Magic the Gathering X: Deal X damage to target thread.

[Frankelshtein]

I'm not sure of Wizard's reasoning on some of the others, but they may have skipped out on Akroma because Divine vs. Demonic gave her a foil, alt-art reprint.

The others do seem like missed opportunities, though. Also, I think much of the new art seems underwhelming because the original art was really good (the Shards legends especially).

[arguskos]

To be fair, very few of the Legendary Creatures from Ravnica really had any major influence. Niv-Mizzet did, but he was already in a FtV, and most of the others were just totally unplayed. Phage should have been in there, though, and it's an absolute shame that Phage got cut for Visara the Dreadful (as awesome as she is). Silvos missing was more understandable, though, as Silvos really never got to do very much.

And how much play has Kresh seen? Or Omnath outside of janky bull**** (he's crazy fun and in my top three green legends but really let's be honest here)?

I think adding Ghost Council or Grand Arbiter Augustin IV would have been a good call over Kresh or something.

As for Silvos, man, screw WotC. Silvos is awesome. /selfdenial

The only reason I can see Akroma not making it into FtV: Legends is if FtV: Angels is already in the pipeline. It just doesn't make any sense otherwise.

Dear god I hope not. Surely, there's something better than Angels in the pipe. Maybe Hominids.

[tgva8889]

And how much play has Kresh seen? Or Omnath outside of janky bull**** (he's crazy fun and in my top three green legends but really let's be honest here)?

I think adding Ghost Council or Grand Arbiter Augustin IV would have been a good call over Kresh or something.

As for Silvos, man, screw WotC. Silvos is awesome. /selfdenial


Dear god I hope not. Surely, there's something better than Angels in the pipe. Maybe Hominids.

Commander. Kresh is, like, the 2nd or 3rd most popular Commander. Omnath is one of the most popular Mono-Green generals.

That said, yes, Ghost Council would have been way more awesome than several of the cards in FtV, I totally forgot about him. Grand Arbiter Augustin IV is a silly card that should never be reprinted. Isperia would be cool, though.

I don't think Divine vs. Demonic should be a good enough reason not to reprint cards. I mean, as cool as the Akroma from Divine vs. Demonic is, I'd still appreciate having real Legends in my FtV: Legends pack.

[arguskos]

Commander. Kresh is, like, the 2nd or 3rd most popular Commander. Omnath is one of the most popular Mono-Green generals.

Omnath I can see, but Kresh is seriously that popular in EDH? I tried him a few times when he was released, and found him underwhelming. Good colors though.

Are there some official stats on EDH play usage now? That'd be an interesting read.

That said, yes, Ghost Council would have been way more awesome than several of the cards in FtV, I totally forgot about him. Grand Arbiter Augustin IV is a silly card that should never be reprinted. Isperia would be cool, though.

The Gruul Hellion/Hydra guy would have been awesome to see as well. Ghost Council should have made it though.

I don't think Divine vs. Demonic should be a good enough reason not to reprint cards. I mean, as cool as the Akroma from Divine vs. Demonic is, I'd still appreciate having real Legends in my FtV: Legends pack.

Agreed. If they do a FtV: Demons, I expect to see Lord of the Pit with that art in there (seriously, that art makes me want to play Lord of the Pit just to see that art in play it's so lovely).

[tgva8889]

From the Official EDH forums. There's more data elsewhere, but Kresh is incredibly popular among Commander circles.

[arguskos]

From the Official EDH forums. There's more data elsewhere, but Kresh is incredibly popular among Commander circles.

That list is 99% unsurprising. Kresh and Kemba are the only two that surprise me. Kresh just isn't that great as a guy, though his colors are fantastic. Kemba... I just don't understand why you'd run a EDH deck with Kemba. There's got to be something more useful than her, especially cause she basically reads "I am a big fat target for sweeping/removal", both of which are stupidly common in the format.

