Magic the Gathering X: Deal X damage to target thread.

[tgva8889]

Planeswalkers can also act as expensive sorceries that leave a potentially game-winning Engine token on the battlefield. Oblivion Ring is a less-than-ideal answer because it just trades for the token.

Sometimes it's necessary, however. O-ring also provides an answer to a lot of other problem permanents. (Tempered Steel, for example. Also Batterskull. Just to name a few.) It's not the best, but I imagine that Caw-Blade would be a bit easier to fight if Oblivion Ring were around. Maybe not enough, but at least more than the little we did have.

Also, a lot of those expensive sorceries just suck. You don't gain value, necessarily...unless you consider mana advantage value. It shuts down a threat, despite them gaining advantage out of it already. It's like killing a Titan. Sure, they gained advantage out of it already, but imagine how much you'd be losing if you hadn't killed it.

[Squark]

Planeswalkers can also act as expensive sorceries that leave a potentially game-winning Engine token on the battlefield. Oblivion Ring is a less-than-ideal answer because it just trades for the token.

I have to agree with you here. Just about every planeswalker has at least one awesome effect that is worth only one or two mana less than their CMC (except, ironicly, for the Jaces. But Jace B was a delayed Concentrate for 3 mana, and Jace TMS... has been talked to death), and they stayed around.


I wouldn't say oblivion ring is a bad answer to planeswalkers... It's just that, aside from pithing needle, discard spells, and counter spells, there isn't really a good answer. Planeswalkers are Card Advantage incarnate. You can either waste a card dealing with something that's often already done it's duty, or it buries you in card advantage.

[BladeofOblivion]

I'm sort of sad that Silence is going to be rotating out with M12. I've lost count of the number of times that little card have bought me the precious time I needed to push that final few damage through by delaying their fatty/planewalker drop by a turn or two.

I love silence. Thankfully, it'll stay in casual. It's hilarious with Isochron Scepter.

[ZombyWoof]

Planeswalkers can also act as expensive sorceries that leave a potentially game-winning Engine token on the battlefield. Oblivion Ring is a less-than-ideal answer because it just trades for the token.

Oblivion Ring is a very good card. The two-mana Journey to Nowhere is a bad card. That should tell you how important hitting a planeswalker for 1 more mana is.

[Suedars]

Oblivion Ring is a very good card. The two-mana Journey to Nowhere is a bad card. That should tell you how important hitting a planeswalker for 1 more mana is.

Yeah, generally O-Ringing a PW after they used a + ability way fine. Gideon's was irrelevant, Elspeth's make a dude didn't do much, and Ajani V's wasn't that big a deal.

[ZombyWoof]

Most importantly, it is a limited answer to planeswalkers... is a common... and there will be three packs of them!

EDIT: The more I play with Jacey B the more I love him. Dont' print this craptastic new jace! bring back the 3 mana walker!

[IthilanorStPete]

Uncommon. They didn't want it to overlap too much with Pacificism at common.

[tgva8889]

I wouldn't say oblivion ring is a bad answer to planeswalkers... It's just that, aside from pithing needle, discard spells, and counter spells, there isn't really a good answer. Planeswalkers are Card Advantage incarnate. You can either waste a card dealing with something that's often already done it's duty, or it buries you in card advantage.

Not always. Depends on the Planeswalker. All the Blue ones will, but that's because Blue is the best color in the game for card advantage and all the repeatable + effects you can give a Blue Planeswalker are broken or card drawing (or in the case of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, both). Apparently. Most of the other Planeswalkers aren't that much advantage unless they're not building up to an Ultimate. In fact, Sorin and new Planeswalkers are probably the only non-Blue walkers that really generate huge advantage when only using + abilities, and both cost a lot of mana. Just looking at the other ones, the only ones that come close are Liliana and Karn. Maybe my judgment of card advantage is off. I guess it depends on the matchup how much Elspeth's 1/1 matters, for example.

It's more often that you're going to waste an Attack Step dealing with a Planeswalker that's provided advantage than wasting a spell. As with the Titan example, it's better to stop Garruk from swarming you with 3/3s rather than allow him to get out of control. Sure, they get a 3/3 out of the deal, but better that than even more 3/3s.

[The Extinguisher]

M12:

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I'm playing Pyromancer Ascension between M12 and Innistrad. Ponder and Preordain and so many blue spells!

