Using Cantrips to break the game more

[awa]

most prestidigitation abuse are like the cancer giving food it doesn't work unless your dm willingly lets you use a selective applications of real world physics to get the desired effect.

"Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour"

nothing here saying you can repeatedly heat something to massive levels by repeat castings. that material doesn't exist in dnd unless your dm says so, and if you heat something that much it would do damage so it's out of the question right there

[Tyndmyr]

Can you combine with arcane thesis and use of +0 metamagics (invisible is a favorite) to bring it back to a cantrip? (I play Pathfinder, explaining my interest in this particular combo) If so,

Negative, errata for arcane thesis explicitly forbids this.

[Axinian]

Also, Animate Dread Warrior so that the bosses you kill become your butler. Preferably with spell-stitching, but, that's another kettle of fish...

See, this is why all bosses should explode!

[The Rabbler]

Negative, errata for arcane thesis explicitly forbids this.

I thought you were allowed to reduce the effective spell level to +0 if you combined a +2 metamagic and a +0 metamagic on your thesis'd spell. By my understanding, you get a total of +2 effective spell level from your metamagics and subtract 2 because there are two metamagics being used.

so 0+(2+2(-1))=0

[Ruinix]

sonic snap + fell drain don't work on mid level and foward, it has SR, so just at low level is ok.

[Mr.Smashy]

My favorite is coloring and flavoring Aboleth Mucous/ Poison as turtle soup a la Prestidigitation.

Costs all of 20 gold.

[Seerow]

sonic snap + fell drain don't work on mid level and foward, it has SR, so just at low level is ok.

SR can be relatively easily overcome, even without SR (No) spells. It's just a matter of pumping up that caster level.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Dude, you are burning... at least 4 (early entry shenanigans) levels of Wizard (or Cleric) casting, plus the Death domain you get is extremely redundant and the only good class feature is the Desecration Aura, which you can get as a ring. So no, True Necromancer is not good for a Necromancer.

AFAIK the consensus is that Cleric Necromancer: Big Powerful Minions which are buffed to Baator and back

Dread Necromancer: Gigantic Hordes of undead minions

Wizard Necromancer: Mister Negative (AKA as the Debuffer)

For the purposes of using Fell Animate on a Wizard (or period), creating the undead is pointless unless you can command them, and without multiclassing into something that rebukes (Cleric or Dread Necromancer), and if you're making a substantial dip into Cleric to command undead as a Wizard, True Necromancer is a natural progression.

Frankly, if I wanted a Wizard necromancer, I would go the debuff-happy route, mostly because Incantatrix is so easy to PrC into that it's not even funny (you just have to do things that an effective debuffer would have to do anyway), and then you will eventually get access to Empowered, Maximized, Split Ray, Fell Drained, Twinned Enervations (with Arcane Thesis and some negative metamagic modifiers to back it up), which the four metamagic feats granted from Incantatrix progression get you pretty quickly. What's more, most low-level Necromantic debuffs (like Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Weakness) or debuffs from other schools (Enchanter's Ray of Stupidity and Sting Ray) can also be Split Ray'd, so you can basically pick your poison (neutralize weak things through STR penalty, neutralize stupid things through INT damage, neutralize everything else with negative levels). Then again, I'm an Incantatrix fanboy.

If I wanted to actually go Necromancer, though, I'd make a Dread Necromancer, just because I love hordes of souped-up undead so much that everybody with a weak PC stopped playing Diablo II with me years ago.

But for the purposes of Fell Animate, True Necromancer trumps straight Wizard, because True Necromancer picks up something along the way that lets you command your new playthings.

Negative, errata for arcane thesis explicitly forbids this.

I thought you were allowed to reduce the effective spell level to +0 if you combined a +2 metamagic and a +0 metamagic on your thesis'd spell. By my understanding, you get a total of +2 effective spell level from your metamagics and subtract 2 because there are two metamagics being used.

so 0+(2+2(-1))=0

I'm pretty sure it's this. What the errata does expressly forbid, as I recall, is using this trick to turn a level 1 spell into a cantrip (in other words, as long as the net level isn't negative, you can cast normally).

[Coidzor]

For the purposes of using Fell Animate on a Wizard (or period), creating the undead is pointless unless you can command them

You do control the undead you create with Fell Animate as long as you don't go over your HD cap and even then, you just lose earlier created undead, since it uses the same mechanic and control pool as the animate dead spell.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You do control the undead you create with Fell Animate as long as you don't go over your HD cap and even then, you just lose earlier created undead, since it uses the same mechanic and control pool as the animate dead spell.

I just re-checked the feat, and you're right. Disregard; I suck.

[Draz74]

The classic game-breaking abuse with cantrips is to use the Launch Bolt cantrip with Colossal-sized bolts.

[ubergeek63]

The classic game-breaking abuse with cantrips is to use the Launch Bolt cantrip with Colossal-sized bolts.

a thoughtful DM can counter that easily.

4 size category difference = -8 to hit

216lbs for a quiver of 10 bolts

full round action to "load" your hand with a 20lb crossbow bolt

that does not sound practical or game breaking ... particularly when you are talking about a weakling wizard whose heavy load capacity is likely to be under 150lbs!

