LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

[Nix Nihila]

Because people assume that we should be in the other bathroom since we "aren't actually" our preferred gender.

[Coidzor]

Because people assume that we should be in the other bathroom since we "aren't actually" our preferred gender.

Not seeing how that's not covered by my last post.

[Nix Nihila]

Transpeople have been arrested because they were perceived as being in the wrong bathroom. A unisex bathroom would fix that, although it wouldn't fix the general discrimination against transpeople.

[unosarta]

Yeah, people are gonna troll people for doing anything, especially when they care, because when people care it's easier to manipulate them with anger about it.

Hitting him would only make him win. :/

Yeah, but that didn't make me any less angry about it. And when I wrote on the notebook we were writing in "DUDE, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?!" he actually said "I am sorry, I am illiterate, and cannot read." And he wasn't joking or trying to be funny.

Which is precisely why I did not hit him.

Funny thing actually, one group at the school half my D&D group goes to decided they'd just not talk to straight people at all for DoS, but they eventually realized they couldn't do that anyway because they had to go shopping for some major purchases today and today only.

At which point I pointed out to the member of said group that was gaming with us that in that case she wouldn't have been able to talk to anyone else in the D&D game today and how fun that would be, considering she had earlier told everyone that today was completely clear for her to run.

Not talking to straight people seems... kind of beside the point. Like, what does that do, create another arbitrary "us" and "them" situation? Is that really helping in any way? Also, part of the point is to be able to understand what it is like for someone who is closeted and cannot speak out because of any retaliation they fear, and how hard it is to not talk; just talking to LGBT people isn't going to help you understand that AT ALL.

I went to a LGBT lobby-day thing-y on Thursday. It was absolutely fantastic. I met some really cool people, and I got to hear about an anti-bullying coalition between 6 or 7 school groups, including LGBT groups as well as anti-racism and disability awareness groups, as well as one person affiliated with a national women's rights organization. It was really, really cool to hear what was going on in my state to stop bullying, and I actually knew quite a few people that were representing the coalition. And then I had DoS, and was just at the TYSN (transgender youth support network) Night of Noise, which essentially amounted to a bunch of twenty-somethings hanging out, grilling food, and sitting awkwardly. I brought some friends, since I thought it was going to be sort of youth oriented, and there was pretty much no one else there. I kind of wanted to stay, but my friends were like "WE MUST LEAVE, TOO AWKWARD." All in all a pretty awesome week.

[cycoris]

@^ *applauds*

Thanks.

So, explain, who exactly is being harmed and how such that having gendered restrooms is nothing but oppression and immoral, please.

I think that as a general policy, you shouldn't segregate people unless there is a reason to, and the burden of proof should lie on the people wanting to do the segregating.

Focussing on restrooms. Not everyone is a woman or man as accepted by society. And not everyone WANTS to be a woman or man as accepted by society. By splitting people into men and women and nothing else/in between, you're ensuring that there are people who cannot comfortably or safely use a public restroom, which is oppressive and stupid.

There should be no reason why I have to wait in line for the women's restroom, especially when I'm with a small child who really needs to pee RIGHT NOW, when there are empty stalls in the men's restroom, which is also really stupid.

I just don't see the point, and it's incredibly othering and inefficient.

[Serpentine]

Funny. Last time this came up, I was the only one arguing in favour of unisex bathrooms
Personally, I don't really care either way. I don't like poopin' when someone else is in there, and that's about the extent of my interest in who shares a bathroom with me

What?! How in the world is it more "hygienic" for a receptionist to have shaved legs? Who was looking at her legs to decide anyway?! Ooh, weren't they worried about her arm hair? Her eyebrows? I would completely flip if someone told me I was required to shave my legs for my job. ... I think I'll run into trouble with my refusals to wear make up and high heels with an irrational company policy like that before they get to my legs, though, especially since I always wear tights with skirts! (I don't find it uncomfortable, but, like I said, I have very fine hair and I've never known different, so I can understand if you were used to it and/or had more stubborn hair, it could be.)