[Foeofthelance]

I think part of the deal with FtV: Legends is that they also tried to pick plot relevant legends as well as playable/desired ones. I'm not entirely familiar with all the cards, but Kresh, Progenitus, Rafiq, Sisay, Tafiri, Sharuum, Oona, and Ulamog have all been key players in the meta plots behind the sets, with most, if not all, of them also having appeared in the companion novels. I would not be at all surprised is Mikaeus also turns out to be in the next book.

[tgva8889]

That list is 99% unsurprising. Kresh and Kemba are the only two that surprise me. Kresh just isn't that great as a guy, though his colors are fantastic. Kemba... I just don't understand why you'd run a EDH deck with Kemba. There's got to be something more useful than her, especially cause she basically reads "I am a big fat target for sweeping/removal", both of which are stupidly common in the format.

Because actually both of those aren't any more stupidly common than they usually are, and because an unanswered Kemba is impossibly hard to beat. A deck that consists of Kemba, 40 lands, and 59 Equipment isn't even a bad deck, and you'll actually pull some powerful turns with it if done correctly.

Seriously, people don't play that much removal or Wraths in Commander. Most people don't play more than 6 or 7 Wraths in their Commander deck, which is statistically less than playing 4 Day of Judgments in a 60 card deck. People don't play that many targeted "Kill a creature" spells, despite the fact that chances are they probably should.

Kresh is actually really powerful. Big, dumb creatures aren't actually that awful in EDH, especially if your big dumb creature only needs to deal 21 damage to kill someone. Kresh can have amazingly high power, and is very easy to pump up at any given moment.

[arguskos]

Because actually both of those aren't any more stupidly common than they usually are, and because an unanswered Kemba is impossibly hard to beat. A deck that consists of Kemba, 40 lands, and 59 Equipment isn't even a bad deck, and you'll actually pull some powerful turns with it if done correctly.

Ok, now, I can see how Kemba gets scary, but so does Zur the Enchanter and I didn't notice him on that list (actually, Zur gets scary after like two attacks and can neutralize pesky board problems to boot).

I do want to try out Kemba in an EDH deck now. Perhaps R/W with Jor Kadeen.

Also... why in god's name are you playing FORTY lands?! Dear god man, do you only want to draw mana?!

Seriously, people don't play that much removal or Wraths in Commander. Most people don't play more than 6 or 7 Wraths in their Commander deck, which is statistically less than playing 4 Day of Judgments in a 60 card deck. People don't play that many targeted "Kill a creature" spells, despite the fact that chances are they probably should.

I'm not sure who you're playing with, but in the 5-6 years I've been playing mainly EDH, yeah, removal is pretty god damn common. I've run into multiple decks from multiple players that ran 8-12 sweepers of varying kinds (from "destroy all critters" to "RFG everything" to "damage everything for #" to "-#/-# to everything") and this is across generals and colors. Only mono-green doesn't really bother, cause mono-green is honestly pretty terrible (doesn't stop me from running Silvos anyways ).

Everyone I've known plays a large number of target removal and a solid number of sweepers. Given that EDH is a format where every player is GUARANTEED to have a terrifying threat at their fingertips all game long, anyone who doubts that removal is king isn't paying enough attention. Kemba is not at much at risk as Kresh is, due to there being many artifacts to protect her with, but generals like Kresh that cost a reasonable amount, don't do anything natively, have no evasion or protection, and aren't so absurd they automatically win when you land them are an issue for me.

My bet remains that Kresh is played because he's the best and most accessible legend in his colors (the only challengers are Darigaaz, who's not that amazing in EDH, Karrthus, who is situation but could be game-ending, and Sek'Kuar, who is fairly obscure).

Kresh is actually really powerful. Big, dumb creatures aren't actually that awful in EDH, especially if your big dumb creature only needs to deal 21 damage to kill someone. Kresh can have amazingly high power, and is very easy to pump up at any given moment.

Yes, BSFs (Big Stupid Fighters) work in EDH, but again, in a format where removal is king, I have concerns about riding one's hopes on a general with no protection, no evasion, and who has no abilities that can function alone. I don't disagree that he can work, just that he's super-amazing. I'd rather have Sek'Kuar and a grave-based deck, personally.

