ninja spy help please

[hivedragon]

I love this class, from oriental adventures. Can I have some help building one?

[Cog]

The more you offer, the more you can get out of a thread. The basics: what sources do you have available? How much optimization are you looking for? What are you party members going to be? Any houserules we need to be aware of? Starting level?

[hivedragon]

what sources do you have available?

I plan to buy all of them so feel free to use anything.
but just for your information
I have PHB 1+2, half the completes, tome of battle and almost all the eberron books.

How much optimization are you looking for?

If I wanted to be optimized I would play a full caster or something from tome of battle, however I want to be the best ninja spy I can be.

What are you party members going to be? Any houserules we need to be aware of? Starting level?

Don't know. Don't know. And Don't know. But its good to plan ahead so please build as if I were to start as if I were level 20.

[nedz]

The more you offer, the more you can get out of a thread.

All too true, unfortunately Ninja doesn't offer a lot.
How about you take the fluff you like about Ninja but use a different class to achieve your goal ?
Would that be good ? Or is your character concept class-centric ?

[Bang!]

Short of other information, I suspect that Rogue 3/Swordsage 4 is going to be your best bet, taking the Able Learner feat (from Races of Destiny) and the Penetrating Strike ACF (from Dungeonscape and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft). After that, it would just be a matter of adjusting proportions of Ninja Spy and Swordsage to taste.

[hivedragon]

I want to make sure that everyone understands I don't intend on playing the ninja from complete adventurer I want to play the ninja spy from oriental adventures. Also I don't want to take any levels in swordsage however I might take feats from tome of battle.

Also I made a list detailing most of my book collection
Dungeon Master’s Guide 1
Dungeon Master’s Guide 2
Player’s Handbook 1
Player’s Handbook 2
Unearthed Arcana
Expanded Psionic Handbook
Spell Compendium
Magic Item Compendium
Arms and Equipment guide
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Warrior
Oriental Adventures
Magic of Incarnum
Tome of Magic
Tome of Battle
Races of Eberron
Races of Faerun
Races of Destiny
Races of Stone
Races of Wild
Magic of Eberron
Magic of Faerun
Eberron Campaign Setting
Five Nations
Faiths of Eberron
Dragons of Eberron
Dragon Marked
Secrets of Sarlona
Sharn City of Towers
Savage Species
Monster Manual 1
Monster Manual 2
Monster Manual 3
monsters of faerun
Fiend Folio
Lords of Madness
Libris Mortis
Serpent Kingdoms
Elder Evils
Cityscape
Dungeonscape
Sand Storm
Storm Wreck

Also does the bonus from the ninja spy's thousand faces stack with the changelings minor shape-change ability?

[Cog]

Given the skill requirements, Rogue is the obvious way in. Ninja Spy doesn't have much to hook a build on, though. The exotic weapons can give you access to spiked chain for its usual benefits, while Alter Self at will gives you plenty of utility with access to abilities such as flight (the disguise bonus would stack, since it's an unnamed bonus). Tome of Battle could have made some use out of the acrobatics bonuses, but feats only wouldn't do much for that.

Factotum could make a reasonable entry as well. It's a good tripper for taking advantage of spiked chain, and alter self can potentially get you large size depending on your starting race. Factotum 8/Ninja Spy 8 at most; the last two levels don't do much for you. For the last four/five levels, back to Factotum is probably best, though if you're a changeling Warshaper might not be bad (Alter Self alone isn't enough to trigger the class abilities).

If you can get Champions of Ruin, Craven is a good feat for adding to those scant few d6s of sneak attack you already have. Factotum can get you iaijutsu as well, which is less "cheesy" (I don't think it is in the first place, but some disagree) since you're already using OA anyway.

[Doc Roc]

He... doessss have access to blade of orien, which would get us shadow pounce. And, as fax recently reminded me, Silver Key is accessible at ECL 2, where it's SLAs and SUs are quite relevant. I prefer factotum, but SK is an option potentially.

[Cog]

He... doessss have access to blade of orien, which would get us shadow pounce.

Not until level 10 of BoO, so as much as I like that class, it's hard to call it a Ninja Spy build at that point.

[Doc Roc]

Not until level 10 of BoO, so as much as I like that class, it's hard to call it a Ninja Spy build at that point.

:: Struggles to look innocent ::

[true_shinken]

All too true, unfortunately Ninja doesn't offer a lot.
How about you take the fluff you like about Ninja but use a different class to achieve your goal ?
Would that be good ? Or is your character concept class-centric ?

What?! Ninja Spy is a pretty cool class.

[Curmudgeon]

As Cog pointed out, Rogue is the most straightforward entry. You'll want the most sneak attack before you slow down the progression in Ninja Spy. You could instead go Rogue 5/Assassin 2 and pick up a couple of spells, and take the Disruptive Attack ACF (Player's Handbook II, page 57) to trade Rogue uncanny dodge for the ability to sacrifice your sneak attack to give flanked/flat-footed foes -5 to AC.

[Zaq]

He... doessss have access to blade of orien, which would get us shadow pounce. And, as fax recently reminded me, Silver Key is accessible at ECL 2, where it's SLAs and SUs are quite relevant. I prefer factotum, but SK is an option potentially.

