LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

[Kneenibble]

For my own erosophical curiosity, Miscastium, why do you prefer such older men?

[Lyesmith]

Ah, the whole bear/twink debacle.

It's really rather a fascinating topic. Does anyone know any papers or the like on it? I mean, it's a significant enough part of pop-culture that freinds who believe they posess insight into such matters have attempted to classify me.

"You'll have to act like more of an uke if you want to attract a bearish guy, Lyes!" - I trollface'd.

[Coidzor]

"You'll have to act like more of an uke if you want to attract a bearish guy, Lyes!" - I trollface'd.

That's... pretty horrible.

[Lyesmith]

That's... pretty horrible.

I know! I was genuinely shocked speechless for a good couple of seconds.

[Frozen_Feet]

I haven't seen any papers on the specific subject, but here's few bits of extrapolation based on tangentially related subjects:

About the Uke/Seme relationship: in some parts of the world, esp. Japan, gender roles are deeply ingrained in society - so deeply that they transcend physical sex. Being attracted to your own gender is not the actual crime - breaking gender roles, and thus form of tradition, is.

Because of this, in popular culture even same-sex couples are forced to obey gender roles. To fulfil aesthetics of tradition, one party must assume the feminine, and other the masculine role. Ukes are really girls in disguise, as I've heard someone say.

About attraction to different types of men: based on a theory I've read, I believe sexuality and behaviour is a spectrum based on how feminine or masculine some parts of the brain are. An effeminate straight guy, for example, has feminine behavioural protocol but masculine couple-forming protocol. A bear gay man has masculine behavioral protocol but feminine couple-forming protocol. A twink is somewhere between or to the side of them - both effeminate in behaviour and desire for partner.

On average, I believe gay men are suspect to desire manly men, just like straight women desire manly men. However, straight women tend to favor effeminate men for long-term relationships, as they're percieved as more faithful. Culture is also a big factor - for example, currently in Japan ideal for male appearance is androgynous and thin.

So I suspect the bear / twink division is based on variant of the same phenomenom. On one hand, gay men want manly men, so many gays are drawn to appearing macho (bears). On the other, some gays are naturally effeminate while culture encourages them to fit a certain mold (twinks). How's that for a theory?

[Coidzor]

About the Uke/Seme relationship: in some parts of the world, esp. Japan, gender roles are deeply ingrained in society - so deeply that they transcend physical sex. Being attracted to your own gender is not the actual crime - breaking gender roles, and thus form of tradition, is.

Because of this, in popular culture even same-sex couples are forced to obey gender roles. To fulfil aesthetics of tradition, one party must assume the feminine, and other the masculine role. Ukes are really girls in disguise, as I've heard someone say.

Mostly it's what's usually done to the Uke by convention in the stories about them, since there's only a certain subset of the population in a western society that would use that term. And so they'd be speaking from a perspective colored by those stories.

As for your theory... Certainly I could accept it as a contributing factor, I can't really ignore the examples of peer pressure and societal expectations that I've encountered so far.

[SMEE]

To all those who sent anonymous email during the last few days, know that I will post them tomorrow night.

[Jacklu]

Thank you Smee. I was coming here to check that you hadn't already and say the same thing. Actually, I might post one or two tonight.

Okay, the first two have some content that might not be board appropriate so I will leave it to the lovely Smee to decide on them, but I will post these two for now:

So this is more a Relationship Woes and Advice but seeing as they don't have
an anonymous mailer I'm posting it via Smeenet.

So I'm recently in a relationship, my first ever, and I'm deeply afraid that
I don't actually have feelings for him. And that I'm only pretending to. I
care that he is happy but he doesn't makes me happy besides being someone
for me to make happy. And I find myself hoping more and more that he will
dump me. So that I'm no longer in a relationship, but that I haven't had to
hurt him myself.
The relationship is also already physical. And I get less enjoyment out of
it than that I get just with myself. So I'm starting to think I'm most
likely asexual, because he's gorgeous. And if he doesn't do anything for me,
I doubt anyone will.
So now I'm wondering if I just don't have any real feelings. And only have
pretended to have them so far. But that pretending the feeling on is
suppose to have in a relationship is just too much for me. I might be a
sociopath, but one that only cares about others, because to me nothing
matters.

These are just my thoughts written out, which is why they are so random and
redundant . I also don't know if one can give me advice with this.

(Anonymous because there are people on this forum who know my username)

A close friend came out to me a few days ago. I'm only the second person
who knows, the first being one of his siblings. I've always supported LGBT
rights and I shouldn't be so suprised anyways because he was dropping hints
over the last year, but I'm thrown off a lot more than I thought I would
be... Any advice on being supportive for him?

