When you play the Game of Thrones...

[hamlet]

To be fair, our only indication of his sexuality in the show thus far is he got naked with a girl, then decided not to do it for a retarded reason (there are contraceptives in ASOIAF as indicated in the books), then going voluntarily to a place where only men are allowed and are forbidden from ever having children.

Certainly. I'm just a mean jerk and found it to be quite funny.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(there are contraceptives in ASOIAF as indicated in the books)

Are there? I remember there is abundant use of 'tansy', a flower that when taken as a tea, can produce a miscarriage/abortion, but nothing that I can remember that works like a contraceptive. And yes, I am aware that to many people both terms are interchangeable, but there is a major difference: those kind of abortive measures in the middle ages involved essentially poisoning the uterus, and had a good chance of poisoning the rest of the mother in the process. They are by no means safe.

Grey Wolf

Edit: corrected the name of the flower

[The J Pizzel]

Are there? I remember there is abundant use of 'pansy', a flower that when taken as a tea, can produce a miscarriage/abortion, but nothing that I can remember that works like a contraceptive. And yes, I am aware that to many people both terms are interchangeable, but there is a major difference: those kind of abortive measures in the middle ages involved essentially poisoning the uterus, and had a good chance of poisoning the rest of the mother in the process. They are by no means safe.

Grey Wolf

The only other use of "contraseptive" that I can think of is 'pulling out'. As per a certain squire and an interesting conversation Tyrion has with him.

Edit - I've never gotten a chance to chime in on all these conversations since I'm at work. Here's my opinion on lots of stuff that's been discussed. I've read the books twice.

Spoilered since it's innevitable:

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As an avid read and someone who frequents all the boards and forums concerning the books and movies, I'm extremely please with what I've seen. They've made plenty of changes both good and bad, but none even remotely detrimental to my enjoyment of the show. I won't bother going back over all the previous episodes cause that would take forever, so I'll just comment on the latest.

Addes scenes: I've not been upset or dissapointed in a single added scene. Some felt a little off, but none were "bad". I think it's extremely evident that the writers and producers have a deep respect to the mythos and characters of this show. The only character development out of place to me is Cersie. She's definitely more "human" than I imagine her in the books, but it's not really that bad. The added scenes of Viserys/Doreah, Sam/John, Robert/Ned, Ned/Cersie, Jorah/Bloodrider, and most of all Robert/Cersie are all outstanding.

Renly/Loras scene: Simply put, I'm bummed they let the cat out of the bag so soon. That's it. The relationship between the two of them were one of the most amazing things I'd ever noticed when I finally caught it and looked it up online to see if I was right. It is masterfully done in the books and the subtle hints are beautiful. I understand the different medium though, and you do what you gotta do. I wish they could've made little nods to it constantly and had a big reveal later. But oh well. I agree with what everyone is saying about the POV stuff. Also, my personal opinion on why it's there is to give a reason for what Renly offers Ned in the coming episodes, instead of it coming out of left field. Also, I do agree that they've made Renly into a little bit of whiny little brother. He wasn't like that at all in the books.

Fight scenes: I think they've been a little clunky but still good. I've been dreading the Jory scene since the beginning of the series. It was amazingly done. The Ned/Jaime fight scene is apparently being interpreted many different ways. I knew they were gonna make it seem like an "even fight" for cinematic reasons so that's what I saw. My wife, who knows nothing of the series, halfway through the fight said, "Wow, Jaime isn't even trying is he?" So she saw something different. Regardless, I was good. The Hound/Mountain fight dissapointed me a little, but ended badass. So it's cool.

Whew, tired of typing. I'll chime in more in a bit.

[Dienekes]

Are there? I remember there is abundant use of 'pansy', a flower that when taken as a tea, can produce a miscarriage/abortion, but nothing that I can remember that works like a contraceptive. And yes, I am aware that to many people both terms are interchangeable, but there is a major difference: those kind of abortive measures in the middle ages involved essentially poisoning the uterus, and had a good chance of poisoning the rest of the mother in the process. They are by no means safe.

Aye, to back this up with major spoilers.

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Part of Lysa's insane rantings seem to suggest she blames her father for killer her unborn child with Littlefinger and poisoning her uterus so only one rather weak son survived birth.

