General Anime Discussion: Area 11

[Tengu_temp]

No dude. Just no. You're taking an unofficial definition apart into single components and then checking if a character matches those components one by one, without understanding the definition as a whole. Try again.

[Terraoblivion]

How is Okabe "broodingly soulful" and how does Mayuri "teach him to embrace life and its infinite mysteries and adventures"? If anything she teaches him to grow the **** up and take the world seriously.

[kamikasei]

If anything that relationship is the other way around.

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Okabe puts on a whole elaborate alternate persona specifically to cheer Mayuri up and distract her (and to cover for his own inadequacies). She plays along more to indulge him and because she recognizes what he's doing than because she's any more detached from reality. She's often the one who grounds him and sometimes forces herself to keep in character because he needs it. Of the two, she's implied to be far closer to being a functioning adult - she has other friends and hobbies, keeps down a steady job, etc.

She acts cheerful and carefree, but that does not an MPDG make.

And by the way, I'm pretty sure you're abusing the concept of fridging. At the very least, fridging is about disposable women, subjecting female characters to horrors for their effects on male characters. When a character dies halfway through a story and the rest of the story is then driven by a quest to undo their death, that's not exactly disposable. "I need to save my little sister" is not equivalent to "villain! You raped and dismembered my girlfriend! Now I'm really pissed off (oh yeah and my girlfriend's dead but that's secondary)".

[MLai]

Steins;Gate

Tengu: No dude. Just no. You're taking an unofficial definition apart into single components and then checking if a character matches those components one by one, without understanding the definition as a whole. Try again.

Oh that's an unofficial definition, now?
Just because I posted that way doesn't mean I didn't read the entire Wiki entry as a single idea.

Terra: How is Okabe "broodingly soulful" and how does Mayuri "teach him to embrace life and its infinite mysteries and adventures"? If anything she teaches him to grow the **** up and take the world seriously.

I already said Okabe/Okarin (is Okarin a nickname?) "is not a brooder, but that's Okarin." She's his emotional crutch.
When did she teach him that?

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I thought their relationship would evolve (for the better) after Okarin got a romantic partner, but it didn't seem to. But since that's not the focus of the story I can forgive that. She did once ask Okarin "now that you have lots of friends, Mayuri can stop being your hostage right?" Even tho the anime itself didn't really explore that, I'll extrapolate that's eventually what happens. But Mayuri didn't make that happen.

(Hostage, LOL. Girl you can play your private games with Okarin but don't tell that to other ppl.)

Kami: Of the two, she's implied to be far closer to being a functioning adult - she has other friends and hobbies, keeps down a steady job, etc.

That is true but her demeanor is not an act. Also MPDGs aren't implied to be nonfunctional, merely alternative. Which Mayuri definitely is (otaku, cosplay, works as cat-maid).

She acts cheerful and carefree, but that does not an MPDG make.

Yes that's just the pixie part. It's the sum of her role/character that makes her a MPDG. I personally don't have a problem with the role myself; there are instances where the role is logical (in fantasy story with a non-human character, for example).

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And by the way, I'm pretty sure you're abusing the concept of fridging. At the very least, fridging is about disposable women, subjecting female characters to horrors for their effects on male characters. When a character dies halfway through a story and the rest of the story is then driven by a quest to undo their death, that's not exactly disposable.

What about the fact that the character is never an active participant in the whole exercise, despite the fact that she's the most affected? She's not dead or comatose thru the arc; she's alive, functional, and well-informed. Yet she's treated as just a moving target or the goalpost you defend. Which is why I said you could replace her with a puppy for the entire arc, and the story would run thru exactly the same.

But as I said, none of this is severe or in mean spirit. It's true that a lot of this is just anime conventions. But there it is.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's the sum of her role/character that makes her a MPDG.

If you understand that then how are you so wrong? You're exactly right, a Manic Pixie Dream Girl is defined entirely by her role in the story and the character traits are additive to that. Character traits alone cannot define the MPDG. Agree?

