General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[Qaera]

There is a homebrew knack for red moon princesses. Lemme look.

Ayup.

Cool, can you post the text? Phone redirects to Wikipe-chan with the WW wiki for some reason.

[Yuki Akuma]

Hmm. A sudden thought struck me while looking at how Alchemical charms and combos function.

The Fourth Attribute Augmentation adds dots to an attribute. These are actual, permanent dots that count for all purposes except the XP cost for increasing your attribute rating. It can be used to qualify for charms and submodules, considering there is a submodule that requires Strength 7 and Essence 3...

Arrays are special... arrays of charms that must all be installed together.

Now, a hypothetical situation: an Alchemical has an array containing the Fourth Dexterity Augmentation and a charm that requires Dexterity 5. Natively, he only has Dexterity 4, and uses the Fourth Dexterity Augmentation to qualify for the charm.

Can he install the array without meeting the qualifications for the Dexterity 5 charm, because when he installs the array he'll have Dexterity 5? Or is he unable to install it at all because he only has Dexterity 4?

[Drascin]

Curse Portal 2. I am trying to come up with a cool robot concept for an Alchemical and my mind keeps getting sidetracked by Atlas, P-Body, and GLaDOS .

Now, a hypothetical situation: an Alchemical has an array containing the Fourth Dexterity Augmentation and a charm that requires Dexterity 5. Natively, he only has Dexterity 4, and uses the Fourth Dexterity Augmentation to qualify for the charm.

Can he install the array without meeting the qualifications for the Dexterity 5 charm, because when he installs the array he'll have Dexterity 5? Or is he unable to install it at all because he only has Dexterity 4?

I'm not sure how it is by RAW - but most STs I have met allow that kind of thing, and it seems common agreement is that it's valid. This allows a person to, say, put one of those couple Attribute 6 Charms in the manual in an Array.

[Indon]

Pretty sure the only way for Lunars to learn Yozi charms is to get Akuma'd - only Solaroids can learn Yozi charms without selling their soul.

Of course if Lunar Exaltations got all corrupted by the Yozis that might change.

And they already have knacks that let them turn into demons.

So they can transform into demons. Can they transform into behemoths?

Because from those points, it's not far from developing a knack to shapeshift in some way into a Primordial - which, I imagine, might give you some sort of access to Primordial charms.

Edit:

Now, a hypothetical situation: an Alchemical has an array containing the Fourth Dexterity Augmentation and a charm that requires Dexterity 5. Natively, he only has Dexterity 4, and uses the Fourth Dexterity Augmentation to qualify for the charm.

Can he install the array without meeting the qualifications for the Dexterity 5 charm, because when he installs the array he'll have Dexterity 5? Or is he unable to install it at all because he only has Dexterity 4?

Since they're at a vat complex, the array can just bootstrapped by temporarily installing a second, unarrayed Fourth Augmentation charm, then popping it out once the array's in.

[Yuki Akuma]

So they can transform into demons. Can they transform into behemoths?

Pretty sure they can.

Because from those points, it's not far from developing a knack to shapeshift in some way into a Primordial - which, I imagine, might give you some sort of access to Primordial charms.

Shapeshifting into a demon doesn't give you its charms, so I don't know why shapeshifting into a Primordial would.

[Indon]

Shapeshifting into a demon doesn't give you its charms, so I don't know why shapeshifting into a Primordial would.

Because Primordials are unique beings and their shapeshifting would presumably be weird to match.

Also, sorry for the Siderealing. Didn't think anyone'd respond that fast.

[Yuki Akuma]

Since they're at a vat complex, the array can just bootstrapped by temporarily installing a second, unarrayed Fourth Augmentation charm, then popping it out once the array's in.

That would require them to spend 6 more xp on another copy of the Fourth Augmentation, though.

Of course having two copies isn't a bad thing, but what if they're strapped for xp?

[Indon]

That would require them to spend 6 more xp on another copy of the Fourth Augmentation, though.

Of course having two copies isn't a bad thing, but what if they're strapped for xp?

It wouldn't be a permanent installation, only plugged in for the purposes of booting the array - if arrays have XP costs attached, then I'd at least rule that it's just part of the array installation procedure. If they don't, then maybe a 1 XP surcharge for the array to reflect the unusual boot sequence requirement.

[Yuki Akuma]

So what if it's a temporary installation? They'd still need to own a second copy of the charm - so it'd still cost them an extra 6 xp.

And yes, arrays cost xp - they're combos.

