When you play the Game of Thrones...

[Axolotl]

Well, I waited for the first season to be done, then binged it online. I don't think it's anywhere near the best series ever, but it's not terrible. Though I will say that I flat-out hate every single scene and character that's been part of the Dothraki plot - with little to no exceptions. Not even in the same way I hate [character X] because they did [evil thing Y] - I mean I honestly think that that whole Daenerys plot is awful from an out-of-universe perspective. But that's just me, perhaps.

Why? What is it about that plotline which you dislike?

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Apart from the whole inbreeding thing, is there any real reason for Joffrey's cartoonish 'dumb sadistic evil' thing? Amidst the more realistically morally black characters, he just comes across more as some sort of caricature. There's not a thing he's done that I can really find believable when compared to the others.

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He's a teenager who's had people telling him that he's going to be king and how awesome he is his whole life. I don't see what's particularly unrealistic about him, there's no shortage of historical royalty that acted just as badly.

[Zmflavius]

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Apart from the whole inbreeding thing, is there any real reason for Joffrey's cartoonish 'dumb sadistic evil' thing? Amidst the more realistically morally black characters, he just comes across more as some sort of caricature. There's not a thing he's done that I can really find believable when compared to the others.

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I think a major reason is the fact that his mother is a bitch, and his father was neglectful and not the best role-model.

[Darklord Bright]

Why? What is it about that plotline which you dislike?

It's a mixture of hating all the characters involved except for Jorah - who seems to be channeling Russell Crowe or something, but is an alright character - and just finding the whole plot insipid from my own point of view. As I said, I'm totally aware that others probably do not share this opinion, but I'd have skipped every last one of those scenes if I didn't think I might miss something important to the big picture. They're just not fun to watch for me, and I'm not sure if I can really explain it. Plus

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THE MELTING POINT OF GOLD IS HOTTER THAN MAGMA AND YOU JUST COOKED IT ON A COAL FIRE WHAAAAAAAAAA

From my humble standpoint, it just seems to be the weakest plot of the series, which is sad because I really do like the stuff going on in Westeros right now.

...uh, by that I don't mean I approve of it from a moral standpoint, but... well, you know. Fun to watch.

[hamlet]

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THE MELTING POINT OF GOLD IS HOTTER THAN MAGMA AND YOU JUST COOKED IT ON A COAL FIRE WHAAAAAAAAAA

No.

The melting point of gold is, actually, quite acheivable on a camp fire that's properly stoked and given a bit of time. You won't get liquified gold, but you will get softened and running gold, which is what the original scene in the book indicated.

The problem in the scene is inherent in the show which translated semi-soft "gloppy" gold for a bucket of yellow paint with glitter in it and compressed time to about 10 seconds.

[Tiki Snakes]

Haven't seen the show yet, but not liking the Daenerys/Dothraki plot is hardly a controversial point of view, at least from what I have read of the books and so on.

Unless they've done the unthinkable and made it really awesome for the TV show somehow.

[Dienekes]

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Apart from the whole inbreeding thing, is there any real reason for Joffrey's cartoonish 'dumb sadistic evil' thing? Amidst the more realistically morally black characters, he just comes across more as some sort of caricature. There's not a thing he's done that I can really find believable when compared to the others.

Ehh sociopath princes isn't exactly unheard of in real life. Hell there's a Chinese saying that I always think about when I think of Joffrey that more or less sums him up:

When the King was a prince he pulled the limbs off of bugs, yet all were too afraid to stop him. Now the prince is a king he pulls the limbs off people and we can't stop him if we tried.

Or something like that, It's been awhile since it was told to me.

As to bad science, yeah the book described it more accurately, but then it made other mistakes as well. Personally what bugs me more about the movie is that the arakhs are far too curved to be as successful on horseback as Jorah claims and 2 weeks is way too short a time for a pregnancy to be noticeable. But that's because it's things I know, I honestly never cared much for at what point gold melted.

[Darklord Bright]

No.

The melting point of gold is, actually, quite acheivable on a camp fire that's properly stoked and given a bit of time. You won't get liquified gold, but you will get softened and running gold, which is what the original scene in the book indicated.

The problem in the scene is inherent in the show which translated semi-soft "gloppy" gold for a bucket of yellow paint with glitter in it and compressed time to about 10 seconds.

I could believe that it'd gotten softer and maybe trickled a bit if, as you say, they'd depicted it as having been in there a long time (for some reason). But they didn't, and that's the problem.