A MPDG's role in the story is not just 'a wacky emotional crutch', its 'a wacky girl who changes a guy that she just met and sort of becomes his emotional crutch'.

As a childhood friend, Mayushi is automatically disqualified. MPDGs change their targets. Mayushi is part of Houin Kyouma's status quo from before the story started. Houin Kyouma changes by meeting people other than Mayushi and by losing her. That's the opposite of a MPDG.

[kamikasei]

That is true but her demeanor is not an act.

...Yes? I didn't say it was. It doesn't have to be. I'm not sure what your point is here.

Yes that's just the pixie part. It's the sum of her role/character that makes her a MPDG.

And as Closet Skeleton points out, it doesn't, so...

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What about the fact that the character is never an active participant in the whole exercise, despite the fact that she's the most affected?

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Yes? What about it? That is, in fact, bad - I'm not quite sure what to make of it since Okabe's willing to seek help from others, and those others also reflexively seem to keep Mayuri out of the loop - I guess she's just meant to be so "ordinary" and happy no one wants to bring her down if they don't have to? Nonetheless, that's not fridging. Your counterpoint doesn't counter anything.

But as I said, none of this is severe or in mean spirit. It's true that a lot of this is just anime conventions. But there it is.

And as people have been saying - yes, indeed there a lot of sexist and problematic elements are - but no, some that you're pointing to do not fall under the headings you're slapping on them.

[MLai]

@ Closet Skel:
While Mayuri has been with... Okabe since before the story started, I don't think "time frame" is a vital criteria for counting/discounting MPDG status. Going back to the Wiki again, I don't see it as a criteria. Merely since that the role is referred for movies, by circumstances the protag often only meets the MPDG at the start of the movie, in order to follow the chronological conventions of a rom com.

A MPDG's role in the story is not just 'a wacky emotional crutch', its 'a wacky girl who changes a guy that she just met and sort of becomes his emotional crutch'.

So you'd have to point out for me exactly where you read the bolded part, because I don't see it as a given.

@ Kami:

Yes? I didn't say it was. It doesn't have to be. I'm not sure what your point is here.

You were saying that she's more socially adjusted. I was pointing out that it's strange that a near-adult such as her can act that way and still be considered "socially adjusted." Which relates to what I said about Asian cinema young characters being portrayed as less mature than their actual age. It's a common failing of Asian writers regarding adolescents of either gender, and regarding young women.

Nonetheless, that's not fridging. Your counterpoint doesn't counter anything.

Then what would you categorize it as? It serves the same purpose as fridging: Ignore the female victim's agency, merely using her misfortune as the impetus for the male character.

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The series did in fact start to explore the effect of Okabe's obsessive time-looping on Mayuri, in that dream/vision sequence and in Mayuri's cemetery monologue. I felt it was starting to draw a parallel to the debate over assisted euthanasia for end-of-life care. If the story had veered in this direction it would have been quite awesome (a topic I've never remotely encountered in anime, and never so inventively), and I probably would have retracted my criticism over Mayuri's role in this arc.

[Closet_Skeleton]

in order to follow the chronological conventions of a rom com.

Its a rom com trope. Taking it outside of that genre at all puts you on shaky ground in regards to it.

Going back to the Wiki again, I don't see it as a criteria.

Seriously, don't use Wikipedia like that. Its Wikipedia. Use a real source. Any hack could have edited those stupid criteria. I could go on their now and edit in 'cannot be Asian' and then I'd like, so automatically like, win this like, argument thingy.

TVTropes (another wiki, so not an authority either, but its specialist so is more likely to get this sort of thing right) doesn't give any checklist of traits and makes it clear that the important thing about a Manic Pixie Dream Girl is that she enters the protagonist's life to change him. She might already know him or whatever but Mayushi does not change Houin with her presence. She did once, but that's all in the flashbacks. She might be a MPDG in a prequel but she isn't now.

The term MPDG was termed by Nathan Rabin thus;

"that bubbly, shallow cinematic creature that exists solely in the fevered imaginations of sensitive writer-directors to teach broodingly soulful young men to embrace life and its infinite mysteries and adventures."

