Relationship Woes and Advice XX: One X Short of an Awesome Title

[Glass Mouse]

Yeah, that sounds less like "hints" and more like "passive aggression."

I often have trouble seeing where one ends and the other begins.

Oh yeah, well I used, uh...more words! That implied an infinite loop! So there!

Your loop can't run forever, you know. One day the world will reach maximum jerkitutide, and THEN!!!! I'd like to imply my winning here, but frankly I think the world would just implode.

[DeadManSleeping]

Well I mean, I'm working my way up to attracting humanity as a whole's attention. What else do you think I'm doing here?

The phrase "barking up the wrong tree" comes to mind.

I'm one of those guys who assumes everyone's angry at him all the time for every little thing he's done wrong, and might do wrong in the future.

[Coidzor]

...Is there a way of teasingly asking someone on a date for one's birthday without just sounding like one is asking them directly to bed? My mind seems to only be able to conceive of really bad phraseology right now.

Your loop can't run forever, you know. One day the world will reach maximum jerkitutide, and THEN!!!! I'd like to imply my winning here, but frankly I think the world would just implode.

Peak jerk? ...I shudder at the concept.

[Glass Mouse]

I'm one of those guys who assumes everyone's angry at him all the time for every little thing he's done wrong, and might do wrong in the future.

Hmm, no. You're way too insightful, eloquent and all-around sympathetic for such thinking. I don't buy it.


In a more serious vein, I know how that goes. It's a horrible assumption to carry around. The only thing I've found that kinda helps is a) raise your self-esteem, and b) educate friends and family to TELL YOU if they're angry. Stubbornly repeated "I prefer to know!" will start to seep into most people's heads after some time (though obviously not all).
The self-esteem thing... ask our resident experts.

[Moonshadow]

How do I get over seeing "cute" in a negative light regarding relationships? To me, being called cute makes me feel childish, like people view me as not mature enough to have a relationship, but rather just a plaything to be discarded when one is bored.

The problem is that pretty much EVERYONE defines me as cute, and I hate it, but I'm not good looking enough to be handsome :/

[Serpentine]

Re. confessions of love/asking out/hints, etc: there are heaps of degrees of this stuff. This includes, but is not limited to:
1. Declaration of love (almost always, in the real world, a bad idea).
2. Declaration of like/crush
3. Bringing up like/crush during conversation ("Blugh I'm so ugly no one likes me!" "You kidding? I would go out with you in a heartbeat if I thought you'd want to!" [note: bad example, but you get the idea])
4. Asking out on a date.
5. Asking out to one-on-one activity not explicitly stated to be a date.
6. Hitting on.
7. Heavy flirting, including physical contact etc.
8. More subtle flirting.
9. Being extra-nice.
10. Treating 'em like anyone else and not doing anything at all.

Personally, as I mention, my preference is "subtle flirting", getting heavier, and eventually leading through the gradients to an explicit date (or, more likely, "we're a couple now! :D" ...I've never really "dated" much <.<).

So, to take this back to the original conversation: It's my understanding that Objection was talking about #1, possibly #2, which I think was generally determined to be a Bad Idea for the most part. Then we were discussing the differences in taste/intention/message between #4-5, and 6?-8. That is, while (in my opinion) declarations of love are almost always a bad idea, asking out and as I call it "organic development of a relationship" is purely down to personal preference, and unfortunately unless it's come up in conversation isn't really something you can know in advance.
As I explained before, the main reason I prefer "organic development" over being asked out is pressure. Asking me out requires an answer, which requires me to think about it, which I will over-do and puts stress on me and makes me feel awkward and blegh. It also, in my view, deprives me of the part I find most fun about a budding relationship: I like all the flirting and touching and uncertainty and stuff which is all bypassed by a simple "will you go out with me?"* The "organic" method also, I must confess, gives a measure of "plausible deniability" - it can be just some fun, and I can nip it in the bud before it goes too far without anything having actually been stated, "put out there" so to speak.
But, again, this is not advice. It's purely explanation of opinion.


*Side-note: it is my opinion that "will you go out with me?" or similar should be avoided wherever possible. A specific date, time and activity is much better.

[Objection]

Looking at your post Serpentine, I think we are (almost) opposites in that regard.

As I explained before, the main reason I prefer "organic development" over being asked out is pressure. Asking me out requires an answer, which requires me to think about it, which I will over-do and puts stress on me and makes me feel awkward and blegh.

Whereas for me, thinking about it (and even overthinking) ranges from useful and reassuring to absolutely necessary. I find that I am more confident that I am doing the right thing when I can justify it with reasoning rather than just because it feels nice at the time. If things have just happened without me understanding why they've happened like that, I find myself asking myself why did it happen and not knowing the answer, and that makes me feel awkward in probably the same way that being asked out out of the blue makes you feel awkward.

