When you play the Game of Thrones...

[Weezer]

Don't forget that the Targaryen heir, Rhaeger, ran off with Ned's sister/Robert's fiance'

End of Game of Thrones/later book spoilers:

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And there is a lot of ambiguity as to whether or not Lyanna did it voluntary or not. Each side says opposite things and in the book there is really no such thing as a reliable narrator.

[Grey_Wolf_c]



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And there is a lot of ambiguity as to whether or not Lyanna did it voluntary or not. Each side says opposite things and in the book there is really no such thing as a reliable narrator.

And this is definitely a spoiler for those people in this thread that have not read the books. Come on, guys, be careful with this. This is one series of books you don't want to spoil for newcomers. At least have the decency of spoilering.

Grey Wolf

[Weezer]

Sorry about that, should've been more considerate.

[Da'Shain]

I liked this episode a lot more than the third, although I'm not entirely certain as to why -- perhaps the added scenes this time around just felt more natural.

Ser Alliser's speech to Jon and Sam was great, in my eyes. In the books, he's one of the few characters whose motivation I never really got a sense for (aside from "be a complete prick to everyone to make myself feel better"). His speech here, though, makes it clear that he's a sadist to the recruits because he really thinks he has to be, or else he and his brothers are going to be let down by sub-par Night's Watchmen. Just that one little speech made me like the character and hope to see more of him, even despite his unabashed hostility.

I was also a big fan of

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Jaime having a relatively friendly conversation with Jory Cassel, Ned's captain of the guard. They've fought together before, and reminiscing about it together is going to make certain events down the line all the more jarring.

Robert's also being set up as more of an overt jerk, it seems, although there's certainly mentions made of him being snide to Jaime several times in the books.

[valadil]

Liked, but didn't love the new one. I'm actually a little bored during the plotty bits because I've read the books so many times. I like it best when the show deviates from the book, if only because it gives me something new to watch.

Littlefinger grew on me. He wasn't quite how I pictured him, but no longer seems wrong. Jorah Mormont isn't how I pictured him either, but the version in my head is quickly becoming the wrong one.

The tournament was not how I pictured it. I've seen bigger jousts at renfairs. Given how Ned worried about being bankrupted by the tourney, I figured it'd be in a massive Colosseum. I'm guessing that was a budget thing.

I thought Ser Gregor looked small. I had this image of a sagging, beaten clydesdale struggling to hold him. He just looked like a big dude on a horse. I realize they can't get someone who is nearly 8 feet tall and 420lbs, but they could have done more camera trickery to make him look a bit bigger.

[hamlet]

I thought Ser Gregor looked small. I had this image of a sagging, beaten clydesdale struggling to hold him. He just looked like a big dude on a horse. I realize they can't get someone who is nearly 8 feet tall and 420lbs, but they could have done more camera trickery to make him look a bit bigger.

Dude was riding a clydsdale practically. Check that scene again and look closer at the hooves and legs of the animal he's riding. Those hooves are about the size of a dinner platter.

The actor's over 7 feet tall as I recall. Granted, not the 8+ feet of the character, but I don't think there are any such people in the real world that would play the part. Or at all for that matter.

The tournament was, though, woefully sparse. Hopefully, we'll see more of it next episode.

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What I did not like from that scene, though, is that it was not communicated in any fashion that what Gregor did was intentional. It took some of the punch out of the scene, and kind of yanked out some of the importance of it.

[Lord of Rapture]

I have to post this. Spoilered, just in case.

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[The Glyphstone]

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What was up with that three-eyed crow in the beginning, during Bran's dream or whatever that was? That thing really freaked me out - it freaked me out when I thought it was a four-eyed crow, but for some reason, seeing the three eyes head-on was worse.

Did Gregor kill the other knight deliberately for some plot-related reason, or was that just easy shorthand for "this guy is a psychopath" on-screen, the way he was completely nonchalant about accidentally murdering someone?

More and more, I can't wait for Viserys to get his 'crown'...it's one of the few scenes I remember from the book, and he deserves it more and more every week. Now that Daenerys has gotten a spinal cord transplant, he's pretty much useless anyways.

The bit at the end with Tyrion being nabbed confused me. I wasn't sure if Cat had made it back to Winterfell yet, so I wasn't sure if the whole thing at the inn was a deliberate trap set for the Imp, or if she merely jumped at opportunity. My feelings are towards the former, but the lack of timeframe makes it murky.

[valadil]

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What I did not like from that scene, though, is that it was not communicated in any fashion that what Gregor did was intentional. It took some of the punch out of the scene, and kind of yanked out some of the importance of it.

