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2011-05-05, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
On a slightly related note to the previous discussion, what does the playground think of implementing a 1 wp surcharge on all perfect defenses?
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2011-05-05, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
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2011-05-05, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2011-05-05, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
It would've pretty much changed the outcome of the Primordial War, that's for certain. Seeing how the Primordials have twice the Willpower that an Exalt can achieve, and how they have no need for Combos, they're going to be paying less Willpower to survive, and seeing how they have a thousand motes, they can invest a stupid amount of fatality-inducing craziness on an attack against the opposition the second his defenses wear out.
Solar Bob: "I charge the Primordial!"
ST: "He perfects. On his action, he flurries you for ten attacks."
Solar Bob:Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-05-05 at 10:34 PM.
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2011-05-05, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
I still remain unconvinced that Exalted combat is Perfect or Die, especially when using 2 relatively simple houserules (armorium, free Ox Body = Stam) See past 2 pages. Very lethal, yes, but there are plenty of non-perfect defensive charms.
IMO one should only want to use perfects when the opponent whips out their tactical nuke combo, or someone chucks a lighting balista at you.
Well, Assume that essence 5 or 6 has a permanent upgrade charm which removes the wp cost then.Last edited by Tael; 2011-05-05 at 10:47 PM.
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2011-05-05, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Exalted combat doesn't /have/ to be perfect or die, just it is remarkably easy to get to that point with minimal optimization.
BEEP.
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2011-05-05, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Why? The Exalted had to be of sufficient strength to be able to stand against the Primordials right out of the box; if it had taken months or years or mortal lifetimes to be able to actually survive battle with a Primordial, then the first generation would've been wiped out, and then the entirety of humanity put to the sword to prevent them from re-emerging.
Even assuming the gods kept their champions a secret for 100 years to get them all to elder Essence before releasing them to make war on the Primordials, any casualties suffered are effectively irreplaceable, due to the amount of time it takes to train one before it can stand against a Primordial again (and casualties did occur).
Also, that just makes the game a race to Essence 5-6. Moreso than it is already, I mean.Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-05-05 at 10:53 PM.
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2011-05-05, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-05-05, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Actually, there was a pretty big span of time between the Exalted being created and the beginning of the Primordial War. The Maidens actually told the Primordials about the Sidereals, and they didn't have a problem with it.
It's perfectly reasonable to assume the Exalted trained up for a nice long while beforehand.5e D&D Mythos Classes
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2011-05-05, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
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2011-05-05, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- The Elemental Pole of Oil
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2011-05-05, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
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2011-05-05, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Now, if you intend to convince me my opinion is wrong, you offer a counterpoint, because currently, I don't find your argument all that convincing. If not, then I suppose the logical step is to agree to disagree. I'm okay with that if you are, but it almost certainly means we'll never game together.
After all, it's my opinion that any stripe of the Exalted shouldn't have to sit around and train before they can be awesome. It seems from your posts that you think differently. That's certainly a big enough stylistic rift that any attempts at gaming together would be problematic.Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-05-05 at 11:13 PM.
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2011-05-05, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
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2011-05-05, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
My apologies, then. I agree that it's not unreasonable that they may well have trained the first generation of Exalts; I was disagreeing with the idea that it should have been necessary (which, admittedly, you didn't argue), and that they were trained long enough to achieve elder Essence (and also admittedly, I'd forgotten about the Endowment Charm, but it still doesn't sit well with me).
Since all you said was, "I disagree," it was extremely unclear on which part of my argument you were actually disagreeing with. So, yeah, I interpreted it that you were disagreeing with all of it.
Again, sorry.
EDIT: On a somewhat-related note, where did it say that, about the Sidereals being known about by the Primordials?Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-05-05 at 11:50 PM.
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2011-05-06, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
I don't recall exactly. Something about the Maidens presenting the Sidereals as their servants to help in the operation of the Loom, and the Primordials taking a liking to them, and showering them with gifts and so forth, right up until their inevitable betrayal.
Maybe Ink Monkeys? Dreams of the First Age? Glories:Maidens? Compass:Malfeas? I'm not sure.5e D&D Mythos Classes
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2011-05-06, 12:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Avatar by Elagune
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2011-05-06, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
This. Exalted combat in my experience has worked just fine with my players.
They weren't just sitting around training, they were raising armies, building artifacts, and probably fighting off the Wyld.
I don't think fresh Exalts should be able to beat up the Primordials. I think that seriously detracts from the dramatic capability of the system. Characters need growth.