It also, in my view, deprives me of the part I find most fun about a budding relationship: I like all the flirting and touching and uncertainty and stuff which is all bypassed by a simple "will you go out with me?"*

I, on the other hand, don't really care much for the build-up to a successful relationship; I only care about the end goal of a stable romantic relationship and would prefer to pick the most efficient way of reaching that goal (though I would still make sure that a stable romantic relationship is actually a feasible goal with someone throughout whatever process I go through).

The "organic" method also, I must confess, gives a measure of "plausible deniability" - it can be just some fun, and I can nip it in the bud before it goes too far without anything having actually been stated, "put out there" so to speak.

I don't consider amorous feelings on any level to be just a bit of fun; I take them very seriously. As such, for me, there is no denying that they are/were there (unless they actually weren't there and I just thought they were at the time for some dumb reason). This is especially true if questions about such feelings are asked by anyone as I am vehemently against lying.

But, again, this is not advice. It's purely explanation of opinion.

Likewise, what I have posted here is just another opinion. Oh yeah, and I definitely agree with your side note on "will you go out with me?"

[Heliomance]

I've had success with variations on "Will you go out with me?". I tend to go with the slightly more whimsical "would you care to be my girl?" as the conclusion to a lot of flirting, but it seems to work for me.

Note: phraseology is in no wise intended to imply actual ownership of said female, an opinion of females as objects to be owned, or anything similar. I act slightly whimsically and old-fashioned, it's a quirk of mine, and the phrasing seemed natural.

[NineThePuma]

And now all I can think is "Are you gonna be my girl? Ba ba ba, babanabanana, bababa, babanabanana" =\

[Heliomance]

Ho hum.

Just had an hour long conversation with her ranging over life, the universe, and everything. Sadly, she said that she'd slightly misinterpreted the initial rush of attraction and chemistry between us, and that her feelings for me aren't romantic. On the other hand, she still wants to get to know me better, and thinks that we could be really good friends.

I'll admit, I'm a bit disappointed, but on the whole I'm okay with this. Life goes on, and all that. And I still get to spend time with her and such :)

[NineThePuma]

I have come to the conclusion that dealing with women is like dealing with THAC0.

Just when you think you've got it figured out, the equation tilts just a bit to the right and suddenly you're confused as all Baator.

[term1nally s1ck]

Either that, or you're suddenly trying to hit 3 things at once, and the battle map isn't visible, and you're not sure if the 3 are friendly to each other or if they even know the other exists.

Having said that, EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I may have found my perfect woman. And she REALLY digs me. :P

[Coidzor]

I have come to the conclusion that dealing with women is like dealing with THAC0.

Just when you think you've got it figured out, the equation tilts just a bit to the right and suddenly you're confused as all Baator.

Or in Baator.

[Wyntonian]

Having said that, EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I may have found my perfect woman. And she REALLY digs me. :P

Hey, congatulations. Good luck!

[Pheehelm]

I have come to the conclusion that dealing with women is like dealing with THAC0.

Just when you think you've got it figured out, the equation tilts just a bit to the right and suddenly you're confused as all Baator.

Or in Baator.

Either that, or you're suddenly trying to hit 3 things at once, and the battle map isn't visible, and you're not sure if the 3 are friendly to each other or if they even know the other exists.

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly how women behave and why, they will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

There is another theory which states that this has already happened.

[NineThePuma]

This one made up her mind about me based on me being depressed and having crushing self esteem problems in my mid teens. The problem is that I know she's attracted to me. As in, she's very flipping obvious about it.

It's this weird mix of denial and stubbornness that makes want to go argue for deforestation with an elf. At least then I'd know I was walking into an uphill (and snowy, in the dark) battle.

[Serpentine]

I've had success with variations on "Will you go out with me?". I tend to go with the slightly more whimsical "would you care to be my girl?" as the conclusion to a lot of flirting, but it seems to work for me.

I have absolutely no doubt that you have. That doesn't mean that "Will you go out with me?" is better than "Would you care to accompany me to [activity] on [day]?"

[Maralais]

I have absolutely no doubt that you have. That doesn't mean that "Will you go out with me?" is better than "Would you care to accompany me to [activity] on [day]?"

Actually, I think asking to come to an activity lacks the romantic part of the invitation. It could easily be interpreted as a friendly offer.

[Serpentine]

It's no more or less romantic than "will you go out with me?", and can easily be jazzed up. Say, ionno, "Oh, yon maiden! Wilt thou grace me with thine radiant company at the masquerade ball come Sabbath eve, and thereby become mine wench?"
Or, you know, whatever.

[Rawhide]

"Oh, yon maiden! Wilt thou grace me with thine radiant company at the masquerade ball come Sabbath eve, and thereby become mine wench?"

Find me a woman who would appreciate being asked out this way (knowing full well that the terms of "become mine wench" is in jest), and I'll ask her in a heartbeat.

