LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

[Beelzebub1111]

Wow, I justt have to shave my "Treasure Trail" every once in a while. it's not that it's dark, it's just long. like a long thin line from the bottom of my chest hair to my belly buttom where it gets wider, then thinner, then wide again at the "treasure"

[bluewind95]

...So wait, did you not realize that even when people started bullying you about it or you didn't realize it until people started bullying you about it?

The latter, though it took me a while to really catch on. I was bullied a lot in general, so I usually tried to zone out. And I'm not very good at picking up social cues anyways.

[KenderWizard]

Blegh. I'll just stick with "penis" and "vagina" (and "labia", which sounds like a Greek Drakaina or something) and "naughtybits", thank you very much.

My sister doesn't shave her armpits and pretty much only does her legs for special occasions. She actually got into trouble at one of her jobs (medical receptionist) for not shaving her legs - something about hygiene, which is silly - which was extra-silly seeing as she spent all day behind a desk where noone could see her legs anyway.

I like having smooth legs. I especially can't imagine wearing stockings on unshaven legs - it'd be so uncomfortable And, fairly or not, I'm kinda grossed out by underarm hair, so I'll stick with shaving that.

What?! How in the world is it more "hygienic" for a receptionist to have shaved legs? Who was looking at her legs to decide anyway?! Ooh, weren't they worried about her arm hair? Her eyebrows? I would completely flip if someone told me I was required to shave my legs for my job. ... I think I'll run into trouble with my refusals to wear make up and high heels with an irrational company policy like that before they get to my legs, though, especially since I always wear tights with skirts! (I don't find it uncomfortable, but, like I said, I have very fine hair and I've never known different, so I can understand if you were used to it and/or had more stubborn hair, it could be.)

[AtlanteanTroll]

Some? Most. All. What's with people and long hair anyway? Yes, I like short hair and/or shaved scalps. So sue me.

Short hair and bald are quite drastically different.

[KenderWizard]

This is adorable.

[Coidzor]

...I'd have to question why it's "not nice" to divide people up based on gender in and of itself though. I mean, really now, there are certain contexts where it just makes sense to do so. For instance, group visits to the water closet facilities or room assignments for overnight fieldtrips.

[Worira]

Also, girls are yucky and have cooties.

[Beelzebub1111]

Also, girls are yucky and have cooties.

YEAH! and they're always throwing rocks at us

[Glass Mouse]

...I'd have to question why it's "not nice" to divide people up based on gender in and of itself though. I mean, really now, there are certain contexts where it just makes sense to do so. For instance, group visits to the water closet facilities or room assignments for overnight fieldtrips.

Interesting.

We don't want to divide the genders when it comes to social life, clothing, working, etc. But we don't question the division when there's nudity involved.

[Mina Kobold]

This is adorable.

D'aww, that's a cute Educational lesson.

...I'd have to question why it's "not nice" to divide people up based on gender in and of itself though. I mean, really now, there are certain contexts where it just makes sense to do so. For instance, group visits to the water closet facilities or room assignments for overnight fieldtrips.

You're probably right but could anyone tell me how that's supposed to work?

Especially the later seems odd, we didn't do that at my class' last trip and everybody still stayed up half the night as usual.

[Coidzor]

You're probably right but could anyone tell me how that's supposed to work?

What do you mean supposed to work? You've never heard of countries that don't have unisex restrooms before?

[golentan]

...I'd have to question why it's "not nice" to divide people up based on gender in and of itself though. I mean, really now, there are certain contexts where it just makes sense to do so. For instance, group visits to the water closet facilities or room assignments for overnight fieldtrips.

Those ones never made much more sense to me than the others either, so I'm not sure I agree.

[Frozen_Feet]

Interesting.

We don't want to divide the genders when it comes to social life, clothing, working, etc. But we don't question the division when there's nudity involved.

Which is something of a modern conceit if you ask me. It hasn't and doesn't hold true of all cultures.

At the bottom of it, it's based on the same biological reality as all division by gender. Men and women are noticeably different, and without clothes on that reality is quite hard to deny.

Other, more cultural factors I believe contribute to the fact: nudity is associated with sex. Most common form of sex is between men and women. So to remove an uncomfortable perceived sexual element from otherwise non-sexual events, we keep separate factors that would contribute to such uncomfortable thoughts.

It's like keeping two chemicals that are stable on their own but volatile together away from each other so they don't mix. Neither chemical might be dangerous on their own, but if they're brought close people instinctively become nervous even if the actual chance of disaster is nill.

[Nix Nihila]

...I'd have to question why it's "not nice" to divide people up based on gender in and of itself though. I mean, really now, there are certain contexts where it just makes sense to do so. For instance, group visits to the water closet facilities or room assignments for overnight fieldtrips.

