Who's Excited For Skyrim?

[Triaxx]

It's worth a shot, even if you borrow it from a friend. One of the things that Fo3 suffered, from, was that they tried to set it in and around DC, and it was so similar all over that it had no differentiation.

New Vegas puts you out in a larger feeling world. From a dry lake bed, to the tree filled mountains, or even the huge, NON-irradiated lake. As well as the ability to breath underwater.

[Partysan]

I have hopes for that game. But the announcement that it would be developed for console first and then ported for PC really made me rethink that. I hate ports.

[Eldan]

Yeah. We'll probably have to wait for a proper interface mod again. Oblivion's inventory was damn annoying.

[Zevox]

As for weapon reach, I could tell it just fine. I've played a lot of Oblivion, and first person games in general however, so this could just be me.

So then you can't really give me the sort of answer I'm looking for here then.

All right, better idea on how to figure out whether I'd be at all interested in Skyrim then: I'll try Oblivion. My brother owns a copy of the PC version, and I'm pretty sure he's not currently playing it, so he should be fine with letting me borrow it. According to canyourunit.com I should be able to run it unless it has problems with Windows 7 (anybody know if that's the case?). And if I have problems with it on my PC (or just find I don't like playing it on a keyboard and mouse for that matter) I know I have a friend who owns the 360 version and has offered to let me borrow games from him in the past, so I could try the game that way as well.

Since I seem to recall seeing members of these boards discussing how the game has a weird, counter-intuitive stat and level up system, perhaps I could get some help or tips on how to build a character, so I don't screw myself over?

I figure I'll start off playing through the tutorial dungeon that warty mentioned in his last post to see if I like (or at least don't actively dislike) the melee combat. If I'm fine with it, I'll proceed with that and try to play an Eldritch Knight type - half melee, half magic, so I can see how both of those systems work. If I dislike the melee, I'll restart and go for a straight mage. So tips on how to build those types of characters would be much appreciated.

Also, if anyone knows exactly how to switch from the first-person to third-person views in the game, that'd be nice to know as well. I remember having trouble figuring that out in Fallout 3...

Zevox

[Dogmantra]

Also, if anyone knows exactly how to switch from the first-person to third-person views in the game, that'd be nice to know as well. I remember having trouble figuring that out in Fallout 3...

TAB in Morrowind, F in Oblivion and Fallout.

[Domochevsky]

As for stats... take the abilities you will use the least and make them your major abilities, since you only level up (causing the enemies to scale with you) when your major abilities go up.

Ugly, i know. But if you take non-combat skills as your primaries and use them heavily you will be utterly screwed a few levels in.

[Zevox]

TAB in Morrowind, F in Oblivion and Fallout.

Okay, that covers the PC version. Anybody know how it would work in the 360 version, in case I wind up going with that?

As for stats... take the abilities you will use the least and make them your major abilities, since you only level up (causing the enemies to scale with you) when your major abilities go up.

Ugly, i know. But if you take non-combat skills as your primaries and use them heavily you will be utterly screwed a few levels in.

Okay, I can see why taking non-combat skills as major abilities in a system like that would be a problem, but why not use the combat skills I'll use most often as major abilities? Unless enemies benefit more from leveling up than you do, wouldn't that be preferable, or at least just as good?

Zevox

[Misery Esquire]

Okay, I can see why taking non-combat skills as major abilities in a system like that would be a problem, but why not use the combat skills I'll use most often as major abilities? Unless enemies benefit more from leveling up than you do, wouldn't that be preferable, or at least just as good?

Zevox

No, no. You should take noncombat skills. Ones that you never use, preferably. And the reason you don't take the skills you use is because everything levels up with you, not less-than so that it's a challenge to mash through mooks, but equally or greater if you happen not to be playing Reflects-and-Invisible-alot-the-Mage. Of course, if you are playing said mage, it's a joke. Because then you're invisible/100% Camo'd the entire game.

I had a warrior character, and I was feeling pretty good about him, on my first playthrough. Bashing heads, taking names, collecting armour (though disappointingly in less pieces than Morrowind). Then I proceeded to level up a few times. The bandit cave that respawns and I would loot for gold? Yeah. Each individual bandit could beat the stuffing out of me. And there's areas where I engage more than one at a time. It was sort of disappointing to level up and become less impressive compared to my enemies.

