When you play the Game of Thrones...

[Seerow]

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Uhm, spoilers?

His post was a comment on an episode that aired more than a week ago, commenting how the show made it more obvious than the books. The only spoiler in what he said was that what was made plain in the show wasn't even hinted at at this point in the books. Anyone reading this thread I'd expect to be keeping up with the show enough to not be spoiled by something that aired over a week ago.

[The Glyphstone]

curse you, page bug demon!

[SuperPanda]

On starks and Lannisters:

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The comments on book Starks and Lannisters are interesting, it shows that the show has done a pretty good job of things so far.

I don't know if its the writing or the acting, but episode 7 was definately a turning point for Ned's character. In what sounds like going contrary to the books, Ned failed largely because he acted against his ideals as I see it.

The show placed Ned at a crossroads. He was seeking justice (vengence really) for what was done to his boy while also trying to keep the king's peace and remain honorable. The King ordered him to make peace with the Lannisters, Cersei specifically, an order which he defied out of his anger/hatred for the Lanisters. Its perfectly understandable and incredibly human, but it was failing his ideals all the same. This lead to him deepening the aggression between the two houses and making it clear to Cersei that he was a treat.

He warned Cersei, which was in holding to his ideals, and holding with his ideals really could have given him leverage later had he sought to make peace as little finger suggested and as Robert ordered. When it came down to choosing what was good for the realm or what was good for Ned Stark's anger, he chose his own anger and that spurned/allowed Littlefinger to betray him and put him in a bad position.

Kidnapping Tyrion was a stupid move, but it was a move that made sense and it could have been reconciled by either side without it escalating as it did. This said, the Lannisters don't strike me as people who ever negotiate.

I feel that had Ned been more honorable he'd have left King's Landing, and the Game of Thrones, to be someone else's problem. He's on his way to prevent his wife from doing something stupid with Tyrion when Jamie halts him in the street, and of course he has to defend his wife's honor and life with his own... but from there, is it too much to say that his orders were to hold him in Winterfell, alive, and await a fair trial? From the point he gets wounded on, he becomes increasingly hostile to the Lannisters to the point of encouraging and accepting all out war as his desired (only) outcome. His honor could have tempered that anger and put him in a position to exact Justice for Brann without bringing war to the seven kingdoms, but as his honor fell so did he.

[Klose_the_Sith]

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Tywin's main problem is that his three heirs are all traits of his seperated out rather than copies of himself.

Cersei has his ruthlessness and ambition.
Tyrion has his intelligence.
Jaime has his presence.
Kevan has his competance and sense.

His most important trait is probably his experience though.

You left out his arrogance, cruelty (mostly through spite), and apathy.

Near as I can tell, he want's to "win" and the fact that the realm prospers if he does is just incidental.

If the man thought it'd work, he'd build Northmen concentration camps

Fun fact - I don't actually care about spoilers anymore. Since a few pages ago, there's nothing that will matter as much to me in the series anymore, so I've just been reading them and thinking 'huh'. Still reading the books cause that's good reading, but the twists barely mean anything anymore.

So far none for Danaerys, cause I'm still engaged with her story, but everyone else has been fair game ...

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Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners does not appease me. They could tear down the walls of Casterly Rock and bring the Freys, Boltons and Lannisters to ultimate ruin and I still wouldn't be satisfied.

Rebels are worth less than nothing, to me. This series is running near empty for me unless a new faction joins soon

[Seerow]

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You left out his arrogance, cruelty (mostly through spite), and apathy.

Near as I can tell, he want's to "win" and the fact that the realm prospers if he does is just incidental.

If the man thought it'd work, he'd build Northmen concentration camps

Fun fact - I don't actually care about spoilers anymore. Since a few pages ago, there's nothing that will matter as much to me in the series anymore, so I've just been reading them and thinking 'huh'. Still reading the books cause that's good reading, but the twists barely mean anything anymore.

So far none for Danaerys, cause I'm still engaged with her story, but everyone else has been fair game ...