Why exactly does it make sense to decide what bathrooms people use or what rooms they sleep in based on their genitalia?

@^ I would disagree that all division by gender is based on biology. For example, I don't see what nail polish has to do with biology. I might not be interpreting what you mean correctly though.

[Frozen_Feet]

@^ I would disagree that all division by gender is based on biology. For example, I don't see what nail polish has to do with biology. I might not be interpreting what you mean correctly though.

What I mean in this: there are noticeable differences between sexes. You can divide something like 90% of humanity in two categories based on that, and it's kinda hard to argue with it. What additional traits are then assigned or associated with these two groups might have nothing to do with biology, but the basic dichtomy and reason for assigning those traits is still the same.

It's like dividing a bunch of rocks into two equally large piles for you and me. The rocks might have nothing inherently pointing their either yours or mine, but because there are two people who both want rocks, those rocks become associated with either.

[Nix Nihila]

What I mean in this: there are noticeable differences between sexes. You can divide something like 90% of humanity in two categories based on that, and it's kinda hard to argue with it. What additional traits are then assigned or associated with these two groups might have nothing to do with biology, but the basic dichtomy and reason for assigning those traits is still the same.

It's like dividing a bunch of rocks into two equally large piles for you and me. The rocks might have nothing inherently pointing their either yours or mine, but because there are two people who both want rocks, those rocks become associated with either.

I'm having a little trouble following you here.

Yes, there are physical differences between sexes, and yes, there are mental differences between sexes as well, although we have no idea how much of these are because of social factors, and how much are biological.

What exactly do you mean that we "can divide something like 90% of humanity in two categories based on that"? I'm just not sure where this number comes from, or what exactly this is based on.

Again, sorry if I'm misinterpreting you. I'm quite tired, and not very good at communicating with text.

[Frozen_Feet]

That 90% is an estimation based on the simple fact that most humans on earth are clearly physically male or female based on their physiology. That's it.

And since we have two groups, we start to associate traits which are more common in one to that group. Ie., women have wide hips so wide hips are feminine, men tend to be more muscular so muscles are masculine etc.

Again, think of the rocks. None of the rocks has any inherent quality making them more mine or yours. But since there are two of us and the rock has to be given to either, it'll become my rock or your rock.

It is varying degrees of arbitrary, but it's still based on the same perceivable dichtomy between man and woman, or you and me.

(And we generally do have a fairly good picture on what differences are biological and what are sociological. Yes, some factors are yet to be sorted out, but it's not nearly as fuzzy (or important) as some people would make you think.)

[Nix Nihila]

Ah, ok. I get what you mean.

Would you mind sending me some sources as to how and what we know is sociological rather than biological?

[Viera Champion]

Hey!

Today at my school was the Day of Silence. For those of you who don't know what that is, basically people take a vow to remain silent the whole school day to show them and represent what it's like for a member of the LGBT community who has to be silent and hide their true selves because they are afraid of bullying.

Anyways, I got to school at 7:00 sharp this morning to set up the table and everything.

We had two sets of ribbons, one for those who wished to take the vow of silence, and those who wished to merely show their support and sign their name, but not be silent. Naturally, I took the vow of silence, since I'm part of my school's GSA, the group that set this up, and I'm gay myself so I have had to experience truely being silent.

So there were a few people who didn't take any ribbons, some were people I hate for multiple reasons, others just forgot and/or didn't see the stands.

Anyways... Yeah!

[golentan]

I always forget day of silence.

Why did nobody mention it before now? (not that it would matter, since I'm almost never allowed to be silent a whole day and definitely not today. Maybe tuesday)

[Blisstake]

Huh, Day of Silence, I remember that. A lot of people used it as an excuse to get out of participating in class

[Danne]

...I'd have to question why it's "not nice" to divide people up based on gender in and of itself though. I mean, really now, there are certain contexts where it just makes sense to do so. For instance, group visits to the water closet facilities or room assignments for overnight fieldtrips.

Because "not nice" is how you talk to five-year-olds when you want to teach them not to discriminate. It's not nice to hit and it's not nice to call people bad names and it's not nice to exclude someone because of their gender. Exceptions would just confuse children that little. Their brains aren't really developed enough to handle much more than that at once. (Like when you give them directions, you give them direction A, wait for them to do it, then direction B, wait for them to do it, then direction C, and so on, not ABC all at once because they can't process that much information.)

