[3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

[sreservoir]

You're crazy!

I like it.

but of course, isn't it wonderful!

... I have to say, though, it took altogether too much effort -- an hour or thereabouts, for a stick figure illustration. but a lot of that time was spent reading the tikz documentation (I've, uh, never programmed an illustration of vector stick figures before) and fiddling with the sinusoid fragments for the hats. those hats, dammit.

[Raineh Daze]

Hmm. The PDF is distinctly inaccessible for me. Is that something on its end or mine?

[Ernir]

Hmm. The PDF is distinctly inaccessible for me. Is that something on its end or mine?

Its end. Dunno what's going on over there. I can access the server directly, but it doesn't seem to like browser connections right now.

In the meantime, try this!
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19444168/Van...csBeta110c.pdf

[Larkas]

Hey, Ernir! I've been thinking, would you care to elaborate on your reasoning behind the SP totals of the classes in this system? Having a formula to figure out how to adapt a class not covered here would be nifty! That way, someone could privately convert other classes, specially those that share spell lists with the ones here (i.e.: the Favored Soul, the Spirit Shaman and the Sha'ir, not to mention the Ur-Priest, the Apostle of Peace, the Sublime Chord, etc.). I figured this out a few months back, but I reckon it would only work with WotC's original variant. Did you use any formulas to figure those out?

[Ernir]

Hey, Ernir! I've been thinking, would you care to elaborate on your reasoning behind the SP totals of the classes in this system? Having a formula to figure out how to adapt a class not covered here would be nifty! That way, someone could privately convert other classes, specially those that share spell lists with the ones here (i.e.: the Favored Soul, the Spirit Shaman and the Sha'ir, not to mention the Ur-Priest, the Apostle of Peace, the Sublime Chord, etc.). I figured this out a few months back, but I reckon it would only work with WotC's original variant. Did you use any formulas to figure those out?

Hmm, well, yes, I suppose there was a process to how the current SP totals developed.
If we look at the first alpha, the Wizard is almost a precise copy of the psion, including the point progression, ending up with 343 points. I thought that was a bit high, but I started out assuming that psionics did things right for the most part, so I didn't mess with it.

I *did* mess with it when it came to making a Sorcerer (starting in the first beta). I did want to give the Sorcerer more SP than the Wizard, but with the Wizard already having plenty, I came up with new base values for the classes. I decided to base them on simple polynomial equations, and scaled them so that the Wizard would end up with slightly fewer PP than the Psion, and the Sorcerer significantly more.
The equations are on page 12 of the most recent PDF (Under "The Spell Point Reserve" chapter).

In short, the Sor/Wiz/Cleric progressions follow quadratic equations whose coefficients I pulled out of thin air so they would approximately match the Psion progression. It has nothing to do with their original number of spell slots, and can't really be used to extrapolate others.

The Paladin/Ranger progression remains an unmodified PsyWar progression. The Bard got a custom progression, a quadratic equation scaled to fit between the PsyWar progression and the Wiz/Cleric progression.

[Larkas]

Eeep! Well, if you ever come around to formalize that a bit more, please, let us know!

[ZippoMoon]

Hey can you possibly squeeze in the Archivist class, which happens to be my favorite class to thruge with wizard? It's open source (link at the bottom) so it should be legal. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...051007a&page=3

[Larkas]

Just because it is freely available online doesn't mean that it is open source. It isn't part of the OGC.

[ZippoMoon]

Just because it is freely available online doesn't mean that it is open source. It isn't part of the OGC.

Really? Well...crap!

[Larkas]

Really? Well...crap!

I know, right?

[NineThePuma]

I would have to check but can't you just steal the Wizard, give him the Cleric's spell list and the Archivist's class features and call it a day?

[bobthe6th]

no, this uses domains like ardent mantels... so they aren't perfectly cross compatible like in normal vancian casting.

Though, a cloistered cleric is workable as an archivist. It loses out on the dark knowledge, but the domains make up for it.

I am interested in seeing a divine sorcerer. Though I guess that is kinda covered by clerics.

also, been playing a Cloistered cleric 2/illusionist 1 in a game... he is weird. Has a stupid amount of random utillaty, and little in combat usefulness(except the DM dosn't press casters with AOOs... so he can spam sleep). Still interesting to see what the system can do.

Random question, but will you be open to adding Homebrew prestige/base classes made/converted for this system?

[NineThePuma]

Maybe it would be easier for him to provide a translation system so that he doesn't have to?

[Ernir]

Hey can you possibly squeeze in the Archivist class, which happens to be my favorite class to thruge with wizard? It's open source (link at the bottom) so it should be legal. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...051007a&page=3

Just because it is freely available online doesn't mean that it is open source. It isn't part of the OGC.