[ZombyWoof]

Since I seem to recall seeing members of these boards discussing how the game has a weird, counter-intuitive stat and level up system, perhaps I could get some help or tips on how to build a character, so I don't screw myself over?

Don't take Alchemy or Security, they're traps. With Alchemy you can level it up by picking a metric dumpton of Grapes and Tomatos from Skingrad and turning them into "restore fatigue" potions (which incidentally can be sold for lots of money). With security you can either just learn the lockpick minigame's timing (which is pretty easy tbh) or get the unbreakable lockpick and just spam "force lock" until it opens.

Other than that, no real tips. The game is evenly balanced in the sense that nothing's so UP that you can't do anything... except Marksman, which sucks past level 3.

I figure I'll start off playing through the tutorial dungeon that warty mentioned in his last post to see if I like (or at least don't actively dislike) the melee combat. If I'm fine with it, I'll proceed with that and try to play an Eldritch Knight type - half melee, half magic, so I can see how both of those systems work. If I dislike the melee, I'll restart and go for a straight mage. So tips on how to build those types of characters would be much appreciated.

Pretty simple really: pick Destruction and grind the Mages' Guild until you get access to spellmaking. When you get spellmaking you just make some DOT spells (they're more mana efficient) and start owning face.

Also make sure to take Alteration because you want to be as lightly armored as possible, and you can make up for your armor by using Shield spells. Plus Feather spells are great for carrying lewts...

Also, if anyone knows exactly how to switch from the first-person to third-person views in the game, that'd be nice to know as well. I remember having trouble figuring that out in Fallout 3...

Click the analog sticks. I forget which one is 3rd person, but there's only two so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out XD The other one puts you in stealth.

Okay, I can see why taking non-combat skills as major abilities in a system like that would be a problem, but why not use the combat skills I'll use most often as major abilities? Unless enemies benefit more from leveling up than you do, wouldn't that be preferable, or at least just as good?

If you get the PC version, download Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul and then make your majors the skills you'll be using.

Without Oscuro's you level up very quickly and leveling up just makes fights boring. They're equally dangerous except that everyone has 100x the HP and 10x the damage... which means that you're just as likely to die... it just takes 10x as long for the fight to finish.

EDIT: I failed a Daedric quest because I was supposed to let the guy kill me without hitting him back. Little did I realize I had left on my 110% reflect damage gear, and the dude ends up killing himself so I fail the quest Funniest moment of the game for me.

Well that and seeing Ma'iq, but he wasn't nearly as clever as he was in Morrowind.

[warty goblin]

So then you can't really give me the sort of answer I'm looking for here then.

Yeah, sorry. I tried but honestly didn't feel I could deliver a satisfactory verdict for somebody else.

All right, better idea on how to figure out whether I'd be at all interested in Skyrim then: I'll try Oblivion. My brother owns a copy of the PC version, and I'm pretty sure he's not currently playing it, so he should be fine with letting me borrow it. According to canyourunit.com I should be able to run it unless it has problems with Windows 7 (anybody know if that's the case?). And if I have problems with it on my PC (or just find I don't like playing it on a keyboard and mouse for that matter) I know I have a friend who owns the 360 version and has offered to let me borrow games from him in the past, so I could try the game that way as well.

Seems to run fine on my copy of Win 7 64 bit.

Since I seem to recall seeing members of these boards discussing how the game has a weird, counter-intuitive stat and level up system, perhaps I could get some help or tips on how to build a character, so I don't screw myself over?

So Oblivion does things differently than other games.

The first thing you've got to understand is that you don't have a global pool of XP. Instead you increase your various skills by performing that skill. Hit dudes with swords a lot, you get better with swords, cast a lot of healing, you get better at that school of magic and so on. Sometimes what counts as using a skill is a bit weird, like you level light/heavy armor by getting hit while wearing it, or falling leveling acrobatics, but the basic idea is pretty simple.

