What was Soon Holding? (Possibly Spoilerish)

[Holy_Knight]

When Soon transfers leadership of the Sapphire Guard to Shojo's father here, he seems to be giving him something round and blue. Also, the space on the throne which in Shojo's time contained the sapphire sealing the rift, is grey in the flashback, not blue. Is he actually handing Shojo's father the sapphire itself, and with it the tear in reality? If so, does this mean that the rifts could theoretically be moved around without the use of the Dark One's ritual?

[Gift Jeraff]

I think it's the sapphire which would eventually become Soon's Gate. The rift is floating the sky, and then (minor War and XPs spoiler)

Spoiler

Show

Lord Ronjo built a new tower to reach the rift.

And then Lirian and Dorukan perform the ritual in the new throne room and never see Soon again (unless Soon is already dead by that point).

I think.

[TheMac04]

I doubt it. I think Soon made the gate before he ever got that old. That's kind of implied.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Or he could be giving him a real sapphire, just not the one that is being used to seal the gate.

[Dr.Epic]

I doubt it. I think Soon made the gate before he ever got that old. That's kind of implied.

Yeah, the group disbanded when he appeared to be a lot younger. Why would he call Dorukan and Lirian to build the Gate now, so many years after they found it and made the agreement never to see each other again?

[FujinAkari]

It can't be THE Sapphire, since the fact that the Sapphire cannot be moved is a pretty major plot point.

[King of Nowhere]

Good spot check. It can't be the sapphire, because we know it can't be moved. It's also not possible that lirian and dorukan built the gate after soon died, because soon never saw them again after they split.
On the other hand, we see in that comic the spot on the throne where the sapphire should be is grey, like there was no sapphire there. And the stuff soon is giving ronjo (i think that's shojio's father's name) looks very much like the sapphire that seals the rift.
Soon called his paladins sapphire guard because they protected the sapphire, so i doubt that the sapphire is a later addition.

In the end, it may be a minor plot hole or misdrawing from Rich. Or it may be a simbolic drawing, where the passing of the sapphire is drawn to simbolize for the transfer of responsability.
Or maybe it is actually another sapphire (part of a ceremony maybe), and there is a sapphire on the throne, and it just looks grey in crayon.

[Sarco_Phage]

Aren't the crayon drawings not necessarily depictions of the actual events?

[ThePhantasm]

Aren't the crayon drawings not necessarily depictions of the actual events?

That's one theory. My stance is to view them as actual in-universe history until proven otherwise, though. I'm not sure if we have an indications that they aren't reliable.

[HZ514]

Possible fridge brilliance: no one outside the loop as to the gates could know the true nature, or at least the extent of the importance, of that particular gem on top of the throne. Perhaps the sapphire Soon passes Ronjo is a symbolic gesture meant to satisfy the curiosity of anyone who saw/heard about the Sapphire Guard leadership transfer ceremony. Also, it helps to have some sort of object to pass on to the next leader (crown, scepter, etc.) just to represent that transfer of power, and for obvious reasons, an immobile seal to a deicidal being wasn't the most readily available object to use.

[JSSheridan]

I consider crayon drawings to be of questionable authenticity.

[Phishfood]

That's one theory. My stance is to view them as actual in-universe history until proven otherwise, though. I'm not sure if we have an indications that they aren't reliable.

Too...many....double negatives.

Anyhoo, I would count on the crayons of time being accurate, at least in the major plot points. They have driven large parts of the plot so far it would be pretty weird to turn round and say its all bs.

[Gift Jeraff]

Yeah, the group disbanded when he appeared to be a lot younger. Why would he call Dorukan and Lirian to build the Gate now, so many years after they found it and made the agreement never to see each other again?

They disbanded after the Gates were made and disagreed on how to defend them. He didn't call them over or anything, the party was just still together at the time. Or are people suggesting Soon and Serini made their Gates by themselves?

[ThePhantasm]

Too...many....double negatives.

Anyhoo, I would count on the crayons of time being accurate, at least in the major plot points. They have driven large parts of the plot so far it would be pretty weird to turn round and say its all bs.

I don't think there were any double negatives in my post.

But yeah, I think there would be "hints" of unreliability or some sort of foreshadowing if the crayon-tales were falsehoods - anything else would feel like a retcon.

[Gift Jeraff]

I don't think there were any double negatives in my post.

But yeah, I think there would be "hints" of unreliability or some sort of foreshadowing if the crayon-tales were falsehoods - anything else would feel like a retcon.

Some people said the lack of phylactery in Jirix's crayon story is a hint of unreliability. (Compare: second and third panels.) I think that just means the crayon stories just don't show details the person telling the story chose to omit, but are otherwise almost exactly what happened.

[Holy_Knight]

It can't be THE Sapphire, since the fact that the Sapphire cannot be moved is a pretty major plot point.

It has been presented as one, although that raises some more questions. When Hinjo says that the sapphire can't be moved, he says that the throne, the platform, and the entire castle were built around the sapphire. But that would seem to imply either that the castle was built before Lirian and Durokan sealed the rift (which doesn't seem likely, given the urgency of sealing them), or that they somehow suspended the sapphire in mid air until the castle could be built (which doesn't seem likely, due to drawing unwanted attention to something supposed to be top secret). Alternatively, if the sapphire and rift could be moved, then those problems would go away, and we could understand the fortifications being "built around" the sapphire in terms of it being the reason for and focal point of its construction, rather than that it was literally constructed around it. This would also explain why the throne in the flashback does not seem to have a sapphire in it. I'm not saying I think for sure this is what happened, but if it is, and Hinjo is simply incorrect in thinking the sapphire can't be moved, it could answer a number of potential questions, as well as suggest some intriguing possibilites.