Yeeeeaaaaah. I dunno. I suspect the armpit hair wasn't a problem because she wore sleeves.

I heard an interesting tidbit on the news yesterday. Apparently in Pakistan, transexuals are so looked down upon that the government is using them to collect taxes - they turn up at the victim's home or business, and tell them to pay up or else they'll come back later with all their fellow transexual friends. And no one wants that, do they?
Is this awesome, or terrible? I can't decide.

[golentan]

Well, I don't see the point of unisex bathrooms per se, I just also don't see the point of segregated ones.

[celtois]

Segregation is probably encouraged in bathrooms so they aren't used for purposes other then their intended one, more then they already are. After all a unisex bathroom will quite frankly, probably have more people making out and having sex in it then the existing segregated bathroom system.

(Primarily because a large majority of the world is straight. )

[Mystic Muse]

Segregation is probably encouraged in bathrooms so they aren't used for purposes other then their intended one, more then they already are. After all a unisex bathroom will quite frankly, probably have more people making out and having sex in it then the existing segregated bathroom system.

I don't really think "It can be misused" is much of a defense for segregating them though. That applies to a lot of stuff which I won't get into.

[golentan]

I don't really think "It can be misused" is much of a defense for segregating them though. That applies to a lot of stuff which I won't get into.

Like sporks.

[Serpentine]

And jelly moulds.

[rayne_dragon]

Funny. Last time this came up, I was the only one arguing in favour of unisex bathrooms

I must have not been actively around at the time or I would have been in agreement with you. Unisex bathrooms are all kinds of useful compared with seggregated bathrooms.

I heard an interesting tidbit on the news yesterday. Apparently in Pakistan, transexuals are so looked down upon that the government is using them to collect taxes - they turn up at the victim's home or business, and tell them to pay up or else they'll come back later with all their fellow transexual friends. And no one wants that, do they?
Is this awesome, or terrible? I can't decide.

I think it might just be both. It is kind of hilarious to read about it from my room, but at the same time, I feel really bad when anyone is treated like a pariah. At least I'd probably never have to pay taxes there.

EDIT:

Segregation is probably encouraged in bathrooms so they aren't used for purposes other then their intended one, more then they already are. After all a unisex bathroom will quite frankly, probably have more people making out and having sex in it then the existing segregated bathroom system.

I'm not sure that the sense of forbiddence doesn't just add to the temptation, though. I'm not even sure that the current segregation stops any bathroom hanky-panky at all. If people are determined to do something they'll do it regardless of what measures are there to stop them.

[golentan]

Oooh yes. The things I've seen with those cannot be unseen.

[Mystic Muse]

Like sporks.

....I don't want to know do I?

Luckily, I'm not going to find out for at least another 6 and a half hours. Why do I always stay up the night I have D&D the next morning?

Good night everybody/pony/Whatever you may be.

[cycoris]

Segregation is probably encouraged in bathrooms so they aren't used for purposes other then their intended one, more then they already are. After all a unisex bathroom will quite frankly, probably have more people making out and having sex in it then the existing segregated bathroom system.

...I don't see the problem here.

Maybe we should determine who uses what bathroom by how long they take, and then organise things for maximum efficiency.

[celtois]

Personally I don't fine the segregation that objectionable, if it helps cut down the amount of sex you might walk into in wash-rooms it is a-okay with me.

I can see how that isn't the best argument in the world, but it does matter. Additionally a second reason for segregation of men and women's wash-rooms is to help prevent children from seeing too much of the opposite gender without clothing. Another initiative I am not really against.

Walking into a washroom with a row of urinals as a kid could be a pretty traumatizing experience >.>... Add to that, that since there are urinals it isn't a completely artificial divide as men can go differently. It also means women don't have to walk into a room full of men holding their peni (plural yo!)