This is pseudo-corroborated with her father's last words of Tansy, the contraceptive of choice in the series.

[Adumbration]

Knowing the books, I think I'll have to watch this gif in the future quite a few times to reach a sense of peace.

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[The J Pizzel]

Aye, to back this up with major spoilers.

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Part of Lysa's insane rantings seem to suggest she blames her father for killer her unborn child with Littlefinger and poisoning her uterus so only one rather weak son survived birth.

This is pseudo-corroborated with her father's last words of Tansy, the contraceptive of choice in the series.

I believe this is correct.

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Lysa not only blames her dad for the abortion of Littlefingers child, but for potentially ruining her chances of ever again. Yet another reason why she's so crazy for little hellchild. And I've always felt that Hoster's constant repeating of Tansy is not only him admitting to the abortion, but somewhat acknowledgment that it's his fault Lysa never had any other littluns.

[Da'Shain]

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Perhaps I have it confused and it's the same thing as the previously mentioned Pansy or Tansy or w/e, but Moon Tea seems to be a more normal contraceptive, at least from the way I've been reading it. Arianne Martell seems to view it as such and sees no problem with continuing to use it, which implies that it doesn't cause miscarriages so much as prevent conception taking place. And the "discovery" that Margaery was using Moon Tea regularly is taken as evidence that she's being unfaithful to the king, which again seems to suggest that it's a contraceptive and not designed to induce miscarriage. The name also does, considering how womens' cycles are often perceived to be linked to lunar cycles, and modern birth control pills are taken on a similar schedule.

The reason we don't see Cersei using it if that's the case, I assume, is that when she was married to Robert, he likely would have beat her if he found out she was attempting to deprive him of more heirs, and after Robert's death, had anyone discovered that she was using it would have led to prying questions and possibly her losing the support of the people, lending credence to Stannis' accusations of her being, well, a cheating whore.

[The J Pizzel]

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Perhaps I have it confused and it's the same thing as the previously mentioned Pansy or Tansy or w/e, but Moon Tea seems to be a more normal contraceptive, at least from the way I've been reading it. Arianne Martell seems to view it as such and sees no problem with continuing to use it, which implies that it doesn't cause miscarriages so much as prevent conception taking place. And the "discovery" that Margaery was using Moon Tea regularly is taken as evidence that she's being unfaithful to the king, which again seems to suggest that it's a contraceptive and not designed to induce miscarriage. The name also does, considering how womens' cycles are often perceived to be linked to lunar cycles, and modern birth control pills are taken on a similar schedule.

The reason we don't see Cersei using it if that's the case, I assume, is that when she was married to Robert, he likely would have beat her if he found out she was attempting to deprive him of more heirs, and after Robert's death, had anyone discovered that she was using it would have led to prying questions and possibly her losing the support of the people, lending credence to Stannis' accusations of her being, well, a cheating whore.

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I think Tansy and Moon Tea are two different things. But I could be wrong. And I thought Margery wasn't actually taking it, that was just a lie that Cersie had them make up. Also, Cersie never really needed it because at the end of the first book she comments to Ned when asked how he never got him with child she says he got her pregnant once but she aborted it (the one time she did use it) and also "Oh I found other ways to please him, when he left is whores long enough to stagger drunkenly into my chamber". (paraphrased)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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Perhaps I have it confused and it's the same thing as the previously mentioned Pansy or Tansy or w/e, but Moon Tea seems to be a more normal contraceptive, at least from the way I've been reading it. Arianne Martell seems to view it as such and sees no problem with continuing to use it, which implies that it doesn't cause miscarriages so much as prevent conception taking place. And the "discovery" that Margaery was using Moon Tea regularly is taken as evidence that she's being unfaithful to the king, which again seems to suggest that it's a contraceptive and not designed to induce miscarriage. The name also does, considering how womens' cycles are often perceived to be linked to lunar cycles, and modern birth control pills are taken on a similar schedule.

The reason we don't see Cersei using it if that's the case, I assume, is that when she was married to Robert, he likely would have beat her if he found out she was attempting to deprive him of more heirs, and after Robert's death, had anyone discovered that she was using it would have led to prying questions and possibly her losing the support of the people, lending credence to Stannis' accusations of her being, well, a cheating whore.

