounter: The effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.

Think about what the or means. Did you take a short rest? It's the end of the encounter. Has it been 5 minutes? It's the end of the encounter. If it said "and", that would mean that both conditions would have to be fulfilled. Since it's "or", only one condition need be fulfilled. In this case, that's either taking a rest or after 5 minutes.

By definition it is the lesser of the two. Otherwise it would be "and".

[tcrudisi]

I will grant though that the Tarrasque could figure out burrowing is a winning option eventually.

I am thinking of a Cat. Animal intelligence (3), but still very cunning. An angry cat will try to attack you at first. It will quickly learn that it's approach isn't working then go to other tactics that use it's abilities better. It'll try to hide and pounce, for instance.

A Tarrasque has burrow as one of its movement modes. That means that it has the tactic of burrowing up to its prey. Do you really think that a creature as old as the Tarrasque would not have learned how to burrow up to its prey? Sure, it may try to move up to it the old fashioned way for a few turns, but you are talking about a level 9 wizard, yes? I imagine that about the time the Tarrasque gets bloodied, it's going to go, "Hmm... this isn't working. Let me switch to another hunting method."

Actually, it's thought process would be "Ouch, ouch ouch. Dig. Earth." From there it will either try to escape or try to eat the Wizard. Ya know, depending on if it wants fight or flight.

[Surrealistik]

I just wanted to bring up this one last point.

Just to repost it: Until the End of the Encounter: The effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.

Think about what the or means. Did you take a short rest? It's the end of the encounter. Has it been 5 minutes? It's the end of the encounter. If it said "and", that would mean that both conditions would have to be fulfilled. Since it's "or", only one condition need be fulfilled. In this case, that's either taking a rest or after 5 minutes.

By definition it is the lesser of the two. Otherwise it would be "and".

Except that it could be interpreted that the user chooses which of the two conditions terminate the effect.

[Sipex]

Heh, I had a whole cat post written up as well but tcrudisi summed it up very well.

[Sipex]

Except that it could be interpreted that the user chooses which of the two conditions terminate the effect.

Your situation is very shaky then. It relies on at least two places where the rules aren't 100% to be interpreted the way you see it. Move has to mean forced movement is included and not simply end at move action, the power has to be end of encounter as priority and not whichever comes first.

It's feasible yes, but hardly RAW.

[Surrealistik]

Heh, I had a whole cat post written up as well but tcrudisi summed it up very well.

I'm not sure what the point of it was given that I acknowledged it could eventually figure out that burrowing was required.

Your situation is very shaky then. It relies on at least two places where the rules aren't 100% to be interpreted the way you see it. Move has to mean forced movement is included and not simply end at move action, the power has to be end of encounter as priority and not whichever comes first.

It's feasible yes, but hardly RAW.

One at best. The Web mechanic definitely works as per RAW, without question, and is simply not a matter of interpretation. It may not be RAI given that when it came out, the movement had to be willing, and the rules have changed since, by but RAW, it straight up, flat out works. Rules Compendium is the latest and therefore most definitive rules source unless otherwise noted. That said, it actually isn't even critical given Wall of Fire.

The ruling on duration by contrast is however.

EDIT: Customer Service also agrees with the WotC forum's unanimous verdict; think we can consider this resolved:

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[Meta]

It is impossible to place wall of fire in such a way that it blocks the tarrasque's escape in every direction.

Also, wisdom 18.

[Sipex]

I'm not sure what the point of it was given that I acknowledged it could eventually figure out that burrowing was required.




One at best. The Web mechanic definitely works as per RAW, without question, and is simply not a matter of interpretation. It may not be RAI given that when it came out, the movement had to be willing, and the rules have changed since, by but RAW, it straight up, flat out works. Rules Compendium is the latest and therefore most definitive rules source unless otherwise noted. That said, it actually isn't even critical given Wall of Fire.

The ruling on duration by contrast is however.

EDIT: Customer Service also agrees with the WotC forum's unanimous verdict; think we can consider this resolved:

Alright, I'll concede there, I just wanted some definitive proof.

We still need to resolve my second point though, is there anything which states whether End of Encounter/5 Minutes is meant to be 'First condition met' or 'If the first doesn't occur (due to not being in an encounter) only then does the second condition come into play.'

Not that it matters really because there's still the burrowing thing too.

I'm all for neat combinations which are incredibly effective (even Terrasque killing effective) but it has to be indisputable, otherwise the DM is probably going to turn it over at the first place the rules are unclear.

[Surrealistik]

It is impossible to place wall of fire in such a way that it blocks the tarrasque's escape in every direction.

Also, wisdom 18.

Architect's Staff totally shuts the Tarrasque down: a +2 instance of it will ensure some part of the Tarrasque must pass through a square of the wall a minimum of 3 times (U shape 4 right, 2 down, another 4 left, wall is 4 squares high), so his head will always be sticking out by the third movement (he can only descend a maximum of 3 squares), and easily within range of your Earth Roots, which will slide him back up.

[MLH]

We still need to resolve my second point though, is there anything which states whether End of Encounter/5 Minutes is meant to be 'First condition met' or 'If the first doesn't occur (due to not being in an encounter) only then does the second condition come into play.'

Rules Compendium page 226 defines the duration "until the end of the encounter" as "the effect ends at the end of the current encounter or after 5 minutes, whichever comes first." Emphasis mine. Even if you assume the specific language in Web is not meant to state exactly that and is actually intended to allow you to pick either of the two, it ends after five minutes either way.

[Surrealistik]

Rules Compendium page 226 defines the duration "until the end of the encounter" as "the effect ends at the end of the current encounter or after 5 minutes, whichever comes first." Emphasis mine. Even if you assume the specific language in Web is not meant to state exactly that and is actually intended to allow you to pick either of the two, it ends after five minutes either way.

Ah good catch. Yeah, in that case, not possible, unless we can somehow figure out a way for the Wizard to do an average of 38.4 damage each turn. You could still easily kill it with a small Heroic tier party though using more sources of auto-damage (another Wizard with Arcane Whirlwind Ping/Pong and Stinking Cloud would work admirably), but the solo L10 Wizard isn't going to fly.

[Reverent-One]

Architect's Staff totally shuts the Tarrasque down: a +2 instance of it will ensure some part of the Tarrasque must pass through a square of the wall a minimum of 3 times (U shape 4 right, 2 down, another 4 left, wall is 4 squares high), so his head will always be sticking out by the third movement (he can only descend a maximum of 3 squares), and easily within range of your Earth Roots, which will slide him back up.

Well, you can't slide him back up into a square with the Wall of Fire in it with Earth Roots (assuming I am correct that in understand Earth Roots lets you slide the target 2 squares) since entering a square with Fire in it cost 3 extra squares of movement, even forced movement. Forced movement may ignore difficult terrain, but walls/zones/ect aren't terrain. See PHB FAQ answer:

27. Can you slide a target multiple times (by using a warlock's diabolic grasp or harrowstorm powers) into a wizard's wall of fire for iterative damage?

There are several factors to take into consideration here. First, a target must move into the wall's space—that is, moving into every square of that space does not inflict iterative damage. However, if a target moves into the wall's space, then back out, and then back in again, it will take more damage; but remember, entering each square occupied by the wall costs 3 extra squares of movement (which might be possible with a high-level use of a harrowstorm).

[Crossfiyah]

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