General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

[bigstipidfighte]

I believe 4-5 humanity is the stated average. Honestly I don't see many vampires manageing to stay higher than that, not after a few years at any rate.

[Fouredged Sword]

Incidentally...

Spellcheckers only do so much.

But yeah, I think the average varies from ST to ST, and game to game, depending on the mood of the story. I find I like letting my players slowly realize that vampires really are monsters for the most part, and humanity knows it in the back of their minds.

It also gives elders a good reason to use fledglings for gofers. They still have enough of their humanity left to still work well with mortals.

[bigstipidfighte]

I have a question concerning nWoD crossovers-

Having looked over a couple threads on the subject, I can see the general concensus is that mages are clearly more versatile/powerful than the other splats, with Geists, Prometheans and Changelings all being pretty strong too.

So, my question is, does anything need to be done to adress imbalance in a crossover game, or is party balance something the players should be expected to deal with mostly on their own?

Obviously this is very much a matter-of-opinion sort of thing, but I'm curious what people's thoughts are, especially if they've tried it before.

[Morty]

Personally, I'd be wary of meddling with inter-splat balance. It doesn't seem to me that they were meant to be equal in power - mages, for instance, were supposed to wield frightening, unexplained powers that make even other denizens of the World of Darkness quake in their boots. I could be wrong, of course.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I'm actually playing in a crossover game with my RL group right now. We've got myself as a changeling, another friend as a changeling, 2 vampires, a hunter, and a mage.

The mage is noticeably above and beyond our abilities. The game is a Hunter-esque game, where instead of us all being hunters working for one of the compacts or conspiracies, we're all part of an organization founded by an ex-hunter who died and was revived as a sin-eater. In the first session, we needed to rescue one of our party members from a vampire who was planning to sell him to the Cheiron Group. The mage pulled out some spell that let him see and walk through shadows, allowing him to find and rescue our target without any need for the rest of us. He didn't bother mentioning this to me, and as a darkling I figured I had the best chances of finding the target and getting him out unseen, but no, all my efforts did were cause problems for our mage friend.

The point is, mages are extremely powerful, which can lead to some problems in a crossover game if the player(s) in question aren't willing to limit themselves. If you're running a crossover game, mages, prometheans and hunters are better avoided, due to balance, disquiet, and general world-view, respectively.

[bigstipidfighte]

I'm not sure what the author's intents were on inter-splat balance, I'm less familier with nWoD fluff but I like the mechanics much more. I know in oWoD fluff in the vampire book suggests that werewolves are ridiculously dangerous, even though vampires have more than enough tricks to fight them on an even field (Obfuscate comes to mind, as do all the socail powers that also apply in combat)

If I were to run a crossover game it would likely be with just the core three templates + possibly Hunter. On that note, if someone were to come up with a Hunter concept that worked for the game, does anyone have experience with how well they stack up to the other templates? With endowments and a little ingenuity do they do ok?

[Hullu_Iivana]

On that note, if someone were to come up with a Hunter concept that worked for the game, does anyone have experience with how well they stack up to the other templates? With endowments and a little ingenuity do they do ok?

They stack very badly. Endowments are parlour tricks compared to the abilities of supernaturals and even then Hunter lacks energy stat, which prevents him from using them often. They're also frail humans, and that is quite a handicap. You'd get less practical experience, and you'd have no Tactics without other cellmates.

You can create Hunter that is efficient in some tasks, but anything he can do Mage, Changeling or Sin-Eater can do just as well or better. Supernatural played with same ingenuity as Hunter is better choice when creating characters, but if someone wants to handicap himself, they can go ahead. There's reason why I don't do crossover in WoD, ever.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I'm not sure what the author's intents were on inter-splat balance, I'm less familier with nWoD fluff but I like the mechanics much more.

They pretty clearly intended for you to be capable of running a cross-over game. The unified mechanics for everyone facilitate that enormously and the various splats leave plenty of room in their (mostly mythical) cosmologies for other splats to exist, in addition to having unifying elements that are shared across the board.

All of the books also tend to at least address the idea, and Hunter is obviously built with the assumption that at the very least Vampires, Werewolves, and Mages exist.