Half-jokingly, is there a tactful way to ask and make sure this wasn't an
extremely tasteless April Fool's joke? I hadn't even thought of the date
until I got home that day :P

I apologize to those that sent emails and might have felt ignored. I have been very busy and have been neglecting the Giant forums. _(_ _)_ My sincerest apologies.

[Coidzor]

Anonymous Person 1:

Spoiler

Show

So I'm recently in a relationship, my first ever, and I'm deeply afraid that I don't actually have feelings for him. And that I'm only pretending to. I care that he is happy but he doesn't makes me happy besides being someone for me to make happy. And I find myself hoping more and more that he will dump me. So that I'm no longer in a relationship, but that I haven't had to hurt him myself.

Ok, at that point, you need to just break things off, because if he finds out this has been how you've felt it's just going to hurt him more in the long run when it comes out after keeping up a charade for months or even a year. And you're doing yourself no favors either in being too afraid of learning how to end a relationship while minimizing damage to yourself and your now-former partner.

It's a life skill you have to learn sooner or later if you're going to date.

The relationship is also already physical. And I get less enjoyment out of it than that I get just with myself. So I'm starting to think I'm most likely asexual, because he's gorgeous. And if he doesn't do anything for me, I doubt anyone will.

Alright, first of all, that's a flawed line of reasoning you're working from, whether he's beautiful does not necessarily mean that you're asexual for not enjoying him in particular sexually. Also, such things are generally more enjoyable with ourselves than with others because of the whole nervous system thing.

So now I'm wondering if I just don't have any real feelings. And only have pretended to have them so far. But that pretending the feeling on is suppose to have in a relationship is just too much for me. I might be a sociopath, but one that only cares about others, because to me nothing matters.

Ok, you're probably not a sociopath if you're worrying about it this much. Plus, y'know, you're probably not a sociopath. Wondering if you actually had any real feelings to begin with is pretty much par for the course for when you're thinking about ending your first ever relationship regardless of your sex or sexuality.

edit: Most of all though, don't panic, and remember nothing you do here is gonna be the end of the world.

Anonymous Person 2:

Spoiler

Show

Well, the real question is, would your friend continue to troll you after April Fool's day was long over?

If he would, maybe you should reconsider the friendship if he's willing to troll you in this manner. I would assume that he merely had no tact or was trying to cop out and get out of the wrong people taking him seriously while expecting everyone else to take him seriously at the same time.

You can just ask him about how his family took him coming out of the closet as a relatively safe topic and you'll know he's playing it seriously, which just leaves the question of long-term trolling... Which seems far-fetched to say the least.

[golentan]

Anonymous 1: Recommendation 1) End it. If you don't want actively to be in a relationship, only bad things will come of remaining in it. Breaking up with someone doesn't make you a bad person. And neither does not enjoying sex, or not feeling the way you are "supposed to." If anything, you seem to be approaching it backwards (you are "supposed to" get involved in such things because you have the feelings, not have the feelings because you are "supposed to" while involved) and even then note my use of air quotes.

Also, having spent much time with sociopaths stop calling yourself that. It's not cool.

Anonymous 2: I advocate asking "hey, was that an april fools joke?" And offering support as needs arise as a friend rather than going "OMG must provide logistical aid now that you're gay!" Unless that's the sort of thing you'd do anyway for any such situation or revelation into his character.

I am as sharp as a hammer when it comes to social bluntness, so you may wish to take that with a grain of salt.

[Miscast_Mage]

For my own erosophical curiosity, Miscastium, why do you prefer such older men?

I'm not quite sure more than anyone else thinking about their own preferences, though it's actually quite interesting to look at one's tastes and preferences and wonder why they're the way they are. It's almost cleansing, in a way, to think about the reasons and what fors. If I had to guess at the sub-concious reasons, I suppose it would be because I see middle aged men as an ideal, of sorts. I'm still afraid of much of the "grown-up" world(hooray for social anxieties), and I think of men who have dealt with these problems and have gotten past them as something I should strive to be. I think the rest just kind of fits itself to the typical(well, romanticised/fantasised/whatever to some degree) middle-aged man.

I also resent most of the people my age as most of them I know or have to deal with are mind-killing idiots(yes, this may be true regardless of age, but this is just what I've come across in my experience). I think that I'm holding a false ideal of the maturity and such of older men, but still, I want to at least try and verify that one way or another before I make a judgement on it.

Hmm, I remember having this better laid out in my head, but I think that's everything important.