Where this gets the first bit complicated is that you've still got attributes. Each skill is tied to a particular attribute, and each attribute governs three skills (except Luck, which adds to everything and doesn't govern any skills). For example strength governs the Hand to Hand, Blunt and Blade skills, and also does a lot to determine your melee damage, so if you plan on hitting things you want a high strength. Willpower determines how fast you regenerate Magicka (mana) and how big your fatigue bar is, and so on. Basically if you are going to use a skill a lot, you want the governing attribute to be high.

OK, now things start to go off the rails a bit. So even though you don't really collect XP, you still level up. See when you create a character you pick seven major skills. These start higher and advance faster than all the others, which are your minor skills. As soon as you advance your major skills a total of ten times - it doesn't matter how these are spread between them, you just need to advance ten times, you level up.

And here's where the potential to screw yourself over enters the picture. When you level up you get to increase three of your attributes, by a number ranging from 1 to 5 inclusive. How much you get to increase an attribute by is a function of how many times you've advanced the skills it governs. The more you increase the skills governed by an attribute, the higher the bonus you can add to it. Specifically your increase is (number of skill advances)/2 rounded down.

So if you level the hell out of your main skills, you will end up getting piddly little attribute bonuses, and this will make weak. This is bad, since the game levels everything to keep pace with you.

Now my personal experience is that while you need to take some steps to minimize this, you don't have to do anything so drastic as never taking something you plan to use as a major skill. It's not really necessary to get +5 every single level unless you insist on powergaming to the utmost. +4 is just fine, and even a +3 every now and again won't kill you. So shoot for getting about eight skill increases per attribute you care about per level, and you'll be fine. This does require using your minor skills, but most of the time it's easy to work this in pretty naturally. Basically just don't choose all three skills governed by a single attribute as your majors, and make sure not to ultra-specialize too much.

My usual technique is to choose 3 or so major skills that I plan on using, and put the rest into things I won't, making sure those three are in skills I'm going to really rely on. That way I get to advance reasonably fast, and end up making good use of my minor skills pretty naturally as I go along. The way I think of it is that my major skills are what I'm really good at, but I'm not playing an idiot savant with a sword, and having a broad range of abilities is useful. It's also fun to be able to tackle different problems as you see fit.

There's a few traps to avoid: Don't take Alchemy, Sneak, Speechcraft or Athletics as major skills. Alchemy is just too useful to ignore and is very easy to accidentally level up six times without noticing. Sneak advances very quickly, so somebody who uses it a lot will over-level it simply through playing the game, and sneaking is useful enough it'll level up pretty fast even if you aren't Mr. Stealth. You'll do a lot of talking, so again Speechcraft levels way too fast, and I at least run everywhere, which levels Athletics quickly, particularly at the beginning of the game.

I figure I'll start off playing through the tutorial dungeon that warty mentioned in his last post to see if I like (or at least don't actively dislike) the melee combat. If I'm fine with it, I'll proceed with that and try to play an Eldritch Knight type - half melee, half magic, so I can see how both of those systems work. If I dislike the melee, I'll restart and go for a straight mage. So tips on how to build those types of characters would be much appreciated.

I found the melee more enjoyable than the magic, which was basically playing a shooter with really slow projectiles and poor rate of fire combined with hotkey hell. But then I play melee in pretty much every RPG ever, even when it is demonstrably more boring, so maybe it's just me. Thanks to the strong/weak/block mechanics however I felt melee was reasonably dynamic and interesting. Not Dark Messiah I'll hit you in the neck until your head comes off interesting, but it got the job done.

Also, if anyone knows exactly how to switch from the first-person to third-person views in the game, that'd be nice to know as well. I remember having trouble figuring that out in Fallout 3...

Zevox

On PC scrolling the mousewheel does the trick.

[Zevox]

Okay, so I borrowed my brother's PC version, and played a little bit. Up to the point where the King dies and his guard is telling you that you'll have to trek through a sewer level with rat enemies next. (Yeah, boy did that bit of news not do anything to make me want to continue playing.)

So yeah, the mechanics (melee and general first-person) are all pretty much the ones I didn't like from Fallout 3, just with the block mechanic added in. Third-person perspective didn't help, especially since you still have to look around as if you were in first-person to do things like select chests to open or aim attacks anyway. Magic seemed slightly more interesting than melee, but it was quite annoying that it gets aimed fully manually and fired as if it were a gun in a shooter. Keyboard and mouse controls definitely weren't helping me there, nor was the fact that the crosshairs vanish when you go to third-person view for some reason.