Yup, pretty much what Larkas said.

Also, a class whose primary feature is "a really really flexible spellbook" is kind of hard to incorporate.

I might end up doing something relating to the concept, but it won't be called an Archivist, and it won't be quite the same.

I am interested in seeing a divine sorcerer. Though I guess that is kinda covered by clerics.

A cha-based 9th-level divine caster could be interesting. So far, my biggest design stumbling block has been to not have it stomp all over the Paladin.

will you be open to adding Homebrew prestige/base classes made/converted for this system?

One of the main things I have on my back burner (where it's been cooking for a while, this semester has been HELL ) is to restructure the document to make it easier to add such things without breaking the flow of updated SRD content too badly.

In other words, yes.

Maybe it would be easier for him to provide a translation system so that he doesn't have to?

I don't think so. If I thought there exists a good way to systematically convert material like that, I wouldn't have gone on the rewriting spree. =/

[Draz74]

One of the main things I have on my back burner (where it's been cooking for a while, this semester has been HELL ) is to restructure the document to make it easier to add such things without breaking the flow of updated SRD content too badly.

I think if you want your homebrew to continue its slow but viral spreading through the D&D community, it may be a wise idea (from a marketing perspective) to leave the main PDF covering mostly just classes/spell lists that were "Core" in D&D, and make a supplementary PDF for adaptations of non-Core or homebrew material.

Though it would be nice if the supplementary material was still hyperlinked to the spell descriptions from your Core book.

[Ernir]

I think if you want your homebrew to continue its slow but viral spreading through the D&D community, it may be a wise idea (from a marketing perspective) to leave the main PDF covering mostly just classes/spell lists that were "Core" in D&D, and make a supplementary PDF for adaptations of non-Core or homebrew material.

Though it would be nice if the supplementary material was still hyperlinked to the spell descriptions from your Core book.

I've been reluctant to split the document up so far due to me not knowing how to do cross-document hyperlinks. There seems to be some support for it in LaTeX, but yeah, so far no experience with it.

The structure I have on my computer right now is like so. I like thinking it's not in the way, but yes, I agree, never downloading the new content should optimally be entirely optional. I don't have any illusions about there being a similar demand for my original creations as there seems to be for this fix, or it being a good idea to promote my original work by forcibly strapping it on my more popular work.


EDIT: I am also thinking it might be time to just bite the damn bullet and write a d20srd.com-esque site.

[The Boz]

I love this.
I love this SO MUCH.
Ernir, sir, have an internet.

[Draz74]

EDIT: I am also thinking it might be time to just bite the damn bullet and write a d20srd.com-esque site.

That's what I eventually concluded about my own homebrew system. So yeah, I recommend Wikispaces if you aren't already an expert in some other type of website.

[Ernir]

I love this.
I love this SO MUCH.
Ernir, sir, have an internet.

Whoo! Thank you!

That's what I eventually concluded about my own homebrew system. So yeah, I recommend Wikispaces if you aren't already an expert in some other type of website.

Hmm, I'm hardly an expert in any kind of website creation. I can hack until it looks like it's created slightly after 1995, but yeah.

My problem with wikis and similar solutions (for a project of this scope) is mostly that the browser-based editors they provide are so very limited compared to what I've been spoiled with. Really, the biggest reason I still stick with LaTeX might be how easy it is to manage multiple documents (comes with any decent editor) and handle internal cross-references (provided by LaTeX, and not by plain HTML. ).

Let's see what I end up with.

I've been decently active for the last month or so (although not for the last week). Will probably recompile and publish soonish.


Also, heads up: I'm moving on from the university I've been studying/teaching at (at least for now), so the PDF host is moving on too sometime in the next year.

[Yora]

Ernir, how are you handling metamagic feats?

I am seriously considering dropping them completely, as most spells come with augmentation options for free, and Expanded knowledge to gain more spells known always seems a better feat than any metamagic feat could be.

[Ernir]

Ernir, how are you handling metamagic feats?

I am seriously considering dropping them completely, as most spells come with augmentation options for free, and Expanded knowledge to gain more spells known always seems a better feat than any metamagic feat could be.

They work like metapsionic feats. Increase spell point cost, usually by (comparable MM feat slot adjustment - 1)*2 and expend your focus. I translated the core metapsionic feats, splatbook metapsionic feats should be more or less directly applicable.

As for whether they are a good idea... I have been wondering if metamagic should have been done entirely within the spell system to begin with. A metamagic system does give more room to fiddle, but it's a kind of complicated approach.

[TuggyNE]

As for whether they are a good idea... I have been wondering if metamagic should have been done entirely within the spell system to begin with. A metamagic system does give more room to fiddle, but it's a kind of complicated approach.