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What I did like about it was that they spelled out who got killed better. I remembered it being some random no-name knight. Instead it was the one Ned was trying to get info from. Makes me wonder who arranged the fights at the joust.

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The bit at the end with Tyrion being nabbed confused me. I wasn't sure if Cat had made it back to Winterfell yet, so I wasn't sure if the whole thing at the inn was a deliberate trap set for the Imp, or if she merely jumped at opportunity. My feelings are towards the former, but the lack of timeframe makes it murky.

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Chance meeting on the Kingsroad. And I agree that it was framed poorly. I still say a little bit of on screen text to show names and locations would go a long way in communicating with the viewer.

[The Glyphstone]

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What I did like about it was that they spelled out who got killed better. I remembered it being some random no-name knight. Instead it was the one Ned was trying to get info from. Makes me wonder who arranged the fights at the joust.

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Chance meeting on the Kingsroad. And I agree that it was framed poorly. I still say a little bit of on screen text to show names and locations would go a long way in communicating with the viewer.

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That just feels really implausible - she happens to run into him and his armed guards in an inn that just happens to be packed to the gills with family friends and sworn allies?

Also..what's with the fat guy? This is like, the last series ever that needs comic relief.

[Dienekes]

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What was up with that three-eyed crow in the beginning, during Bran's dream or whatever that was? That thing really freaked me out - it freaked me out when I thought it was a four-eyed crow, but for some reason, seeing the three eyes head-on was worse.

Did Gregor kill the other knight deliberately for some plot-related reason, or was that just easy shorthand for "this guy is a psychopath" on-screen, the way he was completely nonchalant about accidentally murdering someone?

More and more, I can't wait for Viserys to get his 'crown'...it's one of the few scenes I remember from the book, and he deserves it more and more every week. Now that Daenerys has gotten a spinal cord transplant, he's pretty much useless anyways.

The bit at the end with Tyrion being nabbed confused me. I wasn't sure if Cat had made it back to Winterfell yet, so I wasn't sure if the whole thing at the inn was a deliberate trap set for the Imp, or if she merely jumped at opportunity. My feelings are towards the former, but the lack of timeframe makes it murky.

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Yeah, that scene could have been a bit better. But I thought when Tyrion asked why she wasn't in Winterfell it became obvious that this was not there. Also she says "return him to Winterfell to await the King's justice."

It wasn't a trap, and I think they were trying to convey that since if you stop to think about it, it wouldn't make sense to be a trap. Cat is coming up from King's Landing and Tyrion is going down to meet it, Cat is travelling in secret so couldn't really receive letters saying that Tyrion's coming down to meet her. That's all well and fine but the show should have made this more clear. They could have done a bit more with Cat trying to hide from the Lannister, maybe with Cassel saying "If he sees us, the Lannister's will know we're up to something!" Better written of course. That would alone, with maybe a few extra seconds of Cat trying to move away to avoid Tyrion right before he spots her would have made the entire scene work a bit better.

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That just feels really implausible - she happens to run into him and his armed guards in an inn that just happens to be packed to the gills with family friends and sworn allies?

Also..what's with the fat guy? This is like, the last series ever that needs comic relief.

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Well she is on her father's land now. So it being filled with her father's bannermen makes sense. Also, inn's weren't quite as common, and were generally a days ride apart, so them both passing in the same inn or on the same road (the King's Road is the only major road from King's Landing to Winterfell) is fairly probable.

Also this is how we meet Bronn, so hush.

And fat guy is Sam. He never bothered me, some people are just cowardly, and weak. And I think they were going for an "awww poor guy" rather than laughing at him. Of course I laughed at him too so it's not like the humore was lost on me. Though yeah, the series has quite a bit of comic relief characters, so I'm waiting to see your reaction when we meet Dolorous Edd.

[Lord Raziere]

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Don't knock it, that tavern scene is what kicks off the actual action.

also the fat guy, aka Samwell Tarly, ain't comic relief. far from it. the entire point of his character is that he is a fat scholar person in a world where Nobility Are Warriors (and Schemers). Yes, he is an actual character in the books, and starts serving a more important role later on.

[valadil]

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That just feels really implausible - she happens to run into him and his armed guards in an inn that just happens to be packed to the gills with family friends and sworn allies?

Also..what's with the fat guy? This is like, the last series ever that needs comic relief.

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It does, but if you look at a map there's really only one road between Winterfell and King's Landing. With Tyrion heading from Winterfell to King's Landing and Cat heading from King's Landing to Winterfell, they were bound to pass. And Tyrion is flamboyant enough that he was going to get noticed if they were in the same room at the same time.