[Suedars]

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Yeah, Pyro Ascension is looking really strong right now. It's got just about everything that made it good last summer, except for Time Warp (which I always thought was overrated). But now it's also got Tezzeret's Gambit and Gitaxian Probe to turn on Ascension.

My only worry is that RDW will be a large portion of the metagame thanks to stuff like Lavamancer, since fast agro wrecks Pyro.

[tgva8889]

You could play PyroTwin.

[Suedars]

I haven't tested it at all, but pyrotwin just seems super awkward. You lose Spellskite to protect your Exarch, but have a bunch of random creatures and auras clogging up your hands and slowing down your Ascension. It seems like you'd be better off just running one or the other.

Maybe Spellskite makes the board, since it can protect Ascension from Nature's Claim, but then that's even more dead cards for Ascension.

[Suedars]

Also, a random thought I just had: Now that Consecrated Sphinx is seeing quite a bit of play in control, is boarding in Act of Aggression against them worth it? If you Act in response to them putting their draw 2 trigger on the stack, you get to draw 4, right?

Even acting a Grave Titan or Sun Titan is pretty good.

[BladeofOblivion]

Also, a random thought I just had: Now that Consecrated Sphinx is seeing quite a bit of play in control, is boarding in Act of Aggression against them worth it? If you Act in response to them putting their draw 2 trigger on the stack, you get to draw 4, right?

Even acting a Grave Titan or Sun Titan is pretty good.

Considering it can singlehandedly turn a game around against several deck types, I'd maindeck it, even. Of course, I don't exactly have the best track record of wise deckbuilding choices, so take with a grain of salt.

Still, considering it can stop Decievertwin for a turn, injure control in the method you described above, and kidnap your opponent's beater against Aggro...

Yeah...

[Sohala]

Assuming the Exarch is Twinned, and has just activated its ability, making a token come into play, and that the player decided to target it for untap (which they should), and lastly, that they don't have some way to stop it, Act would actually win the game for you next turn.

[BladeofOblivion]

Assuming the Exarch is Twinned, and has just activated its ability, making a token come into play, and that the player decided to target it for untap (which they should), and lastly, that they don't have some way to stop it, Act would actually win the game for you next turn.

Yeah, my half-asleep brain put For a turn instead of In a turn. Big difference there.

[Stone Heart]

Oh no, I just noticed that one of my favorite cards has not been revealed for M12, the Platinum Angel. Say it aint so! I have not seen a full list of spoilers, so if anyone can correct me here please do.

[BladeofOblivion]

Oh no, I just noticed that one of my favorite cards has not been revealed for M12, the Platinum Angel. Say it aint so! I have not seen a full list of spoilers, so if anyone can correct me here please do.

Sorry, but it doesn't seem to be in Wizards' complete spoiler on the M12 Minisite.

[tgva8889]

Note that the spoiler on the M12 site isn't actually complete yet.

Also, self-notes:

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• New "dies" terminology appears on 4 cards currently revealed. Guess they decided to do this now instead of later?
• Arachnus Web says "destroy", not "sacrifice." I'm sure there's some way to break that.

[BladeofOblivion]

Note that the spoiler on the M12 site isn't actually complete yet.

Also, self-notes:

Spoiler

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• New "dies" terminology appears on 4 cards currently revealed. Guess they decided to do this now instead of later?
• Arachnus Web says "destroy", not "sacrifice." I'm sure there's some way to break that.

Oh, my mistake then.

[Wraith]

Sorry to tear the conversation away from 2012 for a moment, but it's just a quick question that will be easily answered, I'm sure.

I'm currently having a lot of fun with a UB Milling deck - lots of Mind Funeral+Twinstrike followed by Nemesis of Reason+Haunting Echoes and a few other obvious tricks - and I'd like you to recommend an interesting U &/or B "Commander" that fits that theme.
Not that it's a EDH or Commander-style deck, but I always like to build with a Legendary creature if I can, just to tie it all to a theme and act like the deck's general in the little story that I have in my head.

I currently have Circu, Dimir Lobotomist tucked away as a place holder, as much as anything, but I'd like to be using something a little more.... "Epic", if you'll forgive such a vague term. What do you think - is there a perfect card out there for me, or am I just being greedy?

[BladeofOblivion]

Sorry to tear the conversation away from 2012 for a moment, but it's just a quick question that will be easily answered, I'm sure.