(Keeping in mind that I'm socially pretty old fashion in some regards. A bit of a traditionalist.)

As for the efficiency thing. Judging from how long it takes to get into the women's bathroom and the short lines for the men's I'd say it must already be organized that way.

[rayne_dragon]

...I don't see the problem here.

Maybe we should determine who uses what bathroom by how long they take, and then organise things for maximum efficiency.

Astrology solves everything. Bathrooms should be divided by zodiac sign.

[unosarta]

Astrology solves everything. Bathrooms should be divided by zodiac sign.

At the above mentioned thing-y I went to on Thursday, we signed in with our Zodiac sign. I was one of two gemini.

[celtois]

Astrology solves everything. Bathrooms should be divided by zodiac sign.

As a Gemini I need a stall with two toilets for me and my twin.

(Looks like you will need ones of those stalls as well uno)

[rayne_dragon]

As a Gemini I need a stall with two toilets for me and my twin.

(Looks like you will need ones of those stalls as well uno)

As a Cancer mine needs to be insulated by 1' of soundproofed lead from all other stalls.

... I'm not sure we all want to hear what a Scorpio's bathroom must include.

[unosarta]

As a Gemini I need a stall with two toilets for me and my twin.

(Looks like you will need ones of those stalls as well uno)

The best part about that was that the other gemini is someone I know from school, and who is pretty awesome. So we just ended up being like "gemini power, yo".

As a Cancer mine needs to be insulated by 1' of soundproofed lead from all other stalls.

... I'm not sure we all want to hear what a Scorpio's bathroom must include.

Oh jeez. That could get bad. I mean, the Sagitariuses would be trying to shoot the Leos, the Pisces are swimming in the toilets, the Libras are... I don't even know what they are doing.

[rayne_dragon]

Oh jeez. That could get bad. I mean, the Sagitariuses would be trying to shoot the Leos, the Pisces are swimming in the toilets, the Libras are... I don't even know what they are doing.

... Balancing?

[RS14]

Personally I don't fine the segregation that objectionable, if it helps cut down the amount of sex you might walk into in wash-rooms it is a-okay with me.

I can see how that isn't the best argument in the world, but it does matter. Additionally a second reason for segregation of men and women's wash-rooms is to help prevent children from seeing too much of the opposite gender without clothing. Another initiative I am not really against.

Walking into a washroom with a row of urinals as a kid could be a pretty traumatizing experience >.>... Add to that, that since there are urinals it isn't a completely artificial divide as men can go differently. It also means women don't have to walk into a room full of men holding their peni (plural yo!)


(Keeping in mind that I'm socially pretty old fashion in some regards. A bit of a traditionalist.)

As for the efficiency thing. Judging from how long it takes to get into the women's bathroom and the short lines for the men's I'd say it must already be organized that way.

If there are segregated restrooms, should cisgendered individuals be prohibited from using the restrooms of the other gender, or is it merely a suggestions? The difference does matter quite a bit to transgender or genderqueer individuals.

My other remark is to wonder if it really makes any difference in sexual behavior, as you suggest. Any restroom used for sexual activity is obviously in a poorly monitored area. In airports, for instance, employees work at various desks throughout the terminal, but no airport (as opposed to airline) employees are likely to be around to deal with restroom miscreants. The taboo against casual sex in stalls is likely to be much greater than the taboo against entering the restroom of the other gender. Thus we may reason that at present, sex in restrooms is primarily cultural: that is, it is restrained by low desire to engage in such behavior, rather than by segregation, and thus unisex bathrooms are unlikely to cause any increase in such acts.

Wikipedia seems to suggest that it's primarily a gay male phenomenon. Is this true? Similar numbers of lesbians having sex in restrooms would refute my thesis...

[celtois]

Logical points. Pah.