[Suedars]

I don't really see those rationales as being different enough to matter. All they're saying is "We aren't going to reprint these cards just because someone somewhere cares about changing the price of those cards." Whether they say it one way or another, fact of the matter is reprinting cards both upsets and pleases people. It's safer to maintain status quo, as people are still happy enough to play the game.

For older staples that's what they're saying. For Xiahou Dun, MaRo acknowledged that he fit the criteria of what they want in a FtV:Legends card, and the community obviously wants it, but its high price stopped it from being printed.

In one case they're ambivalent about a reprint, and they ignore the secondary market, which is (arguably) the only reason it needs reprinting, so they don't reprint it.

In the other they acknowledge that it'd make a good reprint, and would make the product wildly popular, but its price stops them from doing the reprint.

In the first case they're ignoring the secondary market in their decision making, in the second they're giving it complete sway over their decision making.

Anyways, it looks like we won't need to worry about getting Jaces for Modern, since WotC has just announced that PT Philly will be Modern, and will have the most ridiculously restrictive banlist ever:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...y/feature/155a

So they've basically banned UW Stoneforge, Faeries, Scapeshift, Hypergenesis, Elves, Affinity, Dredge, and Thopter Depths.

Some of those decks make sense (Hypergenesis, Thopter Depths, Dredge, arguably Elves), but none of UW, Faeries, Scapeshift, or Affinity have been doing overly well in the several months of weekly Overextended events (Faeries and Scapeshift have both been completely absent from top 8s). Why bother releasing a new format if you're just going to snap-ban half the decks in it when they don't really seem to need it?

[arguskos]

Anyways, it looks like we won't need to worry about getting Jaces for Modern, since WotC has just announced that PT Philly will be Modern, and will have the most ridiculously restrictive banlist ever:

Woah, a new format I didn't even know about! I've been out a year or so and I miss a new format? Damn. Looks fun, though that banlist is harsh. Sucks to see that Sword of the Meek was finally banned. I loved that deck.

[Suedars]

Woah, a new format I didn't even know about! I've been out a year or so and I miss a new format? Damn. Looks fun, though that banlist is harsh. Sucks to see that Sword of the Meek was finally banned. I loved that deck.

This is the big official announcement for the new format, so you didn't miss much. It was also an unofficial format (with a banlist half the size) earlier this summer for the Community Cup, and the community has been running weekly Overextended, a similar community created format, tournaments online for the last couple months.

[arguskos]

This is the big official announcement for the new format, so you didn't miss much. It was also an unofficial format (with a banlist half the size) earlier this summer for the Community Cup, and the community has been running weekly Overextended, a similar community created format, tournaments online for the last couple months.

Well, ok then. Good timing, I guess. It includes some of my favorite sets ever, so it can't be a bad thing overall.

[The Extinguisher]

Man, that banlist is almost as big a legacy.

Although it'll be interesting to see what kind of decks come out of it. But wow, that's crazy.

[Suedars]

Yes, BSFs (Big Stupid Fighters) work in EDH, but again, in a format where removal is king, I have concerns about riding one's hopes on a general with no protection, no evasion, and who has no abilities that can function alone. I don't disagree that he can work, just that he's super-amazing. I'd rather have Sek'Kuar and a grave-based deck, personally.

Huh? With Voltron generals like Kresh generally your number 1 priority is powering out ways to protect your general (Darksteel Plate, Lightning Greaves).

[arguskos]

Huh? With Voltron generals like Kresh generally your number 1 priority is powering out ways to protect your general (Darksteel Plate, Lightning Greaves).

Yeah, but I just dislike generals that don't DO something on their own. On his own, Kresh isn't amazing. Compare this to Xira Arien, who does something, or Adun Oakenshield, who does something.

Admittedly, this is a pretty personal dislike. Again, I'm not saying Kresh is BAD, just that I don't understand why he's so damn popular.