It's in the first chapter of the Sidereals book, IIRC, right near the start.
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2011-05-06, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Having just found it, I can attest that yeah, nothing was said about gifts.
Why would they do that? It's not like they had some urgent need to do so. Back then, the separation between Wyld and Creation was much more distinct. Any sort of obvious activity on their part (like raising armies and fighting in the Wyld) increases the likelihood of the "surprise" being spoiled.
Why? It's not about the Primordials - it hasn't been about the Primordials for a long, long time. Besides, we're talking a unified army of Exalts here; even having been Chosen for one day, there's very little they shouldn't be able to stand against.
And they can have their growth. It was after the Primordial War that they started inventing all the really crazy Charms, after all.
On the one hand, it says it's Sidereal lore, and like all history kept by one particular stripe of Exalt, it's very tainted in their favor. It's unlikely that anyone could definitively give you answers in that respect.Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 2011-05-06 at 12:48 AM.
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2011-05-06, 01:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Arbitrary is hard.
Will excessive do?
Essence 3 (10 bp)
Ring 4, Sword 2 (2 spare virtue points to spend)
Str 7, Dex 7, Sta 5 (physical favored)
Martial Arts / Melee 7
Artifact 5 (4 bp)
Retinue 1
Birth 3
Gossamer 3
Charms:
Fantastic Grotesquerie Shell - granting Gargantuan for +4 Str / Sta and bonus health levels.
Glorious Hero Form twice - gives +1 to all Physical Attributes
Translucent Dream Sheathing Technology (requires 3 charms)
3 free charms
Assumption Charm of your choice. If you take Bestial Form and get something that will increase your Strength or Dex (you have 5 mutation points), do so.
The Hungry Maw: a massive shape composed of fangs, claws, and endless appetite, the Maw is not so much controlled as pointed towards those its handler wishes to see consumed. The incidental destruction of landscape and obstacles is viewed as a benefit.
5-dot Behemoth
Assumption of Bestial Form (1) - grants 5 points of mutations
Gargantuan (6) - +4 strength and Sta, bonus health levels
Knife Hand Dream (2) - +5 to damage, Aggravated damage, parry lethal
Armament of Flesh (2) + 4 to damage, +1 Accuracy
Glorious Hero Form (4) - +1 to Str, Dex, and Sta
Surpassing Excellence (1) +2 with natural weapon
Hundred Hand Style (2) +2 rate
The Maw's natural weapon does damage as an attuned 3- or 4- dot artifact weapon, with the bonuses above, net weapon outcome is:
+14 Aggravated damage, +4 Accuracy, +3 Defense, +2 Rate
The Pendant of Claws A minor bit of magic, the Pendant enhances the natural attacks of its wearer, impossible to evade.
1-dot Outward Facing Oneiromancy
Assumption of Bestial Form (1) (a claw)
World Angering Bestial Mastery (3): -5 external penalty to Dex+Dodge against the bearer of the Pendant.
World Angering Bestial Mastery (3): -5 external penalty to Dex+Melee against the bearer of the Pendant.
World Angering Bestial Mastery (3): -5 external penalty to Dex+Martial Arts against the bearer of the Pendant.
Bears a Translucent Dream Sheathing Technology such that the blows struck by its bearer cannot be avoided - effect negated by spending 1 wp. Targets then get a -4 internal penalty to avoiding blows, while the attacker gets +1 wyld die to attacks.
The bloody Gash: a wound that never quite closes, this piece of Fair Folk magic spurs its bearer to ever greater skill with their natural weapons, and ensures that those nearby will not pose a threat to it.
1-dot Outward Facing Oneiromancy
Assumption of the Person's Heart (1) (bleeding wound)
King of Beasts Method (3): +3 dice to Dex+Natural Weapons actions
Heart Stealing Kiss (3): damages the willpower of the first person hit in a scene, stores motes (which are not used).
Bestial Transformation (3): turns foes struck in combat into blind slugs, with the Blindness mutation combined with Dex and Sta Atrophy (lose 1 dot of each).
Bears a Translucent Dream Sheathing Technology making the bearer impossible to hit. Opponents can negate this with 1 wp, then need to use stunts of charms anyway, operating at -4 internal penalty to hit while the bearer gets +1 wyld die to defend.