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Also, I was under the impression that the melting point of gold was 1064.18 degrees Celsius. Lava's average temperature is around 700 Celsius to 1200.

While yes, over time you might make it slighlty drippy, the problem is that they depicted it as having become, as you said, "a bucket of yellow paint with glitter in it", which could never be achievable with the fire they had.

[hamlet]

I could believe that it'd gotten softer and maybe trickled a bit if, as you say, they'd depicted it as having been in there a long time (for some reason). But they didn't, and that's the problem.

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Also, I was under the impression that the melting point of gold was 1064.18 degrees Celsius. Lava's average temperature is around 700 Celsius to 1200.

While yes, over time you might make it slighlty drippy, the problem is that they depicted it as having become, as you said, "a bucket of yellow paint with glitter in it", which could never be achievable with the fire they had.

Like I said, difference between book and screen. A goodly bit of time passed in the book. Virtually none on TV. The "melted" gold was drippy and "running" not liquified in the book. It was also far less volume than as depicted in the show.

It was a flat out crappily made scene in the show.

And yes, camp fires typically burn between 700 and 1200 degrees, but depending on what you make your fire with, how you stoke and tend it, and etc., you can get one up to a temperature hot enough to smelt steel,which is more than adequate to melt gold. Again, from the book, the fires in question were described as being 10 feet tall, not the little cook fires we saw in the show.

[Darklord Bright]

Like I said, difference between book and screen. A goodly bit of time passed in the book. Virtually none on TV. The "melted" gold was drippy and "running" not liquified in the book. It was also far less volume than as depicted in the show.

It was a flat out crappily made scene in the show.

And yes, camp fires typically burn between 700 and 1200 degrees, but depending on what you make your fire with, how you stoke and tend it, and etc., you can get one up to a temperature hot enough to smelt steel,which is more than adequate to melt gold. Again, from the book, the fires in question were described as being 10 feet tall, not the little cook fires we saw in the show.

Well then, the scene in the book escapes my ire, and I will contend that that makes more sense. But still, as it was depicted in the show, you can't deny that scene was bad. I wouldn't even have mentioned it if it'd been depicted as you described it should have.

[hamlet]

Well then, the scene in the book escapes my ire, and I will contend that that makes more sense. But still, as it was depicted in the show, you can't deny that scene was bad. I wouldn't even have mentioned it if it'd been depicted as you described it should have.

No. I don't deny that many of the things the show did are . . . lack luster comparitively speaking.

This includes the characterization of Joffrey, which in the show, as you say, verges on cartoonish. The show removed pretty much all subtlty that the books had.

[Da'Shain]

No. I don't deny that many of the things the show did are . . . lack luster comparitively speaking.

This includes the characterization of Joffrey, which in the show, as you say, verges on cartoonish. The show removed pretty much all subtlty that the books had.

Er, really? The only thing I can think of that Joffrey did in the show that wasn't in the books was his conversation with Cersei about how he would go about ruling, and the suggestions she makes. Otherwise, everything's been lifted almost directly from the page. Joffrey's not a subtle character at all in either medium, and only gets worse as time goes on.

He's still all too sadly realistic, though.

[Darklord Bright]

So I've heard. I would read the books, but I'm afraid I've rather gone and spoiled this one for myself, and I'm not sure I really want to devote all that time to anything at the moment. It only takes a few hours to finish a series - it takes more devotion for me to read a book, and I will say that the ability to quickly reach over and browse the forums is something not as easy to accomplish with a book in one hand.

I am also in the process of reading a book already, and watching this has served to help keep my thoughts separate. Too many books at once and my brain finds it hard to differentiate.

[hamlet]

Er, really? The only thing I can think of that Joffrey did in the show that wasn't in the books was his conversation with Cersei about how he would go about ruling, and the suggestions she makes. Otherwise, everything's been lifted almost directly from the page. Joffrey's not a subtle character at all in either medium, and only gets worse as time goes on.

He's still all too sadly realistic, though.

It's that they removed many or most of the scenes when he was less of a cartoon so that the character became a ridiculous brat rather than the young kid with sadistic tendancies that being king lets him indulge with impunity.

[Erloas]

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THE MELTING POINT OF GOLD IS HOTTER THAN MAGMA AND YOU JUST COOKED IT ON A COAL FIRE WHAAAAAAAAAA

Umm, no?
The melting point of gold is just over 1000C. Coal burns somewhere around 1500C.

And judging from the color indicators as listed on Wikipedia, I've seen camp fires get into the cherry red to orangish color ranges which is 900-1100C.