[Tavar]

((Also, I will note that Harmonious Jade never wears that much in any of her artwork either.))

Not true. Page 142 of the core book has her in that exact same outfit.

I haven't read the enormous homebrew MoEP: Nocturnals, but I think it could be used for hell-Sids since they apparently have a theme of defying fate and doing the impossible.

Isn't that based off Nox, the other Incarnae?

[IcarusWings]

Isn't that based off Nox, the other Incarnae?

Yeah, and it's awesome. However, they do often fulfill the role of anti-Sids, since they are all about the themes of infinite possibility and defying fate.

[Kylarra]

That does sound interesting. I think I'll read it when I have free time. (AHAHAHAHAHA free time)

[Ganurath]

Not true. Page 142 of the core book has her in that exact same outfit.

It also has her wielding a daiklave against Dace.

[Lix Lorn]

Shapeshifting into a demon doesn't give you its charms, so I don't know why shapeshifting into a Primordial would.

Hmm. Interesting case though.
Essential Mirror Form lets you use the charms of one thing you can shapeshift into, but specifies NOT exalted charms. So you can't get yozi charms by shifting into an Infernal... but are they still considered exalted charms if you get them from a yozi?
...TBH, if you have the Essence 10 needed for a Primordial knack, it really doesn't matter WHAT shenanigans you can do.

[Drascin]

Hmm. Interesting case though.
Essential Mirror Form lets you use the charms of one thing you can shapeshift into, but specifies NOT exalted charms. So you can't get yozi charms by shifting into an Infernal... but are they still considered exalted charms if you get them from a yozi?
...TBH, if you have the Essence 10 needed for a Primordial knack, it really doesn't matter WHAT shenanigans you can do.

Pretty much. Honestly, the difference between a ST saying "can't be done" and "Essence 10 knack" is pretty much academical. In either case, it's a "players no touchy ever" declaration

[Lix Lorn]

That's my point. xD Unless a game STARTS at E10, it's not going there.

[jindra34]

Hmm. Interesting case though.
Essential Mirror Form lets you use the charms of one thing you can shapeshift into, but specifies NOT exalted charms. So you can't get yozi charms by shifting into an Infernal... but are they still considered exalted charms if you get them from a yozi?
...TBH, if you have the Essence 10 needed for a Primordial knack, it really doesn't matter WHAT shenanigans you can do.

Yozi, Neverborn and other Primordial charms are specified as equivalent to Exalted Charms for Essential Mirror Form. So no not even becoming the Yozi itself will allow you to pickup its charms.

[Lix Lorn]

Ah. It's said so? XD

[Drascin]

That's my point. xD Unless a game STARTS at E10, it's not going there.

Yeah, I know, I was just agreeing (plus, hard to disagree with Millie. I like my physical integrity ).

In fact, I honestly tend to take the view that not very few games actually reach so much as Elder Essence. It's why I have never tried to actually put to paper that SMA about Hope I had vaguely bouncing in my head - SMAs always end up going to big Essence, and bothering to do a writeup on a style I'm never going to be able to use in full seemed a tad silly.

[jindra34]

Ah. It's said so? XD

Errata added that clause.

[Indon]

In fact, I honestly tend to take the view that not very few games actually reach so much as Elder Essence. It's why I have never tried to actually put to paper that SMA about Hope I had vaguely bouncing in my head - SMAs always end up going to big Essence, and bothering to do a writeup on a style I'm never going to be able to use in full seemed a tad silly.

This is why I changed the 6+ Essence rules from strict age limitations to "Quest required" requirements which are unique between any given Exalt - more storytelling and faster PC Essence gain without necessarily affecting NPC Essence gain, 'cause I can just say that the quest requirements average out to the age requirements and the PC's are exceptional.

Also, more interesting possibilities involving powerful Solar/Abyssal/Infernal(/DB for other reasons) opponents pop up.

Even then, the only time I ran a game long enough for it to come up, the only character who got really involved in seeking Essence 6 was the group's Terrestrial.

[Qaera]

Hey guys, is this any fun?

Spoiler

Show

[Xefas]

Hey guys, is this any fun?

From what I've gathered, it's in the same genre of billion-hour pre-existing-IP board games, such as the Battlestar Galactica, Lord of the Rings, and Order of the Stick boardgames.

Boardgamegeek has it rated at 6.24.

My suggestion would be to promise a friend that if they buy it, you'll play it like all the time, and then just play it once for the novelty and never look back . Any other time that you have that many people and that much time on your hands, play a tabletop RPG, or if you're actually a board game enthusiast, something like Puerto Rico or T&E.