Anonymous 1:
I agree with Golentan. It sounds like an unhappy relationship, and I think the guy you're seeing deserves to know that you're unhappy about it. Don't feel ashamed about not enjoying the sex, it just means that he's not the right person for you, and that's okay. Having recently come out of a similar relationship myself, I think you should be active about this; don't just wait and hope he dumps you. Chances are, it'll just end up more painful for both of you. It might hurt him and possibly you as well to break it off in one motion, but it's ultimately for the best.

Anonymous 2:
I think you should just directly ask him. Yes, it's as blunt as a sledgehsmmer to the face. He might be offended at first if he was serious, but I think that if you explain your doubts to him in a calm, friendly manner, he'll understand and you'll both feel better having cleared up the confusion. If you don't want to just dive into the topic directly, maybe try asking him what type of guys he likes or some such question, and jokingly put out the fact that you're not 100% sure about his orientation.

Note that I'm probably not the best person in the world to get advice from, so I'd recommend a second opinion or three to balance this against and contemplate what the best course of action is for yourselves.

[Frozen_Feet]

Miscast_Mage, some food for thought concerning your preferences:

How old is your dad? It's been proven that straight women are attracted to men who resemble their fathers to some extent, so maybe part of the same phenomenom is in play here? For example, women whose fathers were old when they got them often like older men.

[Miscast_Mage]

Miscast_Mage, some food for thought concerning your preferences:

How old is your dad? It's been proven that straight women are attracted to men who resemble their fathers to some extent, so maybe part of the same phenomenom is in play here? For example, women whose fathers were old when they got them often like older men.

He's in his mid forties. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's the case. Although, my mam was in an accident when I was little(about 8 or so? I'm kind of fuzzy on the exact age), and my dad does most of the looking-after and such around the house now, so that could have some influence. Then again, getting into freudian pyschology and reasoning is all good fun, but you have to keep in mind that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And personally, the thought of my dad related to even-slightly-naughtiness is a squick factor, so I'm not sure how that factors into the reasoning of my daddybear-hunting.

[cycoris]

Anon 1:

Not to sound like a broken record here, but you should at the very least talk to this guy. You should really at least let him know about your feelings/lack of feelings, because it's probably not going to make either of you happy in the long term if you keep stringing him along.

On possibly being asexual, I'm not sure if you should be so quick to label yourself that way just because you don't find one "gorgeous" guy attractive. Just because society labels someone as conventionally "pretty" or "handsome" doesn't mean that all or even most people find them attractive. It may be that he's not the kind of person you find attractive. And even if you would find him attractive otherwise, the fact that he's not doing much for you emotionally (I may be jumping to conclusions here, but that seems to be the case from what you described in your letter) might be making him less attractive to you. I'm not saying you're not asexual, but that you probably shouldn't jump to too many conclusions if it's just based on this one case.

Anon 2:

I'd advise asking this friend of yours straight out if he was coming out as a joke. I don't know what they came out to you as (L, G, B, T, or some combination of the above), but if it's somewhere in the T* spectrum asking about pronouns might be appreciated. Otherwise, just be generally nice/considerate/friend-ish/whatever.

Oh, and you might want to double check to see who they're out to and how closeted they want to stay, and please please PLEASE respect it if they want you to not out them to their family/colleagues/whatnot.

[Frozen_Feet]

Then again, getting into freudian pyschology and reasoning is all good fun, but you have to keep in mind that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And personally, the thought of my dad related to even-slightly-naughtiness is a squick factor, so I'm not sure how that factors into the reasoning of my daddybear-hunting.

That's because Freud was wrong, and Westermarck was right. XD Children below a certain age imprint with their close ones as "family", and to avoid biological pratfalls they never consider family members in a sexual manner afterwards.

However, while no-one healthy lusts after their parents, they still look after partners that resemble their parents, unless they had very bad experiences with their parents in which case they tend to avoid reminescent qualities.

Think of it this way: if attraction is even partly genetic, it makes a degree of sense that if a mother is attracted to hunky men, so is her daughter. The father being a hunky man is... related, but tangential issue. XD

On nurture side of things, if you had good relations with your parents, you're likely to associate qualities of your parents with good relations. It might be largely sub-conscious, but it's there. If your father was a kindly, loving person, you're more likely to consider someone who looks like your dad a kindly, loving person as well.

[Serpentine]

The explanation I've heard goes like this: the fact that you exist means that your father/mother was a successful breeder. You want a mate who is also a successful breeder, and you have on hand a figure who is established as such, therefore they act as a model for what you look for in a mate of your own.

[Drfaust]

That's because Freud was wrong, and Westermarck was right. XD Children below a certain age imprint with their close ones as "family", and to avoid biological pratfalls they never consider family members in a sexual manner afterwards.