That's it. That's the only real source. Everything else is a unnecessary extrapolation.

Mayushi does not teach Houin to embrace life (eg change his status quo, which she inherently cannot since she is his status quo).

Criteria don't work that way either. For an example, I am not autistic. One of my friends is mildly autistic. Yet I tick way more boxes on an autistic traits checklist than him. Which is why I got tested and despite amateurs constantly mistaking me for autistic no professional who's been with me for more than half an hour does. Autism's easy to use as an example because so many of its associated traits are normal in the general population but all attempts at 'checklist diagnosis' have the same massive problem.

You were saying that she's more socially adjusted. I was pointing out that it's strange that a near-adult such as her can act that way and still be considered "socially adjusted."

Then you're just being biased against her personality.

Mayushi:

Is an adult

Who lives on her own

Can manage herself quite fine

With a steady job

Fulfilling hobbies

A network of friends

Who generally enjoys life.

How well-adjusted do you (random emphasis) need her to be?

Yes she just has a childlike personality to appeal to a popular fad among the story's otaku's audience, but you can't blame the writer's for knowing how to target their market (you can hope for artistic standards to increase, but artists need to eat too). But he personality does not mean she's literally still a child. She has emotional problems, but if she had those same problems with a different personality they wouldn't be evidence of immaturity, so you shouldn't even if she has that personality. Mature people aren't robots, they have problems too.

When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

[banthesun]

Fall Anime Season!

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So what's everyone here looking foward to?

[Tengu_temp]

Hey, JoJo's first arc. I don't think that was ever turned into an anime before, was it?

I wonder is the Mass Effect movie the same thing I heard about a few months ago and thought it's going to be a TV show, or a completely different thing.

[Prime32]

Hey, JoJo's first arc. I don't think that was ever turned into an anime before, was it?

I've heard they actually plan to animate the whole thing.

[NeonBlack]

Fall Anime Season!

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So what's everyone here looking foward to?

That's... somewhat dry considering it's a fall season. New Hidamari Sketch is a shoe-in for me, and then I guess there's Little Busters!, Robotics;Notes provided it's anything like Steins;Gate (which I still have to finish, damn it), and maybe Magi, since from what I've read the shot they chose for the chart is absolutely not representative at all of the whole original work, and it's apparently quite good. Maybe add Jormungand S2 if I ever get to watch the first one before it starts...

Edit: and the Madoka movies, obviously, although that may take a while.

[Prime32]

Eh, even without new series, the remainder of Accel World, Dog Days' and Sword Art Online would be enough for me to consider it a decent season.

As it is, I finished part 3 of JJBA recently so this anime is definitely relevant to my interests. I presume that Robotics;Notes will be good, but I haven't got around to watching Steins;Gate yet.

[Terraoblivion]

Or Robotics;Note could take after Chaos;Head instead and be quite a mess. In any case, it looks like 2012 will continue the trend of being rather meh in terms of series that aren't Mouretsu Pirates.

[mallorean_thug]

Oh hey guys, been a while. I kept telling myself that I'd get around to posting as soon as I caught up on everything I'm slightly behind on, but 6 days later and I still haven't gotten up to date on Muv Luv, Accel World, Rinne no Lagrange, and Sword Art Online. I should probably just decide to drop Muv Luv and Accel World, but I still have enough interest in Lagrange and SAO that I'll catch up sooner or later. I am up to date on Humanity has Declined, Joshiraku, Moyashimon Returns, and Natsuyuki Rendevous though, and all 4 of those have been great.

On the other hand, I was at Otakon all last weekend.

Obligatory swag image dump:

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While I was there, I got to meet Gen Urobuchi (and had him sign a Fate/Zero Seibah fig for my friend, sadly forgot to get a picture of it. Couldn't get a picture of Gen because he's super camera shy.)

And see the premier of the first 5 episodes of the Steins;Gate dub. Which was actually quite good. I mean, it can't really compare to the amazing japanese cast, but the localization and the interplay between Okabe and Kirisu was perfect. If anybody here was waiting for it to be dubbed, I can honestly recommend it to you, Funimation will be releasing it in September sometime.