[Da'Shain]

It's that they removed many or most of the scenes when he was less of a cartoon so that the character became a ridiculous brat rather than the young kid with sadistic tendancies that being king lets him indulge with impunity.

That's exactly what he is in the show, though. He's a brat/borderline sociopath kept in line basically only because other than his mother and his dog, no one will indulge his whims. The books make this less clear from the beginning, certainly, but that's mostly because the first time we get any amount of significant Joffrey screen time is when he and Sansa find Arya and Mycah by the river. The scenes in the book where he was "less of a cartoon" (which, again, people like that are not only in cartoons, sad to say) are only like that because Joffrey is not being indulged and likely has been warned to be on good behavior by his mother or Tyrion.

[Darklord Bright]

Umm, no?
The melting point of gold is just over 1000C. Coal burns somewhere around 1500C.

And judging from the color indicators as listed on Wikipedia, I've seen camp fires get into the cherry red to orangish color ranges which is 900-1100C.

This has been discussed only a little ways up this page.

[hamlet]

That's exactly what he is in the show, though. He's a brat/borderline sociopath kept in line basically only because other than his mother and his dog, no one will indulge his whims. The books make this less clear from the beginning, certainly, but that's mostly because the first time we get any amount of significant Joffrey screen time is when he and Sansa find Arya and Mycah by the river. The scenes in the book where he was "less of a cartoon" (which, again, people like that are not only in cartoons, sad to say) are only like that because Joffrey is not being indulged and likely has been warned to be on good behavior by his mother or Tyrion.

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Actually, you are missing a bit of stuff. The feast, for one, in which it's apparant that he can act completely normal if he so chooses when his ego isn't at stake.

And, though we obviously haven't gotten there, we're missing the quieter things . . .

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such as the intimation that he sent the assasin after Bran in order to win the approval of Robert who he thought was his father.

Joffrey is a little monster, but no more so than any other human being. His primary problem is that his presumed father is an absentee father and nobody around him had the chutzpa to teach him what he needed to know in order to be a better man. He's not just a little monster, no more than anybody else in the real world is. We all have sociopathic tendancies, we just mostly, hopefully, learn how to deal with them better.

[Da'Shain]

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Actually, you are missing a bit of stuff. The feast, for one, in which it's apparant that he can act completely normal if he so chooses when his ego isn't at stake.

And, though we obviously haven't gotten there, we're missing the quieter things . . .

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such as the intimation that he sent the assasin after Bran in order to win the approval of Robert who he thought was his father.

Joffrey is a little monster, but no more so than any other human being. His primary problem is that his presumed father is an absentee father and nobody around him had the chutzpa to teach him what he needed to know in order to be a better man. He's not just a little monster, no more than anybody else in the real world is. We all have sociopathic tendancies, we just mostly, hopefully, learn how to deal with them better.

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The feast, which he seemed perfectly fine at in the show? There was nothing in that scene to suggest him being abnormal in the slightest (well, aside from his perfectly cast face that makes you just want to punch him right off, but, again, plenty of people have those ). He also acted the gentleman to Sansa before they found Arya and Mycah, and even went so far as to apologize to her eventually, although again the audience knows it isn't sincere because we've seen Cersei tell him to do it.

I have no doubt that particular spoiler will come out eventually if the show gets that far, but unless I completely missed it I'm pretty sure there was almost no way for that to be apparent this early. However, it is clear that show Joffrey also cared for his father in his own way, legitimately broken up at his deathbed and seeming to actually be angry at Barristan for "letting him die".

His primary problem certainly isn't his absentee father, although that's not a helpful factor. His primary problem is being raised by a mother who dotes on him, blinds herself to the evidence of his imbalance and has raised him to believe that people are his playthings, without instilling in him any sort of sense of right and wrong or even much in the way of pragmatism, as his naive speech about how he'd run the kingdom showed. Tommen and Myrcella, who it's made clear received far less attention from Cersei, turned out more or less like normal children (well, normal entitled children).

And I'm sorry, but Joffrey certainly is more of a little monster than most other human beings. The fact that we all are born with certain sociopathic tendencies does not mean that we are all the same as someone who has never learned to curb them. That's kind of like saying serial killers are no worse than other humans, because hey, who hasn't thought of killing a few people every now and then?

[hamlet]

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The feast, which he seemed perfectly fine at in the show? There was nothing in that scene to suggest him being abnormal in the slightest (well, aside from his perfectly cast face that makes you just want to punch him right off, but, again, plenty of people have those ). He also acted the gentleman to Sansa before they found Arya and Mycah, and even went so far as to apologize to her eventually, although again the audience knows it isn't sincere because we've seen Cersei tell him to do it.