Notice that Caitlyn referred to herself by her maiden name when she announced her presence. That's because she was a Tully and the area where this takes place is near the Tullys. In the books Tyrion points out that it was clever of her to make a big deal about being a Tully because people would not have been so friendly to a Stark.

When rushed into a 5 minute scene, it does seem a lot more coincidental though.

I find Sam to be a bit more pathetic than funny. He gets better though. He's the kind of character who has strong ideals even if he isn't always able to uphold them.

[hamlet]

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That just feels really implausible - she happens to run into him and his armed guards in an inn that just happens to be packed to the gills with family friends and sworn allies?

Also..what's with the fat guy? This is like, the last series ever that needs comic relief.

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Actually, it's not. The problem is that the show made no explanation of where they were and why such a meeting would not be a chance, "convenient" meeting.

The inn is The Inn of the Crossroads, about the busiest and largest in in that region at a major crossroads for the King's Road and the Western/Vale roads, the biggest roads going throughout the kingdoms, so there's every reason to expect that at least Tyrion would have stopped there on his way back south.

The surprise, really, is that Catelyn would have stopped there when, as was detailed in the novels, she was supposed to be traveling incognito. It was our first real hint that, despite the fact that she's relatively likable and sympathetic, she's not as clever by half as she thinks she is and she does some very stupid things, not least of which was stopping at about the most famous and busy inn in the area when she was supposed to be keeping her head down.

None of this, though, was made plain in the show, so take it for what it's worth.

[Zmflavius]

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What was up with that three-eyed crow in the beginning, during Bran's dream or whatever that was? That thing really freaked me out - it freaked me out when I thought it was a four-eyed crow, but for some reason, seeing the three eyes head-on was worse.

Did Gregor kill the other knight deliberately for some plot-related reason, or was that just easy shorthand for "this guy is a psychopath" on-screen, the way he was completely nonchalant about accidentally murdering someone?

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The three-eyed crow is a symbolic "spirit teacher" of whom very little is known. The third eye traditionally is used to represent knowledge of otherworldly wisdom, on the order of having a magic eye. The crow traditionally is viewed as a wise bird, hence the three-eyed crow is basically a magical bird.

Both. He likes killing and the knight was going to talk to Ned later.

[Flickerdart]

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Did Gregor kill the other knight deliberately for some plot-related reason, or was that just easy shorthand for "this guy is a psychopath" on-screen, the way he was completely nonchalant about accidentally murdering someone?

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The dead guy was Arryn's former squire, knighted shortly after the suspicious death of his former master and killed right after Eddard made it known he wanted to talk.

[The Glyphstone]

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So Gregor is/was in on the conspiracy to kill Jon Arryn, then. Good to know.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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What I did not like from that scene, though, is that it was not communicated in any fashion that what Gregor did was intentional. It took some of the punch out of the scene, and kind of yanked out some of the importance of it.

As with Syrio not being around, this is book-based. If you manage to keep names straight*, you do know at this point in the books that the new knight that used to be Arryn's servant is now dead before Ned could talk to him, and it does look for all the world like it was an accident during jousting, especially since he is very new and didn't know how to tighten his armor properly.

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It takes a few chapters for someone to spell it out for Ned that Gregor Clegaine is very good at this and that he meant to lance the poor boy. However, it is never entirely clear if he was ordered to kill the boy, or if it was just Clegor wanting to kill him when he saw he had the chance. So while we know it was intentional, we never do discover what intention was that drove Clegane

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So Gregor is/was in on the conspiracy to kill Jon Arryn, then. Good to know.

Major Book Spoilers (Book 3 revelation):

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Actually, he almost certainly wasn't; although this answer requires you to trust Littlefinger's word, so take with a ton of salt. At any rate, Gregor is better understood as a walking battleaxe. He is never a thinker, he just obeys. Even if he was involved, I'm not sure he could be described as being 'in' a conspiracy - that'd require thought process.

Grey Wolf

*it took me three readings to connect the dead boy in a Sansa chapter to the arrogant off-page character of Ned's.

[Nomrom]

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So Gregor is/was in on the conspiracy to kill Jon Arryn, then. Good to know.

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Well, I always felt that he wasn't really in on the conspiracy, he was just really good at killing people. Once you needed someone dead, he'd take care of them for you and not ask any questions why cuz he enjoyed killing.

[The Glyphstone]

On a completely unrelated note, the Dr. Horrible discussion thread sparked in me a sort of horrible, awful curiosity towards a hypothetical Game of Thrones musical. Does this make me a bad person?

[Weezer]

On a completely unrelated note, the Dr. Horrible discussion thread sparked in me a sort of horrible, awful curiosity towards a hypothetical Game of Thrones musical. Does this make me a bad person?

Yes. Simply yes.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Edit: Also they are really setting up Sandor for sympathy later on, aren't they?