[TheCountAlucard]

My suggestion would be to promise a friend that if they buy it, you'll play it like all the time, and then just play it once for the novelty and never look back.

Just like the War for the Throne game they put out! If I wanted to play an Exalted-themed RISK, I would play RISK and fluff it like it was Exalted. And no, I didn't appreciate the ST deciding that the outcome of the boardgame would be "canon" for his game...

[Kylarra]

Just like the War for the Throne game they put out!

Just waiting for him to come back to the area with the game now...

[meschlum]

This is why I changed the 6+ Essence rules from strict age limitations to "Quest required" requirements which are unique between any given Exalt - more storytelling and faster PC Essence gain without necessarily affecting NPC Essence gain, 'cause I can just say that the quest requirements average out to the age requirements and the PC's are exceptional.

Also, more interesting possibilities involving powerful Solar/Abyssal/Infernal(/DB for other reasons) opponents pop up.

Even then, the only time I ran a game long enough for it to come up, the only character who got really involved in seeking Essence 6 was the group's Terrestrial.

Dare I say it?

Might as well.

Fair Folk.

Training time is 1 tale. Period. For anything, including Essence.

"So", you ask, "what good is it knowing that the awesomness that are Fair Folk can haxxor the system in yet another way, as I am bound and determined to play something else? Something that has working perfects and involves less dodging of book shaped missiles beyond the Fourth Wall, where said perfects don't work anyway?"

1) Get a Cup Grace of your own
1.a) Optionally, hug it and kiss it and call it George.
2) Have it opened so you can consume other people's souls. There is no way in which this can be a bad thing.
3) Be a Lunar, Eclipse, or Fey-blooded. This makes things easier.
3.a) Otherwise, be subject to mockery and bow before the glory that is Desus. Then ignore this requirement, as Fair Folk have a way around it.
4) Learn Soul Digestion Catalysis (requires Ravishing the Created Form and Soul Consuming Hunger)
5) By eating a soul, you can now reduce your training time to 0.
6) Profit.

If a foolish ST or reality complains and states that you cannot learn Fair Folk feeding Charms (or makes them Native, via errata or Rule 0), warn them, and if they insist go directly from Step 1 to Step 5, via the following shortcut:

OMG) Find a Fair Folk who has activated Extinction of the Self, and has Soul Digestion Catalysis (Unshaped Ring Transformation is the Extra-crunchy option)
WTF) Attune to said Fair Folk for 1 mote.
BBQ) Use Soul Digestion Catalysis.

Extra-crunchy option: Unshaped Ring Transformation is a Staff Charm, so your Exctintion of Self'd Fair Folk can use it. It allows you to transmute a wyld artifact into another one with the same number of dots. Your Fair Folk is a wyld artifact. A 3-dot one, to be precise, as is any Fair Folk that has activated this Charm. Up to and including Balor, an adventurous Essence 10 Eclipse, etc.

So you can have it turn itself into a Fair Folk (or Eclipse, or Lunar) with any (all) the charms you want, the Essence you want, the Graces you want...

Sadly, still no perfects for dodging books outside the fourth wall - though I hear computer screens are helpful for this.

[Indon]

Training time is 1 tale. Period. For anything, including Essence.

Well, that is very convenient, but for Essence 6+ Exalts the requirement isn't one of training time, you simply can't raise your Essence at all unless you meet the requirements - normally age (natural age to the best of my knowledge, so I don't think time shenanigans would help), or an essence-raising personal quest in the houserule I run.

[Kris Strife]

Well, that is very convenient, but for Essence 6+ Exalts the requirement isn't one of training time, you simply can't raise your Essence at all unless you meet the requirements - normally age (natural age to the best of my knowledge, so I don't think time shenanigans would help), or an essence-raising personal quest in the houserule I run.

Be an Essence 5 Solar when someone offs UCS.

[TheCountAlucard]

Be an Essence 5 Solar when someone offs UCS.

Or, just for the sake of being cheesy, be an Essence 5 Solar, convince Lytek to strengthen your Essence, convince Five Days Darkness to bestow his benefaction on you, go to Yu-Shan and get forgiven of CoD status by UCS, and then take Glory to the Most High to be able to raise your Essence again... and then when UCS dies, you're Essence 9, and can qualify for Essence 10 Charms by dint of Divine Transcendance of (Ability).

But that's really cheesy.

[Lix Lorn]

Be a Lunar. Be a first Age Lunar. Bear Sleep until the current age. Congrats, you're a thousand!