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Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners does not appease me. They could tear down the walls of Casterly Rock and bring the Freys, Boltons and Lannisters to ultimate ruin and I still wouldn't be satisfied.

Rebels are worth less than nothing, to me. This series is running near empty for me unless a new faction joins soon

Goddamn you want another new faction? How many do you need to make you happy? There's already like 50 of them!

[Klose_the_Sith]

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Goddamn you want another new faction? How many do you need to make you happy? There's already like 50 of them!

But only a couple of them have any legitimacy to their claims and wield actual power - ones like that I'd've cared for have all vanished, excepting Danaerys/

When there's only one faction you care about, the others are just one big blob of 'meh' that all get labelled as enemies.

[Dienekes]

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What legitimacy? Dany's cause is no more or less legitimate than the Lannisters.

Now there are numerous things I can see to make you cheer for one side or the other, who'll cause the least bloodshed, who'll be most like to defend against the Others, who is lead by a character the you like for whatever reason, but I don't see how any of the squabbling sides are legitimate in any way.

[0Megabyte]

Let's actually count factions! This'll be fun.

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We begin with those in the North. We had the King in the North, who at one time had most of the North's forces. Since then, Roose Bolton's faction has risen, the Karstarks have joined Stannis, the people from Bear Island remain defiant, and we have not heard of how the Crannogmen are doing. In addition, many portions of the North are still under the control of the Iron Islands, another faction.

North of that we have the Night's Watch, Mance Rayder's army of wildlings, Stannis Baratheon/Melisandre.

South we have the Riverland forces still fighting against the Lannisters, the Frays and their allies. We have the Vale of Arryn. There are still mountain clans up there too. We have the Lannisters led by Kevan. We have the Tyrells, who stand a chance of taking over the throne. We also have Cercei Lannisters, a faction on her own. We have the Sparrows, with their religious theocracy brewing. Storm's End no longer counts. The Maesters of Oldtown count, though, as does the splinter group. We have the Brotherhood Without Banners, the Sand Snakes, Dorne proper.

On the other side of the narrow sea we have Dany and her new kingdom of Meereene, Yunkai, Astapor, Pentos and Magister Illyrio, the scattered Dothraki, the servants of Rh'llar, Qarth and it's warlocks, the Nine Free Cities, and the Face Dancers.

Am I missing anybody?

[Flame of Anor]

On a new topic, who do you all think will end up on the Iron Throne at the end of the last book? (Based on info from all books so far.)

Will it be...

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Stannis Baratheon? The only surviving true Baratheon, and reasonably competent, but not super-kingly.

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Tommen "Baratheon"? Not really a major player, but he does have it right now and he isn't a jerk like his brother.

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Jon Snow? One of the few people on the list who would really be good at it. Only possible if the R+L=J theorists are correct, but it's a perfectly plausible theory.

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i.e. Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon

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Daenerys Targaryen? Unless R+L=J, the only surviving Targaryen, and thus has a very good claim. However, IIRC she's infertile, so she couldn't continue the line.

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Gendry Waters? If R+L does not = J, then he's got a pretty good claim. In the absence of legitimate heirs, bastardy has been overlooked before.

[hamlet]

On a new topic, who do you all think will end up on the Iron Throne at the end of the last book? (Based on info from all books so far.)

Will it be...

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Stannis Baratheon? The only surviving true Baratheon, and reasonably competent, but not super-kingly.

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Tommen "Baratheon"? Not really a major player, but he does have it right now and he isn't a jerk like his brother.

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Jon Snow? One of the few people on the list who would really be good at it. Only possible if the R+L=J theorists are correct, but it's a perfectly plausible theory.

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i.e. Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon

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Daenerys Targaryen? Unless R+L=J, the only surviving Targaryen, and thus has a very good claim. However, IIRC she's infertile, so she couldn't continue the line.

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Gendry Waters? If R+L does not = J, then he's got a pretty good claim. In the absence of legitimate heirs, bastardy has been overlooked before.

All plausible, but I highly suspect that the resolution is going to be something nobody sees coming, at least in some ways.