A generous DM might let a creative player get away with casting enlarge weapon 4 times on a quiver to help most of that, but that is seriously bending the rules since that is for melee weapons. Not a serious problem since it burns 4 rounds of a 1 round per lvl spell duration and immobilizes the caster for the duration.

[Tyndmyr]

I thought you were allowed to reduce the effective spell level to +0 if you combined a +2 metamagic and a +0 metamagic on your thesis'd spell. By my understanding, you get a total of +2 effective spell level from your metamagics and subtract 2 because there are two metamagics being used.

so 0+(2+2(-1))=0

That you can do. But, someone mentioned preparing a spell in a slot lower than it's original level. AT can't do that. In fact, significant shenanigans are required to pull that off, generally. Not a lot of cantrips out there in total, so even the usual method of finding a partial caster list with spells slotted lower than normal isn't that helpful.

[Benly]

Fell Animate is interesting... It's horribly situational, since it requires a spell to kill, but if you metamagic out Enervate or something, and can fit this in the arrangement, you can deal enough negative levels to kill almost anything, and in the process create an undead which you can (presumably) put under your command. The only problem with this is that the feat investment is so huge, you're probably not playing a necromancer class, and aren't going to get away with much... But if you can pick it up as a rod, why not?

The feat investment doesn't have to be huge. The thing is, you're thinking in the wrong direction with Fell Animate by putting it on Enervate. Instead, put it on Acid Splash.

When your party drops an enemy with damage, is that enemy always dead? Frequently, it'll be knocked into the negatives and left unconscious to bleed while the PCs move on to the next enemy. Coup de grace the enemy with a Fell Animating Acid Splash. You've spent a lower-level slot than you would've for Animate Dead, gotten the same zombie, didn't spend a material component and the only down sides are that you have a narrow window to use it and you can't make a skeleton instead. One feat for cost-free undead is a pretty good deal in the right campaign.

Chill Touch is also good for this, especially for dread necromancers who don't get cantrips. Kelgore's Grave Mist (PHB2) deserves some mention as well, as a large-AoE ongoing-damage spell, and one dread necromancers can get to boot; basically anyone you chop down into the negatives in its area of effect is likely to be finished off by it and zombified under your control immediately.

A situation of special note is the illumian dread necromancer. A second-level illumian with the right sigils gets a Divine Metamagic-like ability to convert turning/rebuking attempts into metamagic twice per day. Since dread necromancers have rebuking ability, they can cast a fell animating chill touch starting at level 2 and start getting zombies much earlier than just about anyone else except incarnates. Again one feat investment, although in this case it also determines your race pick.

[HalfDragonCube]

a thoughtful DM can counter that easily.

4 size category difference = -8 to hit

216lbs for a quiver of 10 bolts

full round action to "load" your hand with a 20lb crossbow bolt

that does not sound practical or game breaking ... particularly when you are talking about a weakling wizard whose heavy load capacity is likely to be under 150lbs!

A generous DM might let a creative player get away with casting enlarge weapon 4 times on a quiver to help most of that, but that is seriously bending the rules since that is for melee weapons. Not a serious problem since it burns 4 rounds of a 1 round per lvl spell duration and immobilizes the caster for the duration.

I'm not sure those penalties apply. Dunno, though.

A maximum capacity of 150lbs means they have a Str score of 13. Far too much for a non-gishy spellcaster. A decent Wizard has Str 6 if you use point buy.

[ubergeek63]

I'm not sure those penalties apply. Dunno, though.

A maximum capacity of 150lbs means they have a Str score of 13. Far too much for a non-gishy spellcaster. A decent Wizard has Str 6 if you use point buy.

"causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow ... or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply."

therefore, if you are allowed to "fire" a colossal bolt, it would be as if fired from a colossal crossbow.

[HalfDragonCube]

"causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow ... or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply."

therefore, if you are allowed to "fire" a colossal bolt, it would be as if fired from a colossal crossbow.

Awesome! Time to bug my DM to let me get it so the one-shotting can begin.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The feat investment doesn't have to be huge. The thing is, you're thinking in the wrong direction with Fell Animate by putting it on Enervate. Instead, put it on Acid Splash.

When your party drops an enemy with damage, is that enemy always dead? Frequently, it'll be knocked into the negatives and left unconscious to bleed while the PCs move on to the next enemy. Coup de grace the enemy with a Fell Animating Acid Splash. You've spent a lower-level slot than you would've for Animate Dead, gotten the same zombie, didn't spend a material component and the only down sides are that you have a narrow window to use it and you can't make a skeleton instead. One feat for cost-free undead is a pretty good deal in the right campaign.

Chill Touch is also good for this, especially for dread necromancers who don't get cantrips. Kelgore's Grave Mist (PHB2) deserves some mention as well, as a large-AoE ongoing-damage spell, and one dread necromancers can get to boot; basically anyone you chop down into the negatives in its area of effect is likely to be finished off by it and zombified under your control immediately.