Sadly we missed the Aya Hirano concert because of my friend's girlfriend, but otherwise it was a great time.


As far as fall season, Robotics;Note and Psycho-pass are the noitaminA shows so they're autopickups. People have already mentioned the other reason to pick up Robotics;Note, so I should probably point out that I am 90% confidant in saying that Gen is the writer for Psycho-pass. I'll also be picking up Jormungand S2 because its a second season for something I finished and enjoyed, Little Busters because its Key and I don't have time to read the VN, and Kyousogiga because I enjoyed the ONA and hope that the chart is right and it actually is airing in Fall. And both Haitai Nanafa and K will probably deserve at least a glance at their first episodes just for being the only other anime original shows airing.


As far as this entire year, while it definitely hasn't been great and hasn't even come anywhere close to last year, it hasn't been that bad. I mean I'd definitely at least count Thermae Romae, Daily Lives of High school Boys, Sakimachi no Apollon, Tsuritama, Lupin III: A Women named Fujiko Minne, Fate/Zero, and Humanity has Declined as above meh tier. With plenty of shows that were enjoyable enough that I don't regret my time watching them.

[AlterForm]

Magi gets a "maybe" for the same reasoning as NeonBlack, and my usual group will probably wind up watching Robotics;Notes since they all enjoyed S;G and C;H. Do I need to go back and watch/skim those or will it be self-contained?

Psycho-Pass is the other NoitaminA show, so that gets an immediate go ahead. More JJBA? Sure, why not. Shin Sekai Yori grabs my eye for some reason, maybe because it sounds like the sort of thing that should be on NoitaminA (which causes me to worry a bit because it's not). I saw the Kyousogiga short from 2 seasons ago, so I'm curious to see if the series will make any sort of actual sense.

Girls/Panzer will interesting to see just how much fanservice it can jam in.

Tales of Symphonia Part 3 released? Geez, gotta catch up on that. Madoka movies, Yamato movie ... Cyborg 009 movie? Hmm, gonna check that out. Nerawareta Gakuan looks neat, too.

I feel like there's some other big movie I've been waiting to see for a while. Part of a series, maybe? A reboot, even. Hmmm. Drat. I Can (Not) Remember.

[Prime32]

Oh hey guys, been a while. I kept telling myself that I'd get around to posting as soon as I caught up on everything I'm slightly behind on, but 6 days later and I still haven't gotten up to date on Muv Luv, Accel World, Rinne no Lagrange, and Sword Art Online. I should probably just decide to drop Muv Luv and Accel World, but I still have enough interest in Lagrange and SAO that I'll catch up sooner or later. I am up to date on Humanity has Declined, Joshiraku, Moyashimon Returns, and Natsuyuki Rendevous though, and all 4 of those have been great.

Out of curiosity, how much have you watched of Accel World? I've heard some people say the early episodes were weak; having read the manga adaptation first I find it hard to judge. Plus it and Sword Art Online have some minor references to each other (and an outright crossover, though the odds of it being animated seem low).

Oh, and *paru paru at swag*

[Nerd-o-rama]

Hey look, a seasonal anime list with absolutely nothing that interests me, except a couple of dem movies at the bottom, of course.

Well, I guess I can catch up on E7AO, then. And Girls/Panzer might be a fun trainwreck.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Girls/Panzer will interesting to see just how much fanservice it can jam in.

Looks more like 'K-On with Tanks', so the fanservice content might not be that high at all. Or be really high depending on your taste for moe I suppose.

If it was Dominion Tank Police meets Azumanga Daioh instead it might actually be fun.

Pity Minami-ke and Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai are only getting OVAs. Otherwise its just Bakuman and new stuff that might surprise me. Oh and my dad with like more Hayate the Combat Butler.

Out of curiosity, how much have you watched of Accel World? I've heard some people say the early episodes were weak;

I found pretty much all of Accel World pretty good. Its not equally exciting all the way through but that's just how 26 episode series are structured.