I have no doubt that particular spoiler will come out eventually if the show gets that far, but unless I completely missed it I'm pretty sure there was almost no way for that to be apparent this early. However, it is clear that show Joffrey also cared for his father in his own way, legitimately broken up at his deathbed and seeming to actually be angry at Barristan for "letting him die".

His primary problem certainly isn't his absentee father, although that's not a helpful factor. His primary problem is being raised by a mother who dotes on him, blinds herself to the evidence of his imbalance and has raised him to believe that people are his playthings, without instilling in him any sort of sense of right and wrong or even much in the way of pragmatism, as his naive speech about how he'd run the kingdom showed. Tommen and Myrcella, who it's made clear received far less attention from Cersei, turned out more or less like normal children (well, normal entitled children).

And I'm sorry, but Joffrey certainly is more of a little monster than most other human beings. The fact that we all are born with certain sociopathic tendencies does not mean that we are all the same as someone who has never learned to curb them. That's kind of like saying serial killers are no worse than other humans, because hey, who hasn't thought of killing a few people every now and then?

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Not arguing that he isn't a little monster. The kid is, and nobody cheered louder than me when he finally bought it, though I felt slightly sympathetic to a mother who had to watch her son die horribly and in terrible pain.

Slight sympathy.

My point, though, is that Joff's prime problem is that nobody ever reigned him in, held his worst aspects in check. He grew up realizing that not only could very few restrain him, but nobody would, and when he became king, he was effectively untouchable. It's classic disinhibition situation.

And we'll disagree, I think, on how monstrous your average person is. I'm of the opinion that most humans are a hair's breadth from some pretty heinous behavior. It was fairly common practice in my own parents' time to tie the tails of two cats together and toss them over the a clothes line to die scratching and biting at each other, a particularly terrible thing to do to a cat by the way, and this was considered entertainment by such people who would otherwise be "upstanding citizens." The things I've seen people do to each other when they felt they could is absolutely breathtaking, so you'll forgive me if my opinion of humanity is correspondingly low.

[TheSummoner]

*Glances up at discussion about the melting point of gold and heat of a wood fire*

*Blank stare*

Comeon people, we've already had this conversation. Hell, I brought it up the day after that episode aired...

They either didn't do the research or didn't really care. Moving on.

[hamlet]

*Glances up at discussion about the melting point of gold and heat of a wood fire*

*Blank stare*

Comeon people, we've already had this conversation. Hell, I brought it up the day after that episode aired...

They either didn't do the research or didn't really care. Moving on.

Except yer science is still wrong.

[TheSummoner]

My science amounted to looking up the melting point of gold and heat that wood burns at and seeing that wood doesn't burn high enough to melt gold.

[Kellhus]

Who cares about the proper science? I can get as pedantic as the next guy, but in this case, the only real alternatives were for them to find a coal furnace or awkwardly wait around for twenty(or cut to another scene). Either way it kills the dramatic tension.

[hamlet]

My science amounted to looking up the melting point of gold and heat that wood burns at and seeing that wood doesn't burn high enough to melt gold.

No. A large campfire can get hot enough to melt aluminum. A bonfire can get up to 2200 degrees F, which is more than enough to melt gold.

You are factually incorrect.

[Axolotl]

About Joffrey:

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I think the key to understanding Joffrey's personality is in the 3rd book where you find out that he was the one who tried to kill Bran. And more importantly that he did it to try to please Robert. Also in the 3rd book I think is when Tywin asks where he got all the nonsense about how a king must be strong and Cersei says that was what Robert told him.

This ultimately is why Joffrey is so violent, he's desperate to live up to his father and he thinks that's how he would respond. All his talk about how rebels and traitors need to be killed are very similar to how Robert acted. When he chops Tyrions book into pieces that is him emulating how he saw Robert. But since Cersei raised him he's far more arrogant and far less likable than Robert. I mean while not many people think he's a great king almost everyone likes Robert because he's a pretty nice guy. Joffrey on the other hand is too far removed from reality to him everyone is his subject and they either obey him or they're a traitor who needs to be killed and they will be because he's the king and that's how it should work. He is the end product of all Cersei's and Roberts worst traits and that's alot of traits.

Of course I could just be reading too much into him.

[Kellhus]

About Joffrey:

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I think the key to understanding Joffrey's personality is in the 3rd book where you find out that he was the one who tried to kill Bran. And more importantly that he did it to try to please Robert. Also in the 3rd book I think is when Tywin asks where he got all the nonsense about how a king must be strong and Cersei says that was what Robert told him.