I can't speak to many of the points. However the act of putting people of of opposite genders in the same wash-room will make a lot of people uncomfortable. You already have to take your bottoms off in a room full of strangers, add in people who may be leering at you and it gets kinda creepy.

As for cisgendered people. I'm inclined to place them in the rest-room of their choice. But I'm generally fairly chill about that sort of stuff.

As far as I know it is fairly common across all sexual orientations, however I have no evidence to back it up. I've never made a point of researching it.

Perhaps you are right on the whole element of taboos, I still think the casual sex in washrooms is likely to increase after all it is removing one of the taboos

[Savannah]

Wikipedia seems to suggest that it's primarily a gay male phenomenon. Is this true? Similar numbers of lesbians having sex in restrooms would refute my thesis...

Anecdotally, I've mostly heard of heterosexual couples being caught having sex in bathrooms, which kinda indicates that having segregated bathrooms people doesn't do anything to stop people. However, I have absolutely no data to back that up (but I'd imagine that Wikipedia doesn't either).

[Ashen Lilies]

The best part about that was that the other gemini is someone I know from school, and who is pretty awesome. So we just ended up being like "gemini power, yo".



Oh jeez. That could get bad. I mean, the Sagitariuses would be trying to shoot the Leos, the Pisces are swimming in the toilets, the Libras are... I don't even know what they are doing.

Your loss.

[Beelzebub1111]

Oh jeez. That could get bad. I mean, the Sagitariuses would be trying to shoot the Leos, the Pisces are swimming in the toilets, the Libras are... I don't even know what they are doing.

They're judging Aries and Taurus by their weight.

[Murdim]

If there are segregated restrooms, should cisgendered individuals be prohibited from using the restrooms of the other gender, or is it merely a suggestions? The difference does matter quite a bit to transgender or genderqueer individuals.

This. More than ninety hundred times this. The gender-segregated nature of restrooms being seen as a "must" rather than a "should" is the true root of the problem. Actually, gender essentialism as a whole is the true root of transphobia as a whole. I think that Cycoris' message explains quite nicely how stupid and damaging gender segregation can be.

As for cisgendered people. I'm inclined to place them in the rest-room of their choice. But I'm generally fairly chill about that sort of stuff.

Except that, y'know, this doesn't happen that way. The previous time this topic came up, it was clearly shown that many people place their own social comfort over other's basic needs, and are completely fine with enforcing a convention based on convenience over the fundamental rights of the unfortunate who are left over by said convention.

Do not ever assume that people are as open-minded as yourself.

[Skeppio]

I don't see any problem with unisex bathrooms. As long as everyone just does their business and doesn't horse around and mess up the place, no skin off my nose.

[KenderWizard]

I am pro unisex bathrooms, and pro not dividing by gender when it comes to rooming together on field trips or whatever. I think the only problem time for that is in the experimental teen stage, but there's such a thing as walking out of the girl's room and into the boy's room. If they want to mess around, they will. No reason to divide kids or adults. There should be space for people to change privately _anyway_. I wouldn't be any more comfortable having to take off my clothes in front of girls than boys. In fact, boys are more likely to think of me as a potential sexual partner, but girls are more likely to judge my body shape/skin/whatever.

Anyway, on the subject of bathrooms: I think a lot of people think unisex bathrooms are icky, but I think this is partly because places that only have one bathroom also don't maintain it very well. In my experience, anyway, that's the case, except for little cafes and restaurants often have nice ones. But I think if it became the norm to have well maintained bathrooms, with maybe urinals around a corner, people would just get used to it. Also, it'd be really handy for parents with little kids of the opposite gender. It's fine taking a male baby into the female bathrooms, but what about a dad out with his 5-year-old little girl? The child becomes definitely gendered well before being old enough to comfortably go to the public bathrooms by themselves.

My concern would be the fact that even with segregated bathrooms it's a place where particularly women are targeted for sexual assault. I'd be worried about it being easier for the attackers, in the particular case of a man attacking a woman.