I don't remember Sandor ever not being sympathetic, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was heavy handed in the books as well.

Ser Alliser's speech to Jon and Sam was great, in my eyes. In the books, he's one of the few characters whose motivation I never really got a sense for (aside from "be a complete prick to everyone to make myself feel better"). His speech here, though, makes it clear that he's a sadist to the recruits because he really thinks he has to be, or else he and his brothers are going to be let down by sub-par Night's Watchmen. Just that one little speech made me like the character and hope to see more of him, even despite his unabashed hostility.

There's also the fact that his job is to deal with people who are mostly utter scum. You don't want a nice guy training your slave army of conscripted rapists.

Jorah Mormont isn't how I pictured him either, but the version in my head is quickly becoming the wrong one.

He looks wrong to me (I imagined him older and bearded) but acts and sounds more or less right.

Though yeah, the series has quite a bit of comic relief characters, so I'm waiting to see your reaction when we meet Dolorous Edd.

Hasn't he already shown up or am I confusing him with the guys who bully Snow at first?

[Zmflavius]

Hasn't he already shown up or am I confusing him with the guys who bully Snow at first?

No, he doesn't really appear until the second book, at which point he practically exhales one-liners.

[Zocelot]

I was disappointed that Petyr told Sansa about the hound rather than the hound himself. I really liked their relationship, and it really helped develop the hound as a character.

[Demon 997]

On a completely unrelated note, the Dr. Horrible discussion thread sparked in me a sort of horrible, awful curiosity towards a hypothetical Game of Thrones musical. Does this make me a bad person?

No. Well, yes, but it also makes you the best person.

[Kellhus]

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I'm pretty sure Hugh of the Vale was just a red herring. Gregor killed him because his armor wasn't properly fastened and because Gregor likes killing people. The full details of Jon Arryn's murder are only revealed in ASOS, and

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It wasn't that much a conspiracy

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was disappointed that Petyr told Sansa about the hound rather than the hound himself. I really liked their relationship, and it really helped develop the hound as a character.

The relationship is not rooted on Sandor's backstory, but on Sansa's pity for him building up trust between them. That relationship can still develop, and the tv writers have found a way to feed us the backstory without having to interrupt that scene. By which I mean: just because they moved the backstory infodump, it doesn't mean they're getting rid of it. They might, or might not, but we don't know that yet.

EDIT:

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I'm pretty sure Hugh of the Vale was just a red herring. Gregor killed him because his armor wasn't properly fastened and because Gregor likes killing people. The full details of Jon Arryn's murder are only revealed in ASOS, and

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It wasn't that much a conspiracy

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And yet you cannot know if Mockingbird didn't just pay Gregor to get rid of the cupbearer that knew of Lis' tears. As I said, it is unlikely, since Gregor is normally a Lannister through and through, but he could easily be used by arranging matters so he would have the chance to act, and he would only have needed minimum prodding beyond having the chance.

Grey Wolf

[Da'Shain]

There's also the fact that his job is to deal with people who are mostly utter scum. You don't want a nice guy training your slave army of conscripted rapists.

You don't really want a completely antagonizing old knight either, though. I'm surprised Ser Alliser has apparently lasted so long without being knifed in his sleep or simply run through on the training grounds, considering how much pretty much everyone hates him and the recruits of the Night's Watch aren't exactly poster children for impulse control.


Agreed on the tourney seeming a bit ... underwhelming. Not nearly as raucous or festive as in the book, but ah well, cuts have to be made somewhere.

And it is weird putting the Hound's backstory in Littlefinger's mouth, but I guess they're just making clear that the Hound is going to be important later on even though he doesn't do much right now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Agreed on the tourney seeming a bit ... underwhelming. Not nearly as raucous or festive as in the book, but ah well, cuts have to be made somewhere.

They may still dial it up - that was the equivalent to an initial round, one of hundreds. But yes, I don't see why they didn't dress up a football stadium for a few crowd shots and use clever cuts to give the sensation of space. As it is, it felt like something they have filmed in a corridor.

Grey Wolf

[Cristo Meyers]

You don't really want a completely antagonizing old knight either, though. I'm surprised Ser Alliser has apparently lasted so long without being knifed in his sleep or simply run through on the training grounds, considering how much pretty much everyone hates him and the recruits of the Night's Watch aren't exactly post

I was this close to buying him as being hard because he knew what was waiting for Jon and Sam on the other side of the wall, then he moved in on Sam to purposely intimidate the weakest target. Went right back to bully status right there.

Personally, I'm betting on a much bigger tourney setup next episode. Wasn't the Gregor/Hugh match one of the first jousts anyway?