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They might be different things, or the same (I'm thinking they're the same), but they're not contraceptive, they are abortive. The Queen admitted (to herself? I don't quite remember, but it was during her PoV, I think) that she drank it after each conjugal visit by King Bob to make sure she never had a Baratheon child - and indeed, she once took it on purpose when she was pregnant with Bob's child at the beginning of their marriage, to get rid of him (IIRC, because he had screamed Lyanna's name).

Now, every abortive is, if taken immediately after conception, "anticonceptive", but I will insist they are not the same, and that we need to call things what they are.

Edit: On the differences between the two:

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I'm not about to go looking for the evidence in the books, but I vaguely recall that "Pansy" is the name used for the tea by the lower classes - mostly the whores, who have it daily - and "moon tea" is the term used by the high classes (who also seem to be guzzling it down by the gallon, I have to say).

[Imperial Psycho]

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I think Tansy and Moon Tea are two different things. But I could be wrong. And I thought Margery wasn't actually taking it, that was just a lie that Cersie had them make up. Also, Cersie never really needed it because at the end of the first book she comments to Ned when asked how he never got him with child she says he got her pregnant once but she aborted it (the one time she did use it) and also "Oh I found other ways to please him, when he left is whores long enough to stagger drunkenly into my chamber". (paraphrased)

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Most of what Cersei had said about Margerey was a lie, but she was taking moon tea.

[Seerow]

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I was referring to Moon Tea, which to my knowledge is something totally different from Tansy. The Moon Tea seems to be contraceptive, while Tansy seems to induce an abortion. It's the difference between being on the pill vs having a miscarriage

[The J Pizzel]

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I was referring to Moon Tea, which to my knowledge is something totally different from Tansy. The Moon Tea seems to be contraceptive, while Tansy seems to induce an abortion. It's the difference between being on the pill vs having a miscarriage

Thanks for clearing that up Psycho. Also, I think the above is correct.

[Da'Shain]

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They might be different things, or the same (I'm thinking they're the same), but they're not contraceptive, they are abortive. The Queen admitted (to herself? I don't quite remember, but it was during her PoV, I think) that she drank it after each conjugal visit by King Bob to make sure she never had a Baratheon child - and indeed, she once took it on purpose when she was pregnant with Bob's child at the beginning of their marriage, to get rid of him (IIRC, because he had screamed Lyanna's name).

Now, every abortive is, if taken immediately after conception, "anticonceptive", but I will insist they are not the same, and that we need to call things what they are.

Well, I don't have the fourth book next to me at the moment, but ...

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When Ned confronts Cersei in the first book, Cersei says "Your Robert got me with child once ... my brother found a woman to cleanse me ... I have not let him inside me for years."

You could be right about Cersei admitting to using Moon Tea specifically in her PoV, but at least from that exchange it seems as though she specifically had to find someone to perform the abortion for her, not that she used some kind of potion herself.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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I was referring to Moon Tea, which to my knowledge is something totally different from Tansy. The Moon Tea seems to be contraceptive, while Tansy seems to induce an abortion. It's the difference between being on the pill vs having a miscarriage

OK, found a reference that may or may not be correct:
Moon tea is a type of herbal tea that is used in the Seven Kingdoms as well as beyond the Wall to abort pregnancies. It is made generally by maesters and wise women out of tansy, mint, wormwood, a spoon of honey, and a drop of pennyroyal.

So they're not the same, but pansy is one of the active ingredients of the moon tea (the other being wormwood; the rest seem more for flavour). I still think it is mostly abortive in nature, but from a bit of wiki-ing, it seems that in low doses it might work as a contraceptive.

Grey Wolf

[Artemis97]

On the contraceptive talk, I have an entry on poisons from the Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying book. This coming from the bit on Tansy.

Tansy is one of the key ingredients in Moon tea (with mint, pennyroyal, and wormwood), used as a form of birth control. As with pennyroyal, a strong dose can cause a pregnant woman to lose a child.

So, it seems to me, small doeses in Moon Tea = birth control, but a larger dose will induce a miscarriage.

Just my two cp.

[The J Pizzel]

On the contraceptive talk, I have an entry on poisons from the Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying book. This coming from the bit on Tansy.