I think I'll ask my friend about borrowing his 360 version to see if the change in controls helps me, since the whole keyboard-and-mouse thing was definitely a big problem for me, but yeah, not looking good to me.

Zevox

[Dhavaer]

So yeah, the mechanics (melee and general first-person) are all pretty much the ones I didn't like from Fallout 3, just with the block mechanic added in.

Fallout 3 has a block mechanic, albiet not one that comes up much due to presence of guns.

[ShinyRocks]

There's a few traps to avoid: Don't take Alchemy, Sneak, Speechcraft or Athletics as major skills. Alchemy is just too useful to ignore and is very easy to accidentally level up six times without noticing. Sneak advances very quickly, so somebody who uses it a lot will over-level it simply through playing the game, and sneaking is useful enough it'll level up pretty fast even if you aren't Mr. Stealth. You'll do a lot of talking, so again Speechcraft levels way too fast, and I at least run everywhere, which levels Athletics quickly, particularly at the beginning of the game.

It just always annoys me. I love that I can make exactly my own character with the skills I want, but it's so counterintuitive that if I'm making a sneaky, silver-tongued assassin and poisoner, I have to make sure that, like, heavy armour and blunt weapons are my class skills. It doesn't really matter in the long run, but it just grates.

[Triaxx]

I just took my primary skills anyway, and never leveled up. My characters, by the end of the game had slept perhaps twice, and both times for quests.

Because levelling up was bad.

[warty goblin]

It just always annoys me. I love that I can make exactly my own character with the skills I want, but it's so counterintuitive that if I'm making a sneaky, silver-tongued assassin and poisoner, I have to make sure that, like, heavy armour and blunt weapons are my class skills. It doesn't really matter in the long run, but it just grates.

I'll not deny the system is annoying and badly thought out. It's not the complete disaster people have decided it is over the last few years, but leveling up is not a strong point of the game.

Honestly I think just about the best thing they could do for Skyrim is to get rid of attributes altogether. Heretical I know, but they really don't add anything to the game. Hell, all you do in pretty much any RPG with attribute advancement is to pick like two of them, and put all your points into them as the game progresses. They don't meaningfully increase character customization since your options boil down to screw over character or don't screw over character.

In a game with skill use based advancement, just get rid of the suckers completely. Make your weapon damage a product of your skill with that weapon, toss in a couple point bonus to magicka every time you raise a magic related skill, stuff like that. Fortunately this seems to be the route they're taking.

[Eldan]

I think it makes some sense. I mean, training with swords will train your arm muscles, and that will make you better with other weapons.

[Name_Here]

Okay, I can see why taking non-combat skills as major abilities in a system like that would be a problem, but why not use the combat skills I'll use most often as major abilities? Unless enemies benefit more from leveling up than you do, wouldn't that be preferable, or at least just as good?

Zevox

Couple different reasons why you shouldn't have your main combat be a main skill.

#1 reason is that you lose the ability to level up when you want to making it more random. You see when you Level up you get to increase 3 of your stats. These stats are determined by what skills you have increased never more than +5. So in an optimal LU you could be increasing your stats by 15 per LU a huge amount. It isn't even that difficult to accomplish just note down each skill up and when you get to 5 for a stat move on to the next however this requires you not to LU halfway through increasing your skills which I believe freezes the stat bonuses. Having your most used skill not be a main skill keeps the decision to LU with you.

#2 Monsters get significantly more annoying as you level. If you don't optimize and just leap into each and every LU you will find yourself in fights where you take off slivers of damage off your opponents while they knock you down to half health with a single hit. Sure the first couple fights it's fun and exciting but when you can't go 3 steps without an enemy popping up it makes the game a terrible grind.

Those are my 2 reasons for why you shouldn't put your bread and butter into your main skill selection.

[ZombyWoof]

I'll not deny the system is annoying and badly thought out. It's not the complete disaster people have decided it is over the last few years, but leveling up is not a strong point of the game.

I hardly know anyone who thinks it's a "disaster." The system was fine in Morrowind and Daggerfall. The problem with it came not from the way level-up was done but from the way the "scaling" system in Oblibbions was run.