A situation of special note is the illumian dread necromancer. A second-level illumian with the right sigils gets a Divine Metamagic-like ability to convert turning/rebuking attempts into metamagic twice per day. Since dread necromancers have rebuking ability, they can cast a fell animating chill touch starting at level 2 and start getting zombies much earlier than just about anyone else except incarnates. Again one feat investment, although in this case it also determines your race pick.

I was thinking more from the perspective of "Arcane Thesis + other metamagic shenanigans on Enervation (like Incantatrix or Dwoemerkeeper 10) to create a Heightened, Empowered, Twinned, Split Ray, Fell Drained (plus mitigating modifiers like Invisible) Enervation to take out the two biggest, baddest looking things in the room in one fell swoop (get it? fell?), then turning them on the rest of your enemy group in the same combat."

I'm not going to lie--Fell Animate on cantrips isn't where my mind went with this, and it's a creative (and less intensive) way to use it, which is great. Acid Splash also has better long-term applications (because you're not blowing your biggest spell on it, or waiting until level eleventy to get it off), though I've known too many prime targets to fall to the wayside because the Barbarian in full rage x3 crits with a Power Attack on the 3HP Dire Bear and craters its skull in. Sometimes there is no "dying", just "dead, holy cow is it dead".

That isn't to say the both can't coexist, either--even without metamagic modifiers, Fell Animate is available on cantrips at level 5, before you even get Enervation (let alone before you can perform metamagic shenanigans with it), or even level 3 if you Easy Megamatic it, so you can start using Acid Splash early, keep it through the late levels (for those "crimes of opportunity" where you can coup-de-grace a dying foe with it), and also use cheesed-out Enervation for the enemy you just don't want falling to the wayside. No extra feat investment, no conflict with spell slots... And a whole lot of undead monsters at your disposal.

[Benly]

I'm not going to lie--Fell Animate on cantrips isn't where my mind went with this, and it's a creative (and less intensive) way to use it, which is great. Acid Splash also has better long-term applications (because you're not blowing your biggest spell on it, or waiting until level eleventy to get it off), though I've known too many prime targets to fall to the wayside because the Barbarian in full rage x3 crits with a Power Attack on the 3HP Dire Bear and craters its skull in. Sometimes there is no "dying", just "dead, holy cow is it dead".

That's when you sigh, bite the bullet, and pull out the black onyx.

Anyhow, yeah, if you're already pulling metamagic shenanigans on Enervation and you've got Fell Animate sitting around, then heck, why not?

[ubergeek63]

Awesome! Time to bug my DM to let me get it so the one-shotting can begin.

lol ... the point was -8 to hit and "reload time" of over a round for a weapon you could not carry with you.

colossal is 6x larger in each direction and 216 times the weight. a quiver of 10 bolts would weigh 216lbs. each bolt would be 6 feet long, 2 inches thick, and weigh 20lbs!

now your wizard probably can only carry 100lbs as a heavy load.

[Axinian]

now your wizard probably can only carry 100lbs as a heavy load.

Bag of Holding?

[Seatbelt]

I always thought launch bolt was a terrible spell. I could prepare this spell that lets me fire a crossbow. Or I could buy a crossbow.

[TroubleBrewing]

Bag of Holding?

Nah. Party Fighter. Cheaper and easier to replace.

Slightly harder to steal.

[ubergeek63]

Bag of Holding?

which helps with the weight and size, but not speed and weapon penalties

[ubergeek63]

I always thought launch bolt was a terrible spell. I could prepare this spell that lets me fire a crossbow. Or I could buy a crossbow.

it doesn't let you fire a crossbow - it replaces the crossbow.

i saves a move action to equip the bow and the clumsy, fragile 4lb weapon getting in your way. a move action to equip and a move action to load before you can fire a single shot compared to a free action to draw out a bolt for a cantrip "weapon" - seems decent to me.

[Feytalist]

Not quite game-breaking, but I only recently realised how useful that stupid little message spell is... Perfect for stealth/scouting missions. Decent range, decent duration, it's like a magic walkie-talkie. Your party need never be separated again.

[Axinian]

Slightly harder to steal.

But oh so much more rewarding when you do.

[Draz74]

Not quite game-breaking, but I only recently realised how useful that stupid little message spell is... Perfect for stealth/scouting missions. Decent range, decent duration, it's like a magic walkie-talkie. Your party need never be separated again.

QFT. I consider Message the most useful Cantrip after Prestidigitation and Detect Magic. I've never understood why it doesn't generally get much attention.

[ubergeek63]

But oh so much more rewarding when you do.

that depends on the fighter's gender ;)

[HalfDragonCube]

Nah. Party Fighter. Cheaper and easier to replace.

Slightly harder to steal.

But a bag of holding would look awesomer. You can tell someone is a tier 1 class when they cast a spell and a crossbow bolt flies at deadly speed out of a bag that could not possibly contain it.

that depends on the fighter's gender ;)

Eww... Just stick an immovable rod in the bag of holding and call it a day.

Immovable rods: the solution to any problem. Such as need to discipline fighters. And anyone else.