This ultimately is why Joffrey is so violent, he's desperate to live up to his father and he thinks that's how he would respond. All his talk about how rebels and traitors need to be killed are very similar to how Robert acted. When he chops Tyrions book into pieces that is him emulating how he saw Robert. But since Cersei raised him he's far more arrogant and far less likable than Robert. I mean while not many people think he's a great king almost everyone likes Robert because he's a pretty nice guy. Joffrey on the other hand is too far removed from reality to him everyone is his subject and they either obey him or they're a traitor who needs to be killed and they will be because he's the king and that's how it should work. He is the end product of all Cersei's and Roberts worst traits and that's alot of traits.

Of course I could just be reading too much into him.

I think Joffrey's just a bad person. His upbringing certainly didn't help and probably contributed to his feelings of entitlement, but there doesn't need to be a reason. He's a textbook psychopath.

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He vivisected a pregnant cat just to see what was inside. (Incidentally the only time Robert ever hit him)
Let's not forget that Tommen and Myrcella seem to be, for the most part, sweet, well-adjusted, normal children. They've had largely similar upbringings minus being constantly told they'd be King.

[hamlet]

I think Joffrey's just a bad person. His upbringing certainly didn't help and probably contributed to his feelings of entitlement, but there doesn't need to be a reason. He's a textbook psychopath.

Minor spoilers:

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He vivisected a pregnant cat just to see what was inside. (Incidentally the only time Robert ever hit him)
Let's not forget that Tommen and Myrcella seem to be, for the most part, sweet, well-adjusted, normal children. They've had largely similar upbringings minus being constantly told they'd be King.

Again, I've seen otherwise "normal" people do that kind of stuff in real life, and they're raising children and attending church regularly.

People are, in general, horrible things.

[TheSummoner]

No. A large campfire can get hot enough to melt aluminum. A bonfire can get up to 2200 degrees F, which is more than enough to melt gold.

You are factually incorrect.

You know... If you weren't being so... agressive is a good word... about this, I'd probably not care and just let the topic drop.

Show me your source. I'm not saying my information can't be wrong, but atleast I linked my sources back when this came up when that episode first aired. Show me where you're seeing that a wood fire can reach 2200 degrees F. Anyone can claim this sort of thing... Show me some proof.

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(Incidentally the only time Robert ever hit him)

As a cat lover, let me just say that this has made me absolutly LOVE Robert, and has, in my eyes, more than redeemed him for being a drunken, whore-loving ass.

[hamlet]

You know... If you weren't being so... agressive is a good word... about this, I'd probably not care and just let the topic drop.

Show me your source. I'm not saying my information can't be wrong, but atleast I linked my sources back when this came up when that episode first aired. Show me where you're seeing that a wood fire can reach 2200 degrees F. Anyone can claim this sort of thing... Show me some proof.

My source is a local chemist and physisist duo, which are kind of hard to link to.

However: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...6191614AAihl6R

Yer average campfire (for argument's sake, say, three feet across) can be gotten up to about 1000 degrees. As I said above, in the books, the fires were describes as being 10 feet tall, which says bonfire to me, which is hotter and certainly within the realm of possibility of melting gold.

Just so you're aware, I'm not just being a jerk about this. I've had this conversation about 12 different times in as many permutations now. Simply put, the description in the novel (NOT THE SHOW) is plausible if only just. The presentation in the show is, admittedly, idiotic. In the real world, you can get a large campfire/bonfire hot enough to soften gold to the point where it runs like thick mollasses,which is how it was describe in the text.

[Axolotl]

I think Joffrey's just a bad person. His upbringing certainly didn't help and probably contributed to his feelings of entitlement, but there doesn't need to be a reason. He's a textbook psychopath.

Minor spoilers:

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He vivisected a pregnant cat just to see what was inside. (Incidentally the only time Robert ever hit him)
Let's not forget that Tommen and Myrcella seem to be, for the most part, sweet, well-adjusted, normal children. They've had largely similar upbringings minus being constantly told they'd be King.

Yes he is a bad person and cruel and sadistic, which I'd attribute to Cersei trying to protect him and teach him everything she knew about politics (their actions when they have power are very similar).But I do think it's more than that

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After all he doesn't try and kill Bran out of any personal dislike but because he thinks it'll please Robert. The only big difference between him and Cersei is that he far more independant and headstrong, which is him trying to emulate the image he has of Robert.