Also, was today the Day of Silence, or just your school's Day? 'Cuz I find it ironic that it's on April 15th (day taxes are usually due). Seems an apt day to keep quiet, but not for the right reasons. XD

[Viera Champion]

Huh, Day of Silence, I remember that. A lot of people used it as an excuse to get out of participating in class

Why overshadow the positives with negatives? I seemed to make it through the day just fine even with a certain person, who actually walked into school one time screaming about how much he hates me, being a total ass. That's a positive.

You know something is wrong when I'm giving advice on optimism.

[Blisstake]

Well, in my school, there were more kids being made fun of for participating, and more kids abusing the system than people genuinely participating. So in my case, it was actually more negative.

Not that it's a bad idea; I fully support any school that participates in Day of Silence.

Sorry if I'm bringing in too much negativity

[unosarta]

Well, in my school, there were more kids being made fun of for participating, and more kids abusing the system than people genuinely participating. So in my case, it was actually more negative.

Not that it's a bad idea; I fully support any school that participates in Day of Silence.

Sorry if I'm bringing in too much negativity

Oh no, dude, there were people like that at my school as well.

One guy actually said "yeah, I got one of em to crack, today," to the German exchange student (who honestly didn't really know what was going on). When he asked to explain, the guy said "I got one of those people who were trying to stay silent to talk."

I really wanted to kick his ass...
And the worst part is? He said it during lunch, at a table where at least half of the people were participating in DoS.

[cycoris]

Couple of things on gender essentialism and how it's used as a justification for segregated bathrooms and sleeping arrangements.

1. Variation among the sexes is greater than that between them, especially mentally, but also physically.

2. "Masculine" and "feminine" are incredibly ill-defined, especially if you admit that there are other cultures out there, as "masculine" and "feminine" are not cultural universals.

3. In fact, the idea that there ARE and ARE ONLY two sexes out there is not a cultural universal.

4. Segregating people by physical characteristics...to what end? I'll wager it's either to prevent them from gaining information, and/or prevent them from having sex. Which I think are really crappy reasons to do anything.

5. In select situations, the segregation may also be in order to create a safespace, but these spaces would not be necessary if it weren't for our society's determination to enforce the idea that men are and must be "masculine", and women are and must be "feminine".

6. Because "masculinity" doesn't actually have anything to do with how men are or what they want, just like "femininity" has nothing to do with how women are and what they want. If they did, "masculinity" and "femininity" would embrace the entire spectrum of human experience and would be even more ill-defined than they are now, not to mention meaningless and obsolete.

[rayne_dragon]

@^ *applauds*

...I'd have to question why it's "not nice" to divide people up based on gender in and of itself though. I mean, really now, there are certain contexts where it just makes sense to do so. For instance, group visits to the water closet facilities or room assignments for overnight fieldtrips.

So... where do I fit in?

Do I get my own WC, but have to sleep by myself all the time? Do I get assigned one option or the other? Or do I get to choose? If I get to choose, than what's the point of the division in the first place?

No matter which I use, in some way I'm transgressing the division since I'm essentially both female and male (regardless of how hard I might try to be one or the other). I always feel horribly uncomfortable in public washrooms since no matter which one I use I feel I don't belong there.

[Coidzor]

So, explain, who exactly is being harmed and how such that having gendered restrooms is nothing but oppression and immoral, please.

One guy actually said "yeah, I got one of em to crack, today," to the German exchange student (who honestly didn't really know what was going on). When he asked to explain, the guy said "I got one of those people who were trying to stay silent to talk."

I really wanted to kick his ass...
And the worst part is? He said it during lunch, at a table where at least half of the people were participating in DoS.

Yeah, people are gonna troll people for doing anything, especially when they care, because when people care it's easier to manipulate them with anger about it.

Hitting him would only make him win. :/

Funny thing actually, one group at the school half my D&D group goes to decided they'd just not talk to straight people at all for DoS, but they eventually realized they couldn't do that anyway because they had to go shopping for some major purchases today and today only.

At which point I pointed out to the member of said group that was gaming with us that in that case she wouldn't have been able to talk to anyone else in the D&D game today and how fun that would be, considering she had earlier told everyone that today was completely clear for her to run.

[Nix Nihila]

So, explain, who exactly is being harmed and how such that having gendered restrooms is nothing but oppression and immoral, please.

Um. Well, no matter which bathroom us transfolk go into, we're often harassed if we aren't totally passable. Although I can't say that I think have unisex bathrooms everywhere would totally remedy the situation, I think it would help.

[Coidzor]

Um. Well, no matter which bathroom us transfolk go into, we're often harassed if we aren't totally passable. Although I can't say that I think have unisex bathrooms everywhere would totally remedy the situation, I think it would help.

And that is intrinsic to segregated bathrooms as opposed to general transphobia how?