How do you get Trap Sense at ECL 1?

[Doc Roc]

How do you get Trap Sense at ECL 1?

Believe there's a domain that'll get you it.

[true_shinken]

Believe there's a domain that'll get you it.

Kobold gets trapfinding. Other than that, I'm drawing a blank here.

[Curmudgeon]

To the best of my knowledge, trap sense is only available as a class feature.

[Zaq]

Man. And here I was all excited thinking that I could get up to level 5 Silver Key in my E6 game. Shoot.

I wonder if there are any weird ACFs or organizations that give you TS early? Unlikely, of course, but hey, I've heard of weirder.

[Greenish]

What?! Ninja Spy is a pretty cool class.

Seconded. I love those acrobatics.

As for entry, rogue should form a solid base, like others have pointed out, and short dips to swordsage will give you a bunch of fancy tricks without compromising your ninja-ness. Simple rogue6/swordsage1 works as an entrance, then after picking up HiPS from ninja-spy you could take another dip into swordsage for a stance.

If your DM doesn't enforce multiclassing restrictions, and you want to get some more mileage out of your build, you could take a level of Sneak Attack (UA) Hit and Run Tactics (DotU) fighter after rogue 5, before the swordsage level.

[Edit]: Missed that "no swordsage levels".

[true_shinken]

Consider something like Rogue 6/Dread Pirate 1 into Ninja Spy. All you really get from Dread Pirate is free TWF... but you're now a Ninja Pirate. Really, it's in your character sheet. Anytime you fail a save or someone hits you, you can just smirk at your DM and go "Hell no. I'm a ninja pirate."

In all seriousness, though, as long as you have a few Rogue levels, you can do mostly anything before going into Ninja Spy.
Try using Midnight Dodge (at least it gives you essentia) or Expeditious Dodge if you can. If your DM accepts Swashbuckler dodge as the feat (it doesn't work by RAW, but it has the same effect) a Daring Outlaw entry would be most interesting.

Also, check if your DM if he would allow your Leap of the Clouds class ability to work as the Leap of Heavens feat (PHB II), since Leap of the Clouds does nothing under 3.5 rules.

[Doc Roc]

Consider something like Rogue 6/Dread Pirate 1 into Ninja Spy. All you really get from Dread Pirate is free TWF... but you're now a Ninja Pirate. Really, it's in your character sheet. Anytime you fail a save or someone hits you, you can just smirk at your DM and go "Hell no. I'm a ninja pirate."

In all seriousness, though, as long as you have a few Rogue levels, you can do mostly anything before going into Ninja Spy.
Try using Midnight Dodge (at least it gives you essentia) or Expeditious Dodge if you can. If your DM accepts Swashbuckler dodge as the feat (it doesn't work by RAW, but it has the same effect) a Daring Outlaw entry would be most interesting.

Also, check if your DM if he would allow your Leap of the Clouds class ability to work as the Leap of Heavens feat (PHB II), since Leap of the Clouds does nothing under 3.5 rules.

I think factotum is a superior option, at factotum 8/NSpy K. Honestly though, the problem is that factotum levels are just better than NSpy levels from what I can tell. Someone talk me around?

[Cog]

Why should we? You're right.

[true_shinken]

I think factotum is a superior option, at factotum 8/NSpy K. Honestly though, the problem is that factotum levels are just better than NSpy levels from what I can tell. Someone talk me around?

Factotum 8 + Ninja Spy suffers because it has no awesome standard action attacks to spam. It simply doesn't mesh well. You could do a lot of better things with a Factotum, so I find this a very bad option, since the OP specifically wants a Ninja Spy.

EDIT: Also, I though Factotum wouldn't qualify. It doesn't have evasion, does it?

[Cog]

Factotum offers trips for battlefield control and skillmonkey synergy. The extra standard action isn't much, but you can use it to effectively quicken an Alter Self before combat to switch from, say, your medium flying form to your large combat form or whatever's appropriate for the situation. As for qualifying, they get the Evasion (Comma Ring of) ability.

(No, I didn't forget about evasion when I suggested Factotum. Why do you ask?)

[Daftendirekt]

Isn't there an armor property somewhere that gives you Evasion? Or maybe a ring? I swear there is, just dunno where.

EDIT: Yeah. Duh. A ring. In the DMG. 25,000 gp though :\

[Curmudgeon]

(No, I didn't forget about evasion when I suggested Factotum. Why do you ask?)

Isn't there an armor property somewhere that gives you Evasion? Or maybe a ring? ...

EDIT: Yeah. Duh. A ring. In the DMG. 25,000 gp though

REQUIREMENTS
To qualify as a ninja spy, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
Special: Evasion class ability

How is a ring on your finger going to qualify as a class ability?

[Daftendirekt]

3.5 item, 3.0 class. LOTS of stuff doesn't like up perfectly. STFU.

[nedz]

What?! Ninja Spy is a pretty cool class.

I thought he meant the other ninja

[Cog]

...class ability?

...Artificer?

Bleh. Rogue it is, then. Ninja Spy doesn't even get Iaijutsu Focus itself, so using Factotum for that doesn't make much sense either unless you blow a feat on Able Learner.