On power levels, they're certainly is an imbalance, but it's not huge until you look at Mages and Hunters, where both are placed at a certain power level to reinforce their themes. Mage is about pride and the fallout of that, and Mages are given a lot of rope to hang themselves with. Hunter is about being a point of light in a very dark world, so you're outgunned almost all of the time.

I know in oWoD fluff in the vampire book suggests that werewolves are ridiculously dangerous, even though vampires have more than enough tricks to fight them on an even field (Obfuscate comes to mind, as do all the socail powers that also apply in combat)

Not actually totally fluff thing. Werewolves were incredibly dangerous in hand-to-hand combat in the oWoD, where there was a clear, wide gap between the splats in power (until you got up the elder trolololol power stage, anyway). Most vampires who get into anything like a stand-up fight with a werewolf of equal XP are dead.

So, yes, the vampires best hope is either stealth or social powers, except, uh, Werewolves are pretty great at sensing stuff and reasoning with a 9 foot tall murderbeast is pretty hard, even before you factor in their own magic.

Hence why oWoD vampires stayed well clear of werewolves.

If I were to run a crossover game it would likely be with just the core three templates + possibly Hunter. On that note, if someone were to come up with a Hunter concept that worked for the game, does anyone have experience with how well they stack up to the other templates? With endowments and a little ingenuity do they do ok?

Hunters with Endowments are on about the minor supernatural template level (psychics, immortals, thaumaturgists, etc.). Hunters have some cool tricks, but one of them (Tactics) is useless in a mixed game, and Endowments aren't usually competitive with other supernatural powers. They need a power boost if you want them relatively balanced with Vampires and Werewolves.

I would give them a souped-up Conviction (from Mirrors, just make it scale for supernatural resistance on a 1:1 basis like other power stats) as a power stat and some (7-ish) free Merit/Endowment dots. That should more-or-less do it.

[bigstipidfighte]

Alright, upon reviewing the replies I've gotten so far, I'm thinking I'd allow Werewolves, Vampires, Psychics, Thaumaturges, and, if someone wanted, probably Hunters as well. I don't have any other supplements except Mage, and the general consensus seems to be that it causes problems, so that's out.

Vampires and Werewolves would be created as normal.

The lesser templates would get some extra xp or merit dots. I was thinking about the 35 exp to be considered "established characters," so they'd have been around longer than PCs who picked a greater template. What are your thoughts? Is it too much, too little?

I don't have Mirrors, but I had been considering making a new Merit, Mettle, that functioned as a Power Stat for the purposes of defending against supernatural attacks.

Also, I'm considering doing one of two things-
a) Eliminating Awakened magic from the setting completely, or
b) Making mages very rare, say 1-2 cabals in any state, with Consiliums meeting rarely and covering vast regions (say, all of New England or the entire Midwest)

[Fouredged Sword]

You run into some more subtle issues as well. Werewolves and vampires function somewhat well together, as they are straightforward. They hunt and kill to survive. They heal quickly, and they handle combat well.

Now changelings are nice and powerful, but they don't heal quickly. A ogre with the power that lets you eat your way to full life would fit in. Without using goblin fruit or contracts changelings heal like mortals though and that is a problem.

Hunters will go down and stay down for a month after any encounter that threatens the werewolf or vampire without some outside force to heal him.

The pace is the problem. A vampire or werewolf lives in a brutal, violent, fast paced world. If you can't keep up with the constant beatings you get you die. Werewolves can expect to be able to take 4 lethal woulds an hour and be at perfect health. A vampire can be completely filled with ag damage and be at full life as soon as he slaughters a few crowds of mortals. A mortal dies slowly if he takes more than a single lethal wound every two days on a regular basis.

If you do mix hunters or changelings into the setting, please include a means for them to heal rapidly. Otherwise the more robust splats can simply push themselves harder and take more risks. No amount of exp will change that.

[Morty]

I don't think you need to limit Awakened magic, so long as you don't let the PCs be Mages.

[Yuki Akuma]

And this is why you should include Mages, because healing other people is child's play for them.

[bigstipidfighte]

And this is why you shouldn't include Mages, because everything ever is child's play for them.