[Heliomance]

It's no more or less romantic than "will you go out with me?", and can easily be jazzed up. Say, ionno, "Oh, yon maiden! Wilt thou grace me with thine radiant company at the masquerade ball come Sabbath eve, and thereby become mine wench?"Or, you know, whatever.

You've added a bit there. That last bit is equivalent to a general "Will you go out with me?" Previously, you were advocating just asking to individual events, with no explicit strings. That's what Maralais meant about it being misinterpreted - "Would you come to [activity] on [day]?" is different to "Would you come to [activity] on [day], I like you and want you as my girlfriend?"

Find me a woman who would appreciate being asked out this way (knowing full well that the terms of "become mine wench" is in jest), and I'll ask her in a heartbeat.

If you can get all that out in the space of one heartbeat, I'll be impressed. If you can actually make it coherent, I'll be more so.

[Serpentine]

You've added a bit there. That last bit is equivalent to a general "Will you go out with me?" Previously, you were advocating just asking to individual events, with no explicit strings. That's what Maralais meant about it being misinterpreted - "Would you come to [activity] on [day]?" is different to "Would you come to [activity] on [day], I like you and want you as my girlfriend?"

You're missing the point of the difference. Clarifying that the explicitly defined activity is intented as a date is not the same as "will you go out with me?" It is still specific, natural, and negotiable - all things "will you go out with me?" is not. I'm not "advocating just asking to individual events, with no explicit strings", I'm advocating asking to individual events, which you may or may not explicitly define as being romantic, as opposed to asking a bland and awkward not-much-of-a question. You can say anything you want, and add as many qualifiers as you like. Just make sure it includes something specific, rather than merely "out".

[The Succubus]

It's no more or less romantic than "will you go out with me?", and can easily be jazzed up. Say, ionno, "Oh, yon maiden! Wilt thou grace me with thine radiant company at the masquerade ball come Sabbath eve, and thereby become mine wench?"
Or, you know, whatever.

This invitation would work on me hook, line, sinker and fisherman. <3

As for the whole gradual/sudden thing, it was fairly sudden with my current gf. We'd met up as friends for the second time in Denmark and had spent the summer morning strolling around a lake, hand in hand. I didn't read too much into that (although I was really hoping). We sat down on a bench in the shade and this sudden impulse came over me. She turned her head to me to ask something and then I leaned in and kissed her. It was the most terrifying and amazing thing I've ever done.

[Thufir]

Find me a woman who would appreciate being asked out this way (knowing full well that the terms of "become mine wench" is in jest), and I'll ask her in a heartbeat.

I suspect numerous such women could be found on this very forum.

[Rawhide]

If you can get all that out in the space of one heartbeat, I'll be impressed. If you can actually make it coherent, I'll be more so.

Well, the saying means that I will leap to start doing that in the space of a heartbeat, not finish it. Buuuuut......

I suspect numerous such women could be found on this very forum.

I'm sure there are, I was merely suggesting that a) Serpentine's suggestion was a good one and b) it is something I would do with confidence if I knew someone who would like it.

[Form]

Say, ionno, "Oh, yon maiden! Wilt thou grace me with thine radiant company at the masquerade ball come Sabbath eve, and thereby become mine wench?"
Or, you know, whatever.

I must use this some day, somewhere. Maybe fairly soon even, if I can bring it the right way. Only then with the wench bit removed and 'masquerade ball' and 'Sabbath eve' replaced by the relevant activity and date.

[Rawhide]

I must use this some day, somewhere. Maybe fairly soon even, if I can bring it the right way. Only then with the wench bit removed and 'masquerade ball' and 'Sabbath eve' replaced by the relevant activity and date.

Yeah, "become mine wench" is a bit too... strong for me. For relationships, I don't particularly like saying anything that denotes ownership of me over her (e.g. when in a relationship I answer questions about it as neutrally as possible, such as "we are boyfriend and girlfriend" or "I'm her boyfriend" where something like the formor doesn't roll off the tongue). Hence why I mentioned using it only in jest as part of the period factor.

[Worira]

Use of the genitive case does not denote ownership, and ""I'm her boyfriend" is no more or less neutral than "She's my girlfriend".

[Rawhide]

Use of the genitive case does not denote ownership, and ""I'm her boyfriend" is no more or less neutral than "She's my girlfriend".

I know it's not more neutral, I will err on the other side of neutral to avoid a possessive remark when a neutral one isn't possible, that was the point.

[John Cribati]

The problem with a lot of the "My X" descriptions is that you'd have to consider what you are to that person. It's like if I called someone "my slave." That would mean that I am that person's "master." "Boyfriend" and "girlfriend" are (or, should be) on similar levels, so it's alright to say "my boy/girlfriend." "Wench" doesn't have that application.