[Suedars]

Yeah, but I just dislike generals that don't DO something on their own. On his own, Kresh isn't amazing. Compare this to Xira Arien, who does something, or Adun Oakenshield, who does something.

Admittedly, this is a pretty personal dislike. Again, I'm not saying Kresh is BAD, just that I don't understand why he's so damn popular.

He does do something on his own. He can get removed and stopped sure (and so can Adun and Xira), but he still does something.

And card availability is a big reason why Kresh is way more popular than generals from Legends.

[tgva8889]

That and Kresh is just super easy to abuse. You can play a deck that's literally Kresh and cards to abuse him, it's not that hard.

It depends on the group, but generally there's only so much space to play Wrath effects and removal. It's very easy to just beat the Wraths and removal with reanimation or recursion or not playing creatures that matter (maybe you play enchantments and artifacts) and also do whatever your own deck is trying to do. Wraths and removal are good, but there's tons of ways around them.

And actually, 40 lands is the correct number of lands to play in an EDH deck based on pure statistics. If you want to play 2/5ths land, which is generally correct, 40 of your 100 cards should be Land.

And actually, yes, I would love to draw only land in EDH. It means I get to cast my General and all my large spells.

[Fable Wright]

And actually, yes, I would love to draw only land in EDH. It means I get to cast my General and all my large spells.

...But if you only drew land, unless your general fetched large spells, you would be unable to cast said large spells.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Also, remember that not every commander deck actually needs to use it's commander to be effective and win. While that may not be the case for Kresh, I know that in my commander deck Nicol Bolas dose not like to show his face until control is established and the board is stable/tilted in my favor. My deck can function just fine without my commander in play and can continue to do well enough when he's been removed somehow.

This is, however, because I run control...I simply use Nicol Bolas as a "finisher"....he's of use to me, but not intragril to my deck since the vast bulk of my cards are either counters, removal or draw/tutors(I also have a bit of reanimation and creature theft for good measure...and of course mana-fixing...though that's assumed to be in any EDH deck.)...and I have other finishers besides Bolas(all of which are dragons..)....

Kresh, however, is a different case. Unlike Bolas who usually just sits in his "meditation realm"(AKA the command zone) and lets his powerful magics do most the work for him, Kresh is practically calling for a deck that abuses his effect rather then just his color-identity. This is a bit of an issue, but with the right protection Kresh can be deadly. Yes, he can be removed easily without something like a darksteel plate, but every EDH group is different. While some people play in groups with lots of removal, some groups may play less. There are all kinds of EDH players out there. There are people who pack their decks full of counterspells and there are EDH groups that actually ban the use of counterspells in their games. So, while some people may play with decks packed full of wrath effects, others may play with a minimal amount or none at all and it is in groups that have primarily the latter that a general like Kresh becomes extremely powerful.

So, yeah, Kresh is easy to kill, but he's still extremely powerful and a great commander and in many groups he may stick around longer then he would in one with tons of board wipes and removal.

[Bucky]

...But if you only drew land, unless your general fetched large spells, you would be unable to cast said large spells.

The Kemba deck's gameplan is to repeatedly cast Kemba and throw as many equipments as possible on her in the same turn. Both become a large mana sink.

[arguskos]

Re: Kresh: Again, I understand the theory behind why he is a solid general, but I don't understand why he is so popular. Likely, it's as someone said above, and because he's recent. That, and he has strong colors. I still don't like him terribly much.

Re: Land: Soooo, you run 40 land. Do you run any mana artifacts or other acceleration?

[Fable Wright]

The Kemba deck's gameplan is to repeatedly cast Kemba and throw as many equipments as possible on her in the same turn. Both become a large mana sink.

No, I was replying to this, not the Kemba deck specifically. And given that if you drew only lands and no equipment, my point still stands...

And actually, yes, I would love to draw only land in EDH. It means I get to cast my General and all my large spells.

[Suedars]

I don't understand why he is so popular.

I think you're letting this bit could your vision:

I still don't like him terribly much.