Thanks for the advice Yuki.

In all honesty, I don't see the healing discrepancy being an issue. One problem I have in the D&D game I'm running irl right now is that with no casters and access to wands of clw, the PCs have no real built in need to rest.

If there is a mix of werewolves and psychics, for example, I doubt the wolves would be too eager to press on on their own if their buddies were injured. Sure, it'll happen occasionally, but not enough to ruin anyone's fun, I think. The party has to split occasionally in any game.

[Selrahc]

Now changelings are nice and powerful, but they don't heal quickly. A ogre with the power that lets you eat your way to full life would fit in. Without using goblin fruit or contracts changelings heal like mortals though and that is a problem.

But they are expected to use Goblin Fruits. Changelings are expected to carry around Goblin Fruits all the time, and go gather more if they are running low. There is a wyrd mandated limit to how many they can carry.

If a Changeling gets beaten up really badly and has no Goblin Fruits left over, the hedge might be too dangerous to go gather up more in while heavily injured. But I think that's a corner case.

[Fouredged Sword]

Oh, and vampires and werewolves occasionally flip out and maul their friends. Watch out for that, as in a normal game the other players can heal fast enough to deal with it. When the combat focused werewolf goes death rage (he will eventually), expect a party wipe.

The problem is that any encounter that threatens a werewolf with lasting harm will kill your mortals. period point blank. If they hold back they will never get truly challenged. I can easily get a werewolf to a 20 dice melee attack with starting points only, and add on the recovery speed, and they are melee monsters.

Also a mixed group will play badly with changelings as the hedge (a major part of their characters) does very bad things to every other splat in existence. Ripping ones soul out is something very few splats recover from.

[TheCountAlucard]

Also a mixed group will play badly with changelings as the hedge (a major part of their characters) does very bad things to every other splat in existence. Ripping ones soul out is something very few splats recover from.

And I thought Kindred didn't have proper souls to be ripped out in the first place. Of course, they've gotta deal with sunlight in there, I suppose...

[Fouredged Sword]

I think the changeling core book has rules for what happens to each splat when it goes into the hedge. Mostly it does rapid damage to their morality stat until they go crazy and die.

[comicshorse]

Werewolves get a roll every hour in the Hedge (Resolve +Composure), if they fail they go into Death Rage
Vampires get a roll every hour (Stamina+Resilience) or take a point of Lethal damage. If this wound is unhealed they also lose a point of Blood an hour. And the sun in the Hedge burns like everywhere else
Mages and Hunters lose a point of Morality per Hour and magic doesn't work for Mages

All really not going to make going into the Hedge a popular option for the Non Changelings

[bigstipidfighte]

The problem is that any encounter that threatens a werewolf with lasting harm will kill your mortals. period point blank. If they hold back they will never get truly challenged. I can easily get a werewolf to a 20 dice melee attack with starting points only, and add on the recovery speed, and they are melee monsters.

Do you though?

This goes back to my original question/point, which is that on some level party balance has to come from the players.

I've got no intention to include changelings, don't know where anyone got that idea, so so far the main issues I'm seeing come are are:

Werewolves/Vampires can go crazy and kill their friends.
The other templates can't heal easily.

Is there anything else worth noting?

[comicshorse]

Vampires will sleep through the day and their players will get very bored doing nothing

[bigstipidfighte]

...Why?

That statement seems to assume 1 of 2 things.

1) The other players are douchebags and insist on doing all their plot-relevent activities during the day, or

2) I'm a douchebag and insist on presenting challenges that can only be overcome during the day.

Since I hope neither of those are true, I'm not going to worry about that one.

[Yuki Akuma]

The point remains that the other characters can do things during the day (and in some cases will likely be expected to), that the vampire simply can't.

Although in that case, you can let his player roleplay as his ghoul (assuming he has one) or something.

[comicshorse]

If the P.C.s are hot on the trail of a villain it just doesn't make sense for the group to stop because the vampires can't continue.

If all the Vampires can't earthmeld if they are out in the wilderness vampires will always have to turn back early to reach that shelter they need.