[mallorean_thug]

Out of curiosity, how much have you watched of Accel World? I've heard some people say the early episodes were weak; having read the manga adaptation first I find it hard to judge. Plus it and Sword Art Online have some minor references to each other (and an outright crossover, though the odds of it being animated seem low).

Oh, and *paru paru at swag*

Oh I'm only two episodes behind now. Dropping it has nothing to do with not being able to catch back up and everything to do with the fact I'm following more shows than I have time or interest for every week, and those two are the weakest shows I'm watching right now. And the beginning of the second cour has been the weakest part of the series so far. The only part thats made me lose my suspension of disbelief so badly and cringe was whatever episode had Kuroyukihime using Full Physical Burst.

As far as crossovers, if Kuroyukihime turns out to be Kirito's daughter like half the internet thinks is the case, I will be rather perturbed.

[A Rainy Knight]

Well, it looks like I'm getting into a love/hate relationship with Evangelion. Loved the original series until I felt betrayed by its mindscrew ending, but now I'm back in love after the two Rebuild movies. But now I have to wait so long for more of it!

Hmm, I don't really see anything in particular in the fall lineup that interests me, but who knows, maybe I'll wind up giving something a try and enjoying it.

[Prime32]

As far as crossovers, if Kuroyukihime turns out to be Kirito's daughter like half the internet thinks is the case, I will be rather perturbed.

It's possible, but the crossover was just a fight between Kirito and Silver Crow with a technobabble excuse. There are hints of technology in SAO being prototypes of technology in AW though.

[kamikasei]

Fall anime:

I'll at least give Robotics;Notes a look, since I hear some Steins;Gate characters are even in it.

I gather Jormungand is worth watching, but I'd have to get around to the first season.

...Kyousougiga is so vague and odd-sounding I half expect to hear it become the breakout success of the season.

Movies... I'll be looking for Madoka, of course, and Eva; Macross FB 7 and Tiger and Bunny will both go on the "once I watch the relevant series, which I've been meaning to" heap.

Kind of an underwhelming season, all right.

I wonder is the Mass Effect movie the same thing I heard about a few months ago and thought it's going to be a TV show, or a completely different thing.

As far as I know there's only the one anime in the works, the one starring Vega set around the time of ME2, and this appears to be that. ...I'm not particularly optimistic.

On Steins;Gate:

Firstly, MLai, spoilers.

Secondly, on the MPDG side of things Closet Skeleton has already said all I would have and more.

Thirdly:

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Then what would you categorize it as? It serves the same purpose as fridging: Ignore the female victim's agency, merely using her misfortune as the impetus for the male character.

The series did in fact start to explore the effect of Okabe's obsessive time-looping on Mayuri, in that dream/vision sequence and in Mayuri's cemetery monologue. I felt it was starting to draw a parallel to the debate over assisted euthanasia for end-of-life care. If the story had veered in this direction it would have been quite awesome (a topic I've never remotely encountered in anime, and never so inventively), and I probably would have retracted my criticism over Mayuri's role in this arc.

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The time travel thing complicates matters by making death reversible (yes, yes, fridging as a term comes from comics where death is notoriously reversible, etc. etc.), so in effect it's simply a rescue mission. Mayuri's death doesn't simply give Okabe motivation and development: his motivation is to prevent it from happening, to save her. I'm not sure what specific trope name there may be for that, but it's quite a different phenomenon to fridging. I'm not saying it's not problematic to have this passive victim right there with no one who knows she's in danger bothering to involve her in getting her out of it - I'm just saying you've mislabeled the problem.

Mayuri's passivity is interesting, actually, because everyone seems to go along with it. Kurisu doesn't think to say anything to her. Rukako and Feyris are willing to make enormous sacrifices for her based on Okabe's word, without so much as giving her a call (and both are arguably closer to her than to him). The entire narrative and cast seem to agree that Mayuri is in a protected class, not as a woman but by herself.