[arguskos]

I think you're letting this bit could your vision:

Yeah, somewhat, but I just don't believe he is THAT powerful or amazing. Like I said, I've tried him in a few different decks in the past and never found him to be super-amazing. Certainly not so good that he can top the usage charts.

Is he good? Sure, not denying that. I just am having issues understanding how he's topping the usage charts. *shrug* Just one old player's confusion. Don't mind me.

[tgva8889]

Re: Land: Soooo, you run 40 land. Do you run any mana artifacts or other acceleration?

Well, more accurately, I run 39 lands in most of my decks, but yes, I run mana rocks and other forms of acceleration, generally between 6 and 8 cards depending on the deck. You pretty much need to in EDH. But I keep hands with 7 lands because frankly, you win more games that way. Mana is super-important in EDH. I've played many games where my opponent casts Bribery and finds a Solemn Simulacrum because that's the best card they could find there. I've won games where I keep 6 land Solemn hands, because having mana is that important. It doesn't matter how many awesome spells you play if you can't cast them, and that's why I play the proper number of lands for my deck size, which is 40. Some decks play even more (and they very well should). Land is super important, and if your plan is to cast a bunch of spells that cost more than 7, like a lot of EDH decks, you better have enough mana to back up that plan.

Also, depending on the deck, only drawing lands would still let me cast my General until it got Hindered or Condemned or something. I'd also be playing enough lands with abilities that I'd still be able to do something useful and have an effect on the game. Meanwhile, the player who draws nothing but spells and finds he can't cast them off his 4 lands (has happened more than once in games I've been in) just sits there and does nothing until someone just kills him. You can't skimp on lands unless your deck has a super-low mana curve. This is basic Magic theory.

Edit: Kresh is also really good in a Wrath-filled environment, since all he needs to do is survive 1 Wrath effect and suddenly he can maim anyone at the table. Very few creatures are more powerful than a Kresh with a Darksteel Plate/Shield of Kaldra post-Wrath.

[arguskos]

You can't skimp on lands unless your deck has a super-low mana curve. This is basic Magic theory.

Of course it is. Hell, I've been playing Magic since 1994/1995, I know these things.

I was just surprised to hear you say you ran 40 actual LANDS, which is a little high IMO. I tend to run 36-37 and around 6-8 pieces of accel, which has only let me down when someone is all "SUP GUYS HOW ABOUT GEDDON KKKYEAAAAAAAAH" which is pretty rare in EDH (and actually got one guy banned from one of our groups, cause he was a **** about mass land destruction every game and was no fun to play with). And really, it's a rare EDH deck of any kind that can endure repeated mass LD (though it can be done, of course). Notably I'm only talking about mana-producing lands here. I don't count stuff like Maze of Ith, Arena, Safe Haven, etc as lands, more as spells that cost nothing. If you're calling it 40 lands including those non-producing, then I'm fully on board.

I'm sad I sold my collection last year though. It'd be nice to have again, so I can really build stuff, rather than relying on M12 and f***ing Scars block. Seriously, this is depressing. Why can't I have Kamigawa, Ravnica, Alara, or Zendikar back dammit? I'd take Time Spiral too. Oh well, the price of regret and all that.

[Lix Lorn]

I was furious. Time Spiral block was my favourite idea like, ever, yet the entire cycle was not stocked in my local shops.

[arguskos]

I was furious. Time Spiral block was my favourite idea like, ever, yet the entire cycle was not stocked in my local shops.

That's the saddest thing I've heard all day. You've my sympathies. TS block was fantastic (even if it did introduce 'goyf).

[Fable Wright]

Huh. To my understanding, they still make some Zendikar packs until Innistrad comes out, so you might be able to restock on some of that. You'd probably have to buy them over the internet, but the price is still decent. Better than Scars block, though New Phyrexia was fun.

Though, I really wish that Wizards would reprint some of the old sets sometime. Rather than just From the Vault reprints, actually reprinting the packs themselves would be awesome.