In fact, you're all doing it wrong. It's not Fallout, when you get the message "you should rest and meditate on what you've learned" you don't have to suddenly and instantly go to sleep leveling up, you know. You should try not spamming the "sleep" button going "giddygiddygiddy new level!" and instead what you should do is find some skill trainers for the minor skills that are related to the attributes you want to raise.

Let's say I'm an illusion-focused mage and I suddenly level up by raising Illusion 3 times, blade 5 times, and 2 times... but I really want to get my intelligence up. Ok so find a trainer for Alchemy, Conjuration, or Mysticism (I recommend Conjuration since there's 0 point in having that be a major skill anyways since it sucks). Between them get 10 skill ups. I'll also find a Speechcraft or Mercantile trainer and raise those skills 7 times total so I can get the illusive +5 personality. I mean you can only buy 5/level, but they start out so low there's no real reason not to. And if you're running Oscuros your minor skills have time to catch up too.

[Daremonai]

If you've already had ten advances, it's too late to go and train minors for a stat boost - they're already locked in for that level-up, and all you can do now is improve the next one.

[Leliel]

Before we continue, I want to state something here about the black, small-in-comparison-dragons:

The Jills are not actual dragons. They're aedric servants of Alduin.

The reason they're fighting you is because they want to pave the way for his burning of the world. Why he wants to burn the world is not known, but that's the plot for ya.

[ShadowFighter15]

Another thing they've said a lot is the difficulty scaling. It's going to be more like what they used in Fallout 3, where areas would have a level range and anyone in that area would scale only within that range.

So if an area scaled from levels 5 to 10, every enemy there would be level 5 if you were level 5 or below, equal to you while you were level 6 thru 10 and then they'd stop getting stronger once you hit level 11 because you're now above that area's scaling cap.

[Zevox]

...huh. So, it looks like I'm not going to get to try the console version of Oblivion. Turns out the friend I was planning on borrowing it from no longer has his copy, and the rental stores near me do not have any copies to rent. Obviously I'm not going to purchase a game I'm not really expecting to like, so... yeah.

Guess all I can do at this point is wait for Skyrim to come out and, if I hear the improvements to it cause the third-person perspective to actually play like a third-person game, give that a rent then.

Zevox

[Triaxx]

You could probably rent a copy off of Gamefly.

[Eldan]

Thing is, Oblivion isn't all that good a game. It's a framework to put mods on. Last time I played it, I had change levelling, skills, the combat system (including blocks, shield smashes, stabs, dismemberment and so on), the magic system (including a few hundred new kinds of spells), creatures (not auto-levelling, coming in groups, better AI, variation in looks between the same kind), quests, the landscape (unique landscape is the best mod out there, really, by far), cities (they are open to the world map now), landscape graphics, textures, character models and, well, probably everything else too.

[deuxhero]

Not I.


Everything I read about the game shows they, rather than correct thier mistakes and go back to Morrowind, Bethesda is making the game "dumber" than Oblivion was.

Guess all I can do at this point is wait for Skyrim to come out and, if I hear the improvements to it cause the third-person perspective to actually play like a third-person game, give that a rent then.

Zevox

Get Gothic and Gothic 2 gold. They are third person open world games, and they are better than Oblivion (except for mod support). They are likely cheeper too.

[Zevox]

You could probably rent a copy off of Gamefly.

That would require me to first purchase a Gamefly account though, something I'm not inclined to do. I don't rent games with anywhere near enough frequency for that kind of service to be worth it to me.

Zevox

[Triaxx]

Meh 30-day free trial is enough to experience it.

[Thrawn183]

Hah, I made a character with Atheletics and Acrobatics as major skills. That... ended poorly.

[ZombyWoof]

Not I.


Everything I read about the game shows they, rather than correct thier mistakes and go back to Morrowind, Bethesda is making the game "dumber" than Oblivion was.

MYSTICISM. BRING BACK MYSTICISM.

Also I love the in-game footage so far. We've got snowy forest, autumn forest, green forest, and tundra. Exactly the range of environment I was expecting.

[Eldan]

You know what would be nice? Actual seasons. I mean, they have ingame months already.

Though that would probably be too much of an effort/resource eater.