[Whammydill]

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I think the three heads of the dragon will be Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion. I think Daenerys will eventually win the Iron-throne and have to deal with the Others(ice) using her Dragons(fire.) Sam will be their maester after he gets trained.

[Lord Raziere]

All plausible, but I highly suspect that the resolution is going to be something nobody sees coming, at least in some ways.

Like Sansa or Tyrion.

[Derthric]

All plausible, but I highly suspect that the resolution is going to be something nobody sees coming, at least in some ways.

Let the conjecture begin!

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It gets crazy and lists alot of Info

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Its going to be Mya Stone, as Robert's eldest bastard child, married to Tyrion, for the sheer awesome of it. Jon will become the new King Beyond the wall and keep the wildlings as a newer leaner meaner Night's Watch north of the wall. Stannis will just brood in the corner since deep down he really is all Emo "waaahhhh wahhhhh Renly got Storm's End. Waaahhhh wahhhh no one likes me and it can't be because I reward men who save me by chopping off their fingers". And Lady Stoneheart will rule the north and the Riverlands with the Iron Fist of the Undead, after Arya shanks every last Bolton and Frey she can find. Also Dany never makes it to Westeros and misses the party completely!

But seriously it would not surprise me if there is some sort of massive heroic Sacrifice on the part of the lead Protagonists and the Iron Throne is left empty leaving the 7 Kingdoms to reemerge as Independent Nations. I just don't see anyone(who deserves to) "winning" ever in this setting.

And as far as Factions go, there are effectively 2 possibly 3 in the Iron Men alone. Asha has her small band, Victarion could be read seen as his own underground faction and then Euron as the possessor of the Seastone Chair.

Also I think Lady Mormont of Bear Island as well as a smattering of smaller lords in the North, like the house Brann talks about in the hills north of Winterfell, and the Crannogmen will form a small backbone of True Stark/anti-bolton supporters.

Also there is the Vale Knights like the Royces and then there is the plans of Littlefinger there so can't really lump them together.

I just started a new Job and had to playcatch up with Episodes 4 5 and 6 recently and I think they were awesome, but with one nitpick and one desperate question. I don't like the way they portray the Eyrie, it seemed less like a towering unreachable mountaintop fortress than a big squat dome.

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Also where is the Black Fish?!

[hamlet]

Wild speculation?

Sure, why not.

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The three heads of the dragon will be Dany, Jon, and the Martel boy whose name escapes me at the moment.

Gendry will be legitimized and inheret Storm's End as the new Lord Baratheon. Possibly be wed to Arya to join North with Storm Lands assuming Arya turns aside from her quest for vengeance.

Tyrion and Sansa will remain wed, having reconciled after Sansa destroys Littlefinger utterly. Together, they will rule Casterly Rock and the Eyrie together, controlling a large portion of Westeros between them.

The Riverlands will be governed from Harrenhall by a heretofore unknown personage. The Tulleys will lose their overlordship, but remain a viable family at Riverrun, possibly being absorbed into the North.

The North will be ruled by Bran, wed to Meera Reed. Bran will be known as "Bran the Dreamer" and will possibly maintain the North as it's own kingdom, or will join it as semi-autonomous with the Iron Throne. He will, regardless, be successful in rebuilding all that has been destroyed in the North and, possibly, utterly destroy the Boltons. Rickon will be made lord of the Dreadfort in their place, or potentially a new Lord Karstark.

Stannis will become King Beyond the Wall after finally slaying the Red Woman. He will be a staunch, if grim, ally of the 7 Kingdoms.

The Greyjoys will not change one iota. They will remain the buttmonkeys of this universe.

Sam will be the new Grand Maester.

Littlefinger will die horribly when his schemes finally implode on him, courtesy of one Scrappy Stark.

Varys will resume his position as spymaster for the new regime, his loyalty to the Targaryens having been unshakable all along.

Marwyn will take up a new position within the court as a sort of occult advisor and dragon supervisor of sorts.

The dragons themselves will be used to anihilate the Others and will become fruitful and multiply, returning to the land once again.