However, while no-one healthy lusts after their parents, they still look after partners that resemble their parents, unless they had very bad experiences with their parents in which case they tend to avoid reminescent qualities.

Think of it this way: if attraction is even partly genetic, it makes a degree of sense that if a mother is attracted to hunky men, so is her daughter. The father being a hunky man is... related, but tangential issue. XD

On nurture side of things, if you had good relations with your parents, you're likely to associate qualities of your parents with good relations. It might be largely sub-conscious, but it's there. If your father was a kindly, loving person, you're more likely to consider someone who looks like your dad a kindly, loving person as well.

Oh Freud! He had oddly tilted opinions about a lot of things. It all got down go his screwed up belief that all woman inherently want male genitals. His castration complex theories make me laugh. It's only logical that humans would seek partners they feel safe with and generally romantic partners are sexually active. I would argue a portion of sexual attraction is simply a feeling of security. Correlation is not neccesarily causation. It seems the attraction is in a lot of ways also more directed to maternal or patronal figures as opposed to genetic relations.

[Asta Kask]

On Pansexuality vs Bisexuality

First of all, I feel that gender and sexuality are (or at least should be) self-determined. For all that it is any of our business, someone can start calling theirself a quattrosexual and none of us have any right to tell them they can't be one. We can helpfully point out that we don't know what such a term means, ask them to explain it or why they chose it, and suggest that it might be easier to find a partner if they identify as a more commonly known sexuality; but we should not tell them that there is no such thing as a quattrosexual and that they can't be one. I realize that this puts a crimp in our scientific urges to classify people in a neat, easily understood way, but there are things on which human rights issues trump scientific reasoning.

Yes and no. They have a right to call themselves whatever they want. They do not have a right to be called whatever they want. We may deem certain words unacceptable to use altogether, as in hate speech laws, but bisexual is not likely to be in that category soon. And, yes, they do of course have a right to refuse to associate with me if I refuse to call them pansexual.

Latin "cis-" means "on the same side as" and trans- means "on the opposite side as". The difference between ancient Cisalpine Gaul and Transalpine Gaul was on which side (from the Romans' perspective) of the Alps they were on.

[Kajhera]

So, since I'm attracted to both females and males in terms of the body they wear, and not so much attracted to masculine or feminine personality traits, is there a particular subgroup for me?

[Coidzor]

So, since I'm attracted to both females and males in terms of the body they wear, and not so much attracted to masculine or feminine personality traits, is there a particular subgroup for me?

No, and I shudder at the quagmire of language that would produce a situation where that was linguistically necessary.

And personally, the thought of my dad related to even-slightly-naughtiness is a squick factor, so I'm not sure how that factors into the reasoning of my daddybear-hunting.

Hmm, maybe you'll want to avoid using that kind of language then.

[Miscast_Mage]

Hmm, maybe you'll want to avoid using that kind of language then.

Nope, I purposely chose to use that phrase. Plus, the only other term I could think of to represent an older partner was along the lines of Sire or Lord. Yeek. Curse you, society's implicit indication of age equaling superiority!

So, since I'm attracted to both females and males in terms of the body they wear, and not so much attracted to masculine or feminine personality traits, is there a particular subgroup for me?

I think the problem with that line of thinking is where do you stop? Do you have to come for different terms for people who like FtMs/MtFs specifically? Or gender queer people? Or men and women, but men only above a certain age if they're blond on Wednesday to Saturday? It soon just collapses into madness. I say; spoosh labels, and just be happy with you as you. That's what's important.

[Coidzor]

Nope, I purposely chose to use that phrase. Plus, the only other term I could think of to represent an older partner was along the lines of Sire or Lord. Yeek. Curse you, society's implicit indication of age equaling superiority!

Because you totally need to encapsulate all of life into single word umbrella words rather than say what you mean simply. Mostly though it's just correlating age with money and status and then money and status being the actual rubric society uses to gauge relative superiority, as far as I could ever tell anyway.

[Blisstake]

Nope, I purposely chose to use that phrase. Plus, the only other term I could think of to represent an older partner was along the lines of Sire or Lord. Yeek. Curse you, society's implicit indication of age equaling superiority!

Although "Master" is usually reserved for a young male...

[Murdim]

There's something that always bugs me with those "why people like who/what they like" conversations. Most people have a set of preferences, that is much more complex and varied than just one preferred type to rule them all and by which everything is measured.

This is also why I find the twink, bear, ect... labels to be so reductive. Even within a group of people attracted to supposedly the same "type", you will find a variety of differents outlooks : why is one attracted to that type to begin with, how does this attraction feel, where does the boundaries of the type begin and end, what is the most attractive part, what is "too much of a good thing", and so on.