I'm currently having a lot of fun with a UB Milling deck - lots of Mind Funeral+Twinstrike followed by Nemesis of Reason+Haunting Echoes and a few other obvious tricks - and I'd like you to recommend an interesting U &/or B "Commander" that fits that theme.
Not that it's a EDH or Commander-style deck, but I always like to build with a Legendary creature if I can, just to tie it all to a theme and act like the deck's general in the little story that I have in my head.

I currently have Circu, Dimir Lobotomist tucked away as a place holder, as much as anything, but I'd like to be using something a little more.... "Epic", if you'll forgive such a vague term. What do you think - is there a perfect card out there for me, or am I just being greedy?

Szadek, Lord of Secrets?

[tgva8889]

Oona, Queen of the Fae is also a fantastic choice.

[Penguinizer]

I decided to remove the ooze combo from my EDH. It just didn't work out. Here's the newest build.

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General: The Mimeoplasm

Lands:
2 Swamp
3 Island
4 Forest
Terramorphic Expanse
Evolving Wilds
Windswept Heath
Verdant Catacombs
Wooded Foothills
Misty Rainforest
Seat of Synod
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Command Tower
Rupture Spire
Llanowar Wastes
Jwar Isle Refuge
Overgrown Tomb
Temple of the False Gods
Vesuva
Creeping Tarpit
Treetop Village
Mishra's Factory
Barren Moor
Lonely Sandbar
Tranquil Thicket
Polluted Mire
Slippery Karst
Yavimaya Hollow
Mystifying Maze
Dust Bowl
Wasteland
Stripmine
Bojuka Bog

Mana things:
Krosan Tusker
Yavimaya Elder
Kodama's Reach
Thran Dynamo
Sol Ring
Coalition Relic
the mana chalice from zendikar block.

Card Drawing:
Damia, Sage of Stone
Windfall
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Phyrexian Arena
Fact or Fiction
Mulldrifter

Tutor Effects:
Sylvan Library
Sensei's Divining Top
Fauna Shaman
Demonic Tutor
Worldly Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Buried Alive
Trinket Mage

Mass Removal:
Black Sun's Zenith
Kederekt Leviathan
Decree of Pain
Damnation
Oblivion Stone

Permanent Removal/other hate:
Acidic Slime
Woodfall Primus
Indrik Stomphowler
Wickerbough Elder
Relic of Progenitus
Maelstorm Pulse
Krosan Grip
Capsize

Creature Removal:
Phyrexian Ingester
Shriekmaw
Avatar of Woe
Triskelion

Equipment:
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Lightning Greaves

Grave Recursion:
Animate Dead
Artisan of Kozilek
Eternal Witness
Regrowth
Mimic Vat
Necromancy
Tortured Existence
Living Death
Life from the Loam
Crucible of Worlds
Sheoldred, Whispering One

Utility:
Wonder
Solemn Simulacrum
Primal Command
Necrotic Ooze
Phyrexian Metamorph

Wincons:
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Worm Harvest
Sundering Titan

Still to add: Mystical Teachings, Survival of the Fittest, Intuition, Evacuation/similar effect. The manabase is still WIP

Cards to remove: Birthing Pod, Windfall.

[ZombyWoof]

Not always. Depends on the Planeswalker. All the Blue ones will, but that's because Blue is the best color in the game for card advantage and all the repeatable + effects you can give a Blue Planeswalker are broken or card drawing (or in the case of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, both). Apparently. Most of the other Planeswalkers aren't that much advantage unless they're not building up to an Ultimate. In fact, Sorin and new Planeswalkers are probably the only non-Blue walkers that really generate huge advantage when only using + abilities, and both cost a lot of mana. Just looking at the other ones, the only ones that come close are Liliana and Karn. Maybe my judgment of card advantage is off. I guess it depends on the matchup how much Elspeth's 1/1 matters, for example.

Gideon Jura locks games out using his + ability. Nicol Bolas creates
advantage. Ajani Vengeant is basically Frost Titan. Nissa makes 2/3s. Most planeswalkers have influence on the board, and it's a rare exception that they don't... and without exception either those planeswalkers generate massive card advantage quickly or they're just not very good.

It's more often that you're going to waste an Attack Step dealing with a Planeswalker that's provided advantage than wasting a spell. As with the Titan example, it's better to stop Garruk from swarming you with 3/3s rather than allow him to get out of control. Sure, they get a 3/3 out of the deal, but better that than even more 3/3s.