Valyria will, in the upcoming book, be revealed to be a smoking ruin destroyed by a volcanic event and filled to the brim with powerful and nasty artifacts, and oodles of dragon eggs unhatched.

Of course, I reserve the right to be entirely and wholly incorrect.

[Whammydill]

Wild speculation?

Sure, why not.

snipperific*

Of course, I reserve the right to be entirely and wholly incorrect.

I like that, I could see that happening.

[Eldan]

Most if it yes. However I think...

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That Stannis will die. Perhaps as a self-sacrifice, given that his new goal is to prove his worth to the kingdom by actually doing something for it.

[Serpentine]

His post was a comment on an episode that aired more than a week ago, commenting how the show made it more obvious than the books. The only spoiler in what he said was that what was made plain in the show wasn't even hinted at at this point in the books. Anyone reading this thread I'd expect to be keeping up with the show enough to not be spoiled by something that aired over a week ago.

If everyone was able to access each episode at the exact same rate, you might have a point. Maybe. As a rule, both here and, in my opinion, everywhere else, it's best to assume that spoilers are not wanted.
Case in point: I now understand that stuff about gold everyone was talking about! Since yesterday. And it hasn't actually arrived on TV in this country yet.

[Mathis]

If everyone was able to access each episode at the exact same rate, you might have a point. Maybe. As a rule, both here and, in my opinion, everywhere else, it's best to assume that spoilers are not wanted.
Case in point: I now understand that stuff about gold everyone was talking about! Since yesterday. And it hasn't actually arrived on TV in this country yet.

Indeed. The airing dates vary from country to country, it didn't even start to air here until a week ago. So until the DvDs are out it's best to assume that nobody wants to read spoilers. Alternatively, start a thread with a spoiler warning in the title. Or you can get this done.

[Mauther]

If everyone was able to access each episode at the exact same rate, you might have a point. Maybe. As a rule, both here and, in my opinion, everywhere else, it's best to assume that spoilers are not wanted.
Case in point: I now understand that stuff about gold everyone was talking about! Since yesterday. And it hasn't actually arrived on TV in this country yet.

Well that was why I put it behind a spoiler warning. Unless your complaining that that I mentioned that SOMEONE is a pawn, which is true of more than one person at this point. I did mention the war, but since that is basically the title of the second book, I assumed that's open air now too.

[Mauther]

On a new topic, who do you all think will end up on the Iron Throne at the end of the last book? (Based on info from all books so far.)

Will it be...

Based on Martin's other work, it will be either

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Dr Tachyon or the Great and Powerful Turtle. Although since I believe Tachyon is now impotent that would put the kabosh upon a new Takesian empire. So the Turtle... Jersey represent!

[Seerow]

If everyone was able to access each episode at the exact same rate, you might have a point. Maybe. As a rule, both here and, in my opinion, everywhere else, it's best to assume that spoilers are not wanted.
Case in point: I now understand that stuff about gold everyone was talking about! Since yesterday. And it hasn't actually arrived on TV in this country yet.

Frankly, if you're not up to date on the show, your best bet is probably avoiding discussion about said show because you can reasonably assume they will be discussing what's actually happening in the show!

{Scrubbed}

[DomaDoma]

Frankly, if you're not up to date on the show, your best bet is probably avoiding discussion about said show because you can reasonably assume they will be discussing what's actually happening in the show!

{Scrub the post, scrub the post}

I pray no one ever links you to one of Mark's blogs.

[Serpentine]

Well that was why I put it behind a spoiler warning. Unless your complaining that that I mentioned that SOMEONE is a pawn, which is true of more than one person at this point. I did mention the war, but since that is basically the title of the second book, I assumed that's open air now too.

I actually didn't see your spoiler at all. I was responding solely to Seerow.

Frankly, if you're not up to date on the show, your best bet is probably avoiding discussion about said show because you can reasonably assume they will be discussing what's actually happening in the show!

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

So, what, because of my country's programming schedule I'm banned from discussing anything with anyone until I've seen the entire series from start to end?

[Seerow]

So, what, because of my country's programming schedule I'm banned from discussing anything with anyone until I've seen the entire series from start to end?