[Nerd-o-rama]

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The time travel thing complicates matters by making death reversible (yes, yes, fridging as a term comes from comics where death is notoriously reversible, etc. etc.), so in effect it's simply a rescue mission. Mayuri's death doesn't simply give Okabe motivation and development: his motivation is to prevent it from happening, to save her. I'm not sure what specific trope name there may be for that, but it's quite a different phenomenon to fridging. I'm not saying it's not problematic to have this passive victim right there with no one who knows she's in danger bothering to involve her in getting her out of it - I'm just saying you've mislabeled the problem.

Mayuri's passivity is interesting, actually, because everyone seems to go along with it. Kurisu doesn't think to say anything to her. Rukako and Feyris are willing to make enormous sacrifices for her based on Okabe's word, without so much as giving her a call (and both are arguably closer to her than to him). The entire narrative and cast seem to agree that Mayuri is in a protected class, not as a woman but by herself.

I haven't watched the show, but based on this description, she would be a traditional Damsel in Distress - person in mortal peril whom it is the hero's job/motivation to rescue before it is too late.

[A Rainy Knight]

My apologies if I missed where someone mentioned it before, but is anyone else watching Kokoro Connect? I just watched the first four episodes today and I'm actually pretty hooked on its central concept.

[Prime32]

This series is a classic.

[MLai]

*Skimmed thru that LONG list of Fall 2012 anime TV/OAV/movies.

Jeez, I thought anime is supposed to be dying? 6_9
I remember the bad old days when you'd watch anything out of Japan, because there was so little of it and because anything is better than the crap out of stateside.

[Nerd-o-rama]

*Skimmed thru that LONG list of Fall 2012 anime TV/OAV/movies.

Jeez, I thought anime is supposed to be dying? 6_9
I remember the bad old days when you'd watch anything out of Japan, because there was so little of it and because anything is better than the crap out of stateside.

People complain about anime "dying" because it's mostly confined to four or five genres that the people complaining happen not to like. Most of that list, for example, is romantic comedy or some kind of slice-of-life-of-high-school-students, with or without some kind of twist. It's not that it's dead, it's that most of it is really samey. Just like American TV with our family sitcoms and police procedurals.

Also I don't think that Japan's output has grown so much as fansubs have. Back in the 90's, you had to rely on bootleg video tapes or, God help you, laserdiscs. Nowadays, for a reasonably popular series, you can except some sort of mostly readable fansubs in digital format within 24 hours of broadcast, available to the entire English-speaking world for free. Not legally, except in unusually cool cases like Persona 4, but free.

[Closet_Skeleton]

My apologies if I missed where someone mentioned it before, but is anyone else watching Kokoro Connect? I just watched the first four episodes today and I'm actually pretty hooked on its central concept.

I was watching it. I'm about four episodes in too. One of the guys I watch new stuff with once a week is complaining because the thread on Reddit for episode 7 was way more popular than the previous 6 and we won't know why for ages.

[MLai]

@ Kokoro Connect:
Huh... checking the wiki.
"5 HS friends experience a continuous body-swapping phenomenon."
*Skims thru the character list... He-She-She-He-She
LOL, this I gotta see. Yes I just wanna guffaw at the embarassment. Then we'll see if the story keeps me in; usually these light novel adaptations are always good.

Old anime question:
I'm looking for an old OAV series, probably 90's, that I have a vague recollection of. Does this description ring anyone's bell?

(1) Protag is this feral-child-boy who has long unkempt honey-blonde hair.
(2) I vaguely remember him crash landing on a planet in an escape pod? Anyways I do remember him hanging around the crashed pod in the woods/meadow.
(3) He was found and taken to this medieval town/castle setting.
(4) The world is a weird mish-mash of medieval and magical technology. We find this out because near the end of eps.1 there's this evil wizard attacking the castle on a floating pedestal. Wizard guy is heavyset-looking, and his pedestal looks mechanical. I remember this show because he attacked using technology-enhanced magic and the fusion was done in a cool way.
(5) The episode ends with the boy jumping from on high (off a tower?) onto the evil wizard's floating pedestal and killing him with a sword/dagger?

Anyone know this OAV series? :P