How would you handle things like Transdimensional Spell or Burrowing Power without metamagic? Empower, Maximize, Energy Admixture, and similar things also seem useful and not entirely subsumed by standard augmentation.

[Draz74]

How would you handle things like Transdimensional Spell or Burrowing Power without metamagic? Empower, Maximize, Energy Admixture, and similar things also seem useful and not entirely subsumed by standard augmentation.

On the contrary, Empower and Maximize seem exactly like the kind of metamagic that becomes superfluous in a system with augmentable spells. (They're notably not very popular metapsionic feats.)

But I think there's other effects (possibly including Burrowing or Energy Admixture) that are oddball enough that not every caster should be able to add them to a spell just by pumping more power into it, which are therefore good candidates for metamagic in this system.

[TuggyNE]

On the contrary, Empower and Maximize seem exactly like the kind of metamagic that becomes superfluous in a system with augmentable spells. (They're notably not very popular metapsionic feats.)

I don't know how popular they are, since I've never built a blasting psion, but there's enough of a difference between augmenting to full ML and Empowering or Maximizing that at high ML, the feats give an advantage. I forget how much it is though.

But I think there's other effects (possibly including Burrowing or Energy Admixture) that are oddball enough that not every caster should be able to add them to a spell just by pumping more power into it, which are therefore good candidates for metamagic in this system.

Yeah. Chain, Delay, Twin, Split Ray, and maybe Unconditional are other interesting effects.

[Ernir]

How would you handle things like Transdimensional Spell or Burrowing Power without metamagic? Empower, Maximize, Energy Admixture, and similar things also seem useful and not entirely subsumed by standard augmentation.

Mmm, that is something that would be largely lost.

Perhaps what we really need is just a definition of what belongs in an augment and what belongs in a feat.

there's enough of a difference between augmenting to full ML and Empowering or Maximizing that at high ML, the feats give an advantage. I forget how much it is though.

I've done some math on it. The feats are... kind of crap. I actually included one table on it next to the Maximize feat in the PDF.

[TuggyNE]

Mmm, that is something that would be largely lost.

Perhaps what we really need is just a definition of what belongs in an augment and what belongs in a feat.

Yeah, the trick is, I think, that feats should have unusual but widely applicable tricks that can be safely applied to any spell/power that qualifies, while augments should include the basic functionality and some tweaks and customizations. You shouldn't need metamagic to make decent use of spells, but it should make things noticeably better.

I've done some math on it. The feats are... kind of crap. I actually included one table on it next to the Maximize feat in the PDF.

I think that's what I'm remembering, actually.

[Ernir]

Looks like I have lost write permissions to the Uni server already.
But Beta 1.11 is done anyway, and up on the "backup server"! (linky)

I think the most immediately noticeable change is just the way the document is structured. This is what the changes look like:

(Note: the one on the right is more expanded)

"New Spellcasting Classes" also contains a new spellcasting class, which I think is now fiiiinally ready for prime time. The Spellbreaker. And yes, Warcraft 3 was the inspiration.

Also a new domain. A player in a game I am playing in (whoo!) wanted to play a priest of the money god. Also moved the Moon domain and some assorted doodads I have made over to that section, to maintain as much core purity in the main part of the PDF as I can.

[Ernir]

It's been almost a year. Who thought I had given up on this?

Well, I didn't. Not yet.

For this tiny little update, I mostly have a few new old spells. I also finally decided to ship the Wild Ranger, it's not getting any better here on my drives.

Those who have been following very closely (hah!) may have noticed that the version history wasn't online there for a few months, and that the "current version" just linked to a public Dropbox file.

Well, the current version can be found here now. Those who wish to see the old versions can do so on this webpage. Even if I have to switch servers some day (this is hosted on a VPS), I sincerely hope the URL will stay the same for a bit.

[Eldest]

It's been almost a year. Who thought I had given up on this?

*waves* I did! Or at least I thought you were done.

By the way I've been paying attention to this the entire time and I think this is the first time actually posting here so I like the work.

[Adam1949]

It's been almost a year. Who thought I had given up on this?

Well, I didn't. Not yet.

For this tiny little update, I mostly have a few new old spells. I also finally decided to ship the Wild Ranger, it's not getting any better here on my drives.

Those who have been following very closely (hah!) may have noticed that the version history wasn't online there for a few months, and that the "current version" just linked to a public Dropbox file.

I've been following! I really love your work, it's been such a help teaching some of my friends how to play d20. You see, a couple of them are only familiar with RPG games if they're on a console, and thus they're used to an MP bar or other such method. This has helped me immensely in getting them comfortable with magic in 3.X. Thank you so much!

My question is, does this port over to Pathfinder well? Or would it need a bit of work in order to do that?