Unless the villains are idiots it really doesn't make any sense for them not to attack when a significant portion of the group is mostly helpless.

I'm not saying it will happen all the time but enough to be a royal pain for the Vampire P.C.s

I've been in a game that mixed creatures ( granted OWoD) and all those problems and more came up until we decided to just go to everybody playing Vampires

The ghoul idea is a good one although obviously Ghouls are significantly weaker than any creatures

[Fouredged Sword]

Note, one way the vampire's daytime issue can be somewhat resolved is to make him auto pass his humanity check to stay awake during the day.

He can't go out, but he can interact with the others. Between this and having time pass as needed by drama the night will always last long enough to get back home before daybreak.

The problem with werewolves is that you can't NOT be good at combat. A garu gets base str+brawl + 5 lethal damage in that form. It's like always walking around with a greatax. Even minimal investment in brawl and strength will make the mortal strongman feel useless.

Werewolves have "the heard must not know", make sure you clarify what that means to your werewolf player before play. He will be revealing himself to his hunter ally. Hunters are not distinguished as not human and normally would be a harmony violation.

Also lunacy and hunters don't mix unless you make hunters not count as mortal anymore. Also mages face problems with hunters if they count as mortal.

[bigstipidfighte]

I don't have a problem with werewolves being the best at melee, as that's kind of their thing, but I hadn't considered lunacy... I wouldn't consider using powers in front of a true Hunter a breach in the masquerade for any race, nor would I count them as Sleeper witnesses, but Lunacy would be a serious problem, I'll have to think about that.

One solution would be to suggest that werewolves try to be less reliant on the monster forms, like our characters in Burnheart's game who are more reliant on Dalu. I'll stress again what I said before though- I might allow hunters if someone really wants to play one. So, I am much less concerned about hunter's place in the game than that of Werewolves, Vampires, Psychics and Thaumaturges.

So far, in addition to the other fixes I mentioned, it looks like I'll need to add-

A better healing power for Phychics and Thaumaturges. Something that lets them full-heal lethal damage with a couple hours of downtime.
The option for Vampires to play a ghoul during the day.

Not going to go any more extreme in dealing with the daytime vampire issue, since aside from the problem of other PCs wanting to continue, their restriction to nighttime hours and the threat of being attacked by non-vampire enemies during the day is a built-in drawback to the template.

I will point out as a long-time D&D player, though, that I find it extremely rare that the party chooses to press on when the spellcasters want to rest and regain spells. It can happen, but only under dire circumstances.

[Fouredged Sword]

A note on the hunter if you want to play a more werewolf friendly game.

The wolfblooded feat in Blood of the wolf can go a long way to mitigation of lunacy. A hunter with wolfblooded 3 and 8 willpower does not suffer lunacy except for strange cases. It also removes "the herd must not know" issues as such a wolfblooded person is not considered the herd by most packs.

Also the fifth dot of that merit would be very helpful for survival. It doubles your healing rate for lethal and bashing wounds. Take this AND fast healing and you are looking at healing 2 lethal wounds a day and a bashing wound every 3.5 min. You would recover from agg damage faster than the werewolf in fact (every 3.5 days).

For the vampires I have an idea for daytime. Don't make them suffer woulds from daylight, just make it a masquerade violation. After all it is a major violation if every time you walk into the sunlight you look like a disco ball.

[Morty]

Aren't Hunters considered to have a higher effective Willpower for the effects of Lunacy? I seem to recall reading about it in Spirit Slayers. It's explained by their knowledge that such things exist and their dedication bordering on obsession, I think.

[Fouredged Sword]

I do not have that book, but if that rule existed, then a wolf blooded hunter would be very tough vs lunacy.

[Hullu_Iivana]

Hunters roll Resolve+Composure when facing werewolf, and on success, their Willpower is considered three points higher than normal.

[bigstipidfighte]

For the vampires I have an idea for daytime. Don't make them suffer woulds from daylight, just make it a masquerade violation. After all it is a major violation if every time you walk into the sunlight you look like a disco ball.

You know what? If I do this I'll use the Dudes of Legend: How to be F***ing Awesome rules and call the campaign "nWoD 20% cooler remix"