So, since I'm attracted to both females and males in terms of the body they wear, and not so much attracted to stereotypical masculine or feminine personality traits, is there a particular subgroup for me?

I permitted myself to make a tiny modification in the wording of your message. The answer is so much more obvious that way, don't you think ?

Alternatively, there is a particular subgroup for you, and it is called "Kajhera".

[Kajhera]

There's something that always bugs me with those "why people like who/what they like" conversations. Most people have a set of preferences, that is much more complex and varied than just one preferred type to rule them all and by which everything is measured.

This is also why I find the twink, bear, ect... labels to be so reductive. Even within a group of people attracted to supposedly the same "type", you will find a variety of differents outlooks : why is one attracted to that type to begin with, how does this attraction feel, where does the boundaries of the type begin and end, what is the most attractive part, what is "too much of a good thing", and so on.


I permitted myself to make a tiny modification in the wording of your message. The answer is so much more obvious that way, don't you think ?

Alternatively, there is a particular subgroup for you, and it is called "Kajhera".

Well... yes, I don't see how traits like masculine and feminine could be much other than stereotypical, given their definition. xD The question was a bit tongue in cheek; there's obviously not going to be a subgroup for my exact personal preferences, exactly as they change with the phases of the moon. (Which they do for some reason.)

Aside from, as you mention, myself.

[Coidzor]

Well... yes, I don't see how traits like masculine and feminine could be much other than stereotypical, given their definition. xD The question was a bit tongue in cheek; there's obviously not going to be a subgroup for my exact personal preferences, exactly as they change with the phases of the moon. (Which they do for some reason.)

Aside from, as you mention, myself.

Well, maybe someday when the soft sciences are out of their infancy we might figure out some things definitively about human nature, but, yeah.

[Glass Mouse]

Hi. I usuallyhang out in the RW&A thread, but I thought I'd drop by here and pretend to have something interesting to say

That's all well written, but to continue my questioning:Does that mean that a man who is willing to date both cis- and transexual women and anyone else along those lines who meets his own definition of "female" is meaningfully different, and therefore requiring a new sexuality category, to a man who is only interested in ciswomen?
If we're gonna divide up pansexuals and bisexuals on that basis, then surely we ought to divide up the other sexualities on that same basis.

I have trouble seeing why we "ought to". If the need isn't big enough, the word doesn't enter our language. Simple as that, IMO.

It seems logical to me that LGBT+ people put a lot more thought and consideration into their sexuality, simply because they aren't mainstream. Being LGBT+ entails stopping up and going "wait a minute, I'm different in X way, what does that mean?" while heterosexuals can theoretically cruise through life without ever giving it a second thought.
This might explain why there are more labels and differentiations in LGBT+ discourse.

Don't let yourself get abused or taken advantage of. What's more to be said when tangling with an older, more established lover from a weaker position? You've had to have already encountered negative feedback judging either of you already, so it doesn't really bear repeating.

This. SO MUCH THIS.

Fortunately, most people of all ages are perfectly nice and wouldn't ever try to hurt you (most will anyway - humans are flawed like that), but someone twice your age has a lot of experience on you. If they're the abusive/manipulative type, they'll know a lot more tricks than you do, and they'll know how to use them.
Just keep an eye out.

I'm sorry if I seem doomerish, but I've seen this happen with a close friend, at an age where I was too naive and stupid to do something about it. I just don't wanna see it happen to you or anyone else.

[Miscast_Mage]

Don't mean to interupt the current topic, but I came across this from Penny-arcade and I just... what is this I don't even ackpthgzl This is the kind of mind-set that make's me want to stab people's eyes out with shards of fire! GAH!! I'm also a little ಠ_ಠ at the "fire David Gaider for writing a gay character that wants sex" thing, but as I haven't played the game yet, I really can't make an honest judgement about that either way. Gah. Dear humanity. Stop making yourself look like a plague upon existance itself. There is only so much I can possibly hate you I am this close to setting random people in the street on fire!

Edit: You lovable ninja, Glass Mouse. Thanks, now I feel a little less like going on a mindless, rampant destruction now. A little.

[Coidzor]

This is the kind of mind-set that make's me want to stab people's eyes out with shards of fire!

That grinds your gears that much? That's downright tame compared to what I'm used to encountering.

[unosarta]

That grinds your gears that much? That's downright tame compared to what I'm used to encountering.

....

Are you for real? I am so glad I live where I do...
[Edit]: To elucidate; I haven't seen something like that that wasn't on the internet in... a long time. I never hear sh-- stuff like that IRL.