Or you could find a discussion based from your own country where everyone is at that point in the series. Complaining about people discussing the most recent episode, or the episode from a week before, without spoilers, because you live in a country that hasn't aired it yet is silly.

That's like me going to some Japanese message board and in a discussion about some anime complain that they aren't spoilering discussion about whatever anime it is I'm watching in America that is several episodes behind them, because my country hasn't aired those episodes yet.*


*Note: This is just an example, I don't actually speak japanese or care about anime so the above example would be impossible for me to carry out, but it does illustrate the point.

[Da'Shain]

Or you could find a discussion based from your own country where everyone is at that point in the series. Complaining about people discussing the most recent episode, or the episode from a week before, without spoilers, because you live in a country that hasn't aired it yet is silly.

That's like me going to some Japanese message board and in a discussion about some anime complain that they aren't spoilering discussion about whatever anime it is I'm watching in America that is several episodes behind them, because my country hasn't aired those episodes yet.*

Er ... that's pretty much exactly the situation we're talking about. You really just switched the language and the show in question.

And I fail to see why someone should not be able to participate in a discussion without being spoiled, when putting information in spoiler tags takes all of, what, two clicks? One party misses out on discussion so that the other party doesn't have to move their mouse and click the "Spoil" button up there? That's not a particularly fair or logical complaint to make.

[Seerow]

Er ... that's pretty much exactly the situation we're talking about. You really just switched the language and the show in question.

And the point was to illustrate how absurd it would be. Apparently you think going to a forum from another country and demanding they spoiler tag everything so you don't get spoiled by reading their discussions is fine. I think it's ridiculous.

And I fail to see why someone should not be able to participate in a discussion without being spoiled, when putting information in spoiler tags takes all of, what, two clicks? One party misses out on discussion so that the other party doesn't have to move their mouse and click the "Spoil" button up there? That's not a particularly fair or logical complaint to make.

I have no problem spoiler tagging something like stuff from Episode 7 (not officially aired yet), or book spoilers (this is a TV discussion thread, not a book discussion thread), but when you're saying spoiler everything related to the show, even stuff that has aired officially because someone in another country may not have access to that yet, I'm going to say no, that's a stupid request. At that point you are asking for basically the entire thread as relates to the show in spoiler tags.

After all, some countries out there probably haven't premiered the show yet. What do you mean Bran gets thrown out a window?! Spoiler that! Wait those twins are having sex with each other?! Spoilers!

You need to set a limit for what is acceptable to discuss without the spoiler tags, or else those tags lose all meaning. If we start discussing stuff that has been aired officially with spoiler tags, then people wanting to discuss the show start opening them, and get spoiled on the side book discussion by accident. Or you spoil somebody on episode 7 who's only seen episode 6 and wants to discuss that.

The alternative is labeling every post's spoiler tags with what it discusses, down to the exact episode it references, or the books it references. And that ends up taking more work than it's worth.

[Mathis]

Seerow, I'm asking you very politely to please spoiler spoilers like what you mentioned from the episodes on behalf of those that hasn't seen the episodes yet. This would also extend to future posts. Please, nobody wants to read spoilers and have a good show ruined.

[Seerow]

{Scrubbed}

[valadil]

Indeed. The airing dates vary from country to country, it didn't even start to air here until a week ago. So until the DvDs are out it's best to assume that nobody wants to read spoilers. Alternatively, start a thread with a spoiler warning in the title. Or you can get this done.

I'm of the opinion that the newest episode should be spoilered. Currently that's episode 6. When 7 comes out, we can talk about 6. If I'm more than a week behind, I won't be checking up on this thread, even though I've read the books.

But my opinion doesn't take other countries into account. I usually assume that episodes air later in the same week, but I have no basis for that and was surprised by the quote about. I'm also going on the assumption that people who are more than a week behind will probably just download the episodes anyway. Just how far behind is the show airing for everyone else?

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: Please note that, since this thread isn't marked with [spoilers] in the title, under the forum rules you should put any spoilers under a spoiler tag.