And even then, they paid 5 mana for a 3/3. That's somewhat short of "impressive."

[Mr._Blinky]

And even then, they paid 5 mana for a 3/3. That's somewhat short of "impressive."

Well, they paid 5 mana for a 3/3 and a reprieve from being attacked that turn, or sucking up a burn/destruction spell. It's like "2GGG: Put a 3/3 token onto the battlefield, and then Fog." Okay, not exactly, but the benefits of a turn of no damage as they deal with your walker are definitely more than nothing.

[Suedars]

Gideon Jura locks games out using his + ability. Nicol Bolas creates
advantage. Ajani Vengeant is basically Frost Titan. Nissa makes 2/3s. Most planeswalkers have influence on the board, and it's a rare exception that they don't... and without exception either those planeswalkers generate massive card advantage quickly or they're just not very good.

Wasn't this in the context of trading O-Rings for PWs? So Gideon's + will have no effect if you O-Ring him pre-combat. Ajani V's is annoying for a turn, but doesn't create a lasting impact. Nissa's is actually pretty good, but nobody ever plays her. And Bolas is 8 mana, so he gets a pass.

And even then, they paid 5 mana for a 3/3. That's somewhat short of "impressive."

5 mana for a 3/3 and baiting an O-Ring out of your hand.

[Suedars]

I decided to remove the ooze combo from my EDH. It just didn't work out. Here's the newest build.

Spoiler

Show

General: The Mimeoplasm

Lands:
2 Swamp
3 Island
4 Forest
Terramorphic Expanse
Evolving Wilds
Windswept Heath
Verdant Catacombs
Wooded Foothills
Misty Rainforest
Seat of Synod
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Command Tower
Rupture Spire
Llanowar Wastes
Jwar Isle Refuge
Overgrown Tomb
Temple of the False Gods
Vesuva
Creeping Tarpit
Treetop Village
Mishra's Factory
Barren Moor
Lonely Sandbar
Tranquil Thicket
Polluted Mire
Slippery Karst
Yavimaya Hollow
Mystifying Maze
Dust Bowl
Wasteland
Stripmine
Bojuka Bog

Mana things:
Krosan Tusker
Yavimaya Elder
Kodama's Reach
Thran Dynamo
Sol Ring
Coalition Relic
the mana chalice from zendikar block.

Card Drawing:
Damia, Sage of Stone
Windfall
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Phyrexian Arena
Fact or Fiction
Mulldrifter

Tutor Effects:
Sylvan Library
Sensei's Divining Top
Fauna Shaman
Demonic Tutor
Worldly Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Buried Alive
Trinket Mage

Mass Removal:
Black Sun's Zenith
Kederekt Leviathan
Decree of Pain
Damnation
Oblivion Stone

Permanent Removal/other hate:
Acidic Slime
Woodfall Primus
Indrik Stomphowler
Wickerbough Elder
Relic of Progenitus
Maelstorm Pulse
Krosan Grip
Capsize

Creature Removal:
Phyrexian Ingester
Shriekmaw
Avatar of Woe
Triskelion

Equipment:
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Lightning Greaves

Grave Recursion:
Animate Dead
Artisan of Kozilek
Eternal Witness
Regrowth
Mimic Vat
Necromancy
Tortured Existence
Living Death
Life from the Loam
Crucible of Worlds
Sheoldred, Whispering One

Utility:
Wonder
Solemn Simulacrum
Primal Command
Necrotic Ooze
Phyrexian Metamorph

Wincons:
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Worm Harvest
Sundering Titan

Still to add: Mystical Teachings, Survival of the Fittest, Intuition, Evacuation/similar effect. The manabase is still WIP

Cards to remove: Birthing Pod, Windfall.

I wouldn't run Relic in a deck this heavily gy based, since it nukes your own. Go for Nihil Spellbomb instead.

[Foeofthelance]

Assuming the Exarch is Twinned, and has just activated its ability, making a token come into play, and that the player decided to target it for untap (which they should), and lastly, that they don't have some way to stop it, Act would actually win the game for you next turn.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just respond to the casting of Splinter Twin? Granted, that pretty much means passing turn 3, but if you're going to steal their kill combo for turn 4 anyway...

[tgva8889]

With Act of Aggression, you just kill them, since you get to make a billion tokens during your End Step before you return the Exarch. Right? Just making sure I'm seeing the rules right. Man, Act of Aggression is great in Standard now.