[mrmcfatty]

that they somehow suspended the sapphire in mid air until the castle could be built

i hope i quoted that correctly.

How do we know that when the rift was sealed with the sapphire the seal held the gem in place. Also from the size of it, the gem looks really small. depending what was there before the castle, i would assume it hard to believe a tiny, diminutive even, sapphire would be seen randomly while looking upwards towards the sky.

[Dr.Epic]

They disbanded after the Gates were made and disagreed on how to defend them. He didn't call them over or anything, the party was just still together at the time. Or are people suggesting Soon and Serini made their Gates by themselves?

Thank you for rephrasing what I posted?

[Kish]

That's one theory. My stance is to view them as actual in-universe history until proven otherwise, though. I'm not sure if we have an indications that they aren't reliable.

Check the SoD Spoilers and Miko's Fall link in the sig of...someone or other, I can't remember who offhand.

[hamishspence]

Here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=21

[Gift Jeraff]

Thank you for rephrasing what I posted?

Sorry, I was not sure what you were trying to say...

[ThePhantasm]

Check the SoD Spoilers and Miko's Fall link in the sig of...someone or other, I can't remember who offhand.

Doesn't that only show that the stories are told from a particular perspective (certain things get mentioned to further certain views, or because info is limited) but not necessarily that the stories themselves are unreliable? I know there are theories that the Dark One has lied to Redcloak but I'm not convinced as the stories all seem to line up.

Maybe I'm missing something though. My copy of SoD is in another country (international student) and I haven't read it in awhile.

[Kish]

Rich said the crayon story is "a narrative told by Redcloak."

Presumably, but not to my knowledge explicitly said by Rich, the other crayon story is also only as reliable as Shojo.

[ThePhantasm]

Rich said the crayon story is "a narrative told by Redcloak."

Presumably, but not to my knowledge explicitly said by Rich, the other crayon story is also only as reliable as Shojo.

I agree on that point. I'm not sure the fact that they are narratives necessarily calls their reliability into question?

Your comment on Shojo's reliability got me thinking through and I went back through the strips where he reveals that he has been lying to the paladins and whatnot. I did find this interesting quote that I had forgotten about, which may cast the reliability of Shojo's crayon narrative into doubt:

"Whatever you learn at Girard's Gate, you cannot tell any of the paladins. Not even my nephew." (*)

So maybe I'm wrong, and there are hints. Hmm.

[Mutant Sheep]

I agree on that point. I'm not sure the fact that they are narratives necessarily calls their reliability into question?

Your comment on Shojo's reliability got me thinking through and I went back through the strips where he reveals that he has been lying to the paladins and whatnot. I did find this interesting quote that I had forgotten about, which may cast the reliability of Shojo's crayon narrative into doubt:

"Whatever you learn at Girard's Gate, you cannot tell any of the paladins. Not even my nephew." (*)

So maybe I'm wrong, and there are hints. Hmm.

Shojo was talking about the secret of Mr. Scruffy. Obviously related to the rift somehow, and in no way is a ordinary house cat.

[Holy_Knight]

"Whatever you learn at Girard's Gate, you cannot tell any of the paladins. Not even my nephew." (*)

So maybe I'm wrong, and there are hints. Hmm.

I figured that that comment was because of the paladins' oaths of non-interference, not because Shojo thought it might contradict his own story. So while I do think there's the possibility that some of the crayon narratives are misleading (intentionally or otherwise) or incomplete, I'm not sure that Shojo's statement there is an indication of it either way.

i hope i quoted that correctly.

How do we know that when the rift was sealed with the sapphire the seal held the gem in place. Also from the size of it, the gem looks really small. depending what was there before the castle, i would assume it hard to believe a tiny, diminutive even, sapphire would be seen randomly while looking upwards towards the sky.

It might not be, but "might not be noticed" isn't a great way to go when you're talking about a secret which literally threatens the entirety of existence. Even if the seal did hold the gem in place, that's not really an acceptable risk.

[Ron Miel]

That's one theory. My stance is to view them as actual in-universe history until proven otherwise, though. I'm not sure if we have an indications that they aren't reliable.

Soon accurately reported what he believed to be true. Surely he wouldn't lie about it. But as for reliability, there is every indication that Soon did not fully understand the situation. There's at least two things he got wrong.
1) He thought that no two of the scribblers ever saw each other again. We know that Dorukan and Lirian remained lovers, and Serini and Girard at minimum sent each other messages.
2) Plus the fact that the rift above Azure City does not have a monster reaching out from it.

The crayon strips are therefore the inaccurate memories of someone who does not fully understand the situation.

[Balain]

To me it looks like the sapphire isn't in the throne yet in that panel. It looks like the setting is in place but grey where the sapphire would be

[The Extinguisher]

We've seen flashbacks and history told in both the crayon style and the normal style of the comic. Obviously we're not assuming the normal style is inaccurate. It makes more sense to assume that the normal flashbacks are objective while the crayon ones are subjective.

[Conuly]

He thought that no two of the scribblers ever saw each other again. We know that Dorukan and Lirian remained lovers, and Serini and Girard at minimum sent each other messages.

Indeed, I read the comic with the assumption that they probably ALL stayed in touch EXCEPT him.

The crayon strips are therefore the inaccurate memories of someone who does not fully understand the situation.

And to date, only V and the bird seem to have any idea that there's more to understand. Has V let the rest of the gang in on the whole "planet in the rift" concept? (And did they believe V(im) when V did?)