So, it seems to me, small doeses in Moon Tea = birth control, but a larger dose will induce a miscarriage.

Just my two cp.

So they're the same thing, yet not the same thing. My mind is blown. Lol. Nah, I think we've figured it out.

[Artemis97]

It can also cause stomach pains and possibly seizures in large enough quantities. It's the dosage that makes the poison, after all.


On another subject, did anyone else catch that their releasing next week's episode immediately after this week's on HBO-Go or whatever they call it?

[Cristo Meyers]

So, it seems to me, small doeses in Moon Tea = birth control, but a larger dose will induce a miscarriage.

Worth pointing out that some forms of the pill work the same way.

[hamlet]

Well now that we've got the differences between abortificants and contraceptives sorted out . . .

Does anybody else but me think the dragons' eggs look . . . stupid? Like giant plastic artichokes?

[Knaight]

Does anybody else but me think the dragons' eggs look . . . stupid? Like giant plastic artichokes?

I agree entirely. They have no business being scaled, given that they are freaking eggs.

[The J Pizzel]

I agree entirely. They have no business being scaled, given that they are freaking eggs.

Yes. The dragon eggs were a huge dissapointment when I first saw them. My thoughts were, hey, at least it's just the look of the dragon eggs. They could've screwed up a lot more things. So I tried to not get too bent over it.

[hamlet]

Yes. The dragon eggs were a huge dissapointment when I first saw them. My thoughts were, hey, at least it's just the look of the dragon eggs. They could've screwed up a lot more things. So I tried to not get too bent over it.

Well, I'm of the opinion that they did screw up a lot of things.

That "uniform" that they slapped onto the gold cloaks looks like it was liberated from Liberache. And don't get me started on the helms worn by Lannister guardsmen.

That, and Valyrian Steel looks so darned lackluster.

But, at the same time, they've gotten a couple things exactly, perfectly, right. The armor of the White Knights, for example, is quite excellent. Not exactly how I imagined it, but very very good.

[Dienekes]

Gotta agree with hamlet here, some of the costume choices are odd.

I don't remember the goldcloaks, at all, but the Lannister guards are the ones with that really funky helmet with cheek and nose guards that open up.

I mean theoretically I don't see why it shouldn't work, but it looks weird, like they're trying to make a kabuto then decided against it at the last second.
Admittedly, I always thought kabuto looked weird too, but that's beside the point.

[Imperial Psycho]

I thought they looked a bit silly too, but rationalised it by saying that in the middle ages, people did wear some pretty silly looking helmets sometimes.

[0Megabyte]

Hey guys, about the dragon eggs:

I was just reading A Game of Thrones again, and the eggs were described straight off as scaled. If you didn't imagine them as scaled, it was not the show's fault. For it got them right, in that regard anyway.

[hamlet]

Hey guys, about the dragon eggs:

I was just reading A Game of Thrones again, and the eggs were described straight off as scaled. If you didn't imagine them as scaled, it was not the show's fault. For it got them right, in that regard anyway.

Yes, it described them as scaled, but it also described them as smooth. The ones in the show are like freakin' artichokes. No wonder dragons are cranky if they have to pass those out of their bodies.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I thought they looked a bit silly too, but rationalised it by saying that in the middle ages, people did wear some pretty silly looking helmets sometimes.

Middle-ages? Stupid helmets are far from a thing of the distant past.

[Seerow]

Middle-ages? Stupid helmets are far from a thing of the distant past.

Let's face it, modern fashion sense says anything on the head looks silly. Doesn't mean the helmets are out of place.

[Knaight]

I was just reading A Game of Thrones again, and the eggs were described straight off as scaled. If you didn't imagine them as scaled, it was not the show's fault. For it got them right, in that regard anyway.

Scaled is a very broad term, and as was stated they were also described as smooth. Which means this:

has scales that are somewhat in line with acceptable, where this:

is completely unacceptable. Given that this is closer to the sort of scales used, "No business being scaled" is a fair assessment, if extremely sloppy.

Note that that is a carp, and the second shark skin. Snake skin might well be more applicable, which looks like this:

[Flickerdart]

I'm sorry, but could you explain what part of shark-dragon isn't awesome, exactly?