So attacks by the Maw do +26 Aggravated damage on top of the base weapon, rolling 23 dice to attack (+ weapon accuracy). Opponents have an effective -5 to their DV and a -4 internal penalty, meaning that the attacker will score a lot of successes. Rate is enhanced enough to permit flurries, and once you connect your foe is blind, may have less DV and soak (due to lost Dex and Sta), and re-establishing surprise on a blind foe shouldn't be too hard. Plus, for combat to be joined, each foe must spend 2 wp, and their odds of hitting you are... low.
If you feel vicious, replace the Atrophies with Deafness, to ensure surprise.
You have committed 18 (out of 30) motes to this setup, and even if your behemoth gets killed, you're not there to take the hit. You have 1 lorekeeper who is committing the motes for the Gash. If you want to commit to it instead, you can inflict another 2 mutation points on your foes.
You still have 8 dots of artifacts. Such as Oneiromancies to further boost your behemoth, or whatever you like.
To get terminal velocity, just do the wolfman-and-bone trick. Except this time you're not tied to the bone, and the bone is your enemy. They get tossed 1 mile, straight up - taking no damage on the way there.
The trip back, on the other hand...
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2011-05-06, 01:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-05-06, 03:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Usaki City, Syona
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
Homebrew Signature | NEW Homebrew Collection
Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
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2011-05-06, 06:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Mechanics do not exactly pan this out, though. Seriously, an Exalt without some experience under his belt (for some paranoia and keyword defenses) is seriously fragile and vulnerable. Chargen exalts aren't invulnerable - hell, they aren't even particularly impressive, and can die easily to mortals with bows. And there must have been like ten times the number of demons than there were Exalts at the absolute least (I seem to remember a figure of ten thousand Dragonblooded. There are tens of thousands of First Circles just descended from Malfeas!), most of them with a bit of actual experience and such.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the gods must have put the Exalts through some severe accelerated training and Endowment-spam to get them into shape as fast as possible. Besides, had to have something to spend the time on while the Mountain Folk built those caches of weapons and uber-artifacts.Last edited by Drascin; 2011-05-06 at 06:21 AM.
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2011-05-06, 06:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- The Land of Angles
Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
The Primordials didn't have demons until after the Primordial War.
Before that they were devas. And they didn't have that many first-circle devas, because... seriously, they had all these other servant beings.
Plus, there's not much difference between first-circle devas and lesser gods.
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2011-05-06, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
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- Finland
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
"Best na ta challenge that Delusion" - Durkon in #674
Fairy avatar made by araveugnitsuga.
Cultist avatar made by Darwin.
Paladin avatar made by Ceika.
I have started a fantasy webseries about a trans woman wanting to become a paladin:
http://kirjotusvihe.deviantart.com/gallery/47065120
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Paladin-Story
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2011-05-06, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
The Primordial War was fought, at least in the beginning, by mostly Essence 2 Exalted. The 3SC and time-distortion weaponry make it impossible to tell exactly how long it lasted, but we know it lasted centuries. Plenty of time for Exalted to grow. People also forget that almost the entire Exalted host died multiple times during the War. It was a war where a circle of Solars assault a fetich and die trying, where Dragon-Blood die by the score, where the gods needed instruments to pull Exaltations out of the shattered, twisted carcasses of their champions. And they weren't fighting the Primordials at their full might (see: the Chungian Primordial).
One of the things that irks me the most about the Exalted fandom is the tendency to portray things as easy. That removes all tension from the game. Epic deeds are epic because they are difficult.
Do some basic math about the Primordial War. There were at least 36 Primordials fighting. If they all have 10 souls (they have more), there are 360 3rd circle devas the Exalted had to fight, each with seven subsidary souls, for 2520 2nd circle souls.
This was not an easy war.Awesome Cyborg Doom Monkey avatar by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins. Offer up your robo-bananas to him.
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2011-05-06, 07:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Didn't Exaltations just fly out and find a new host? I was under the impression that if you dissect a living Exalt, you couldn't find a physical Exaltation in them.
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2011-05-06, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Usually, yes. In the War, though, the Primordials started hitting the Exalted with weaponry that would crush their souls. This didn't destroy the Exaltations (nothing can do that), but it could trap them in their current host.
It's implied that it was rare and horrifying, but Autochthon made a tool to deal with it, so it happened.Awesome Cyborg Doom Monkey avatar by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins. Offer up your robo-bananas to him.
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2011-05-06, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
That's pretty awesome.
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2011-05-06, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Should I make a new thread to discuss potential nerfs to existing charms, or just post my ideas/opinions here?