Magic the Gathering XI: When this thread has 50 or more pages, transform it.

[tgva8889]

Jace Beleren is a very significant loss, as he represented the majority of their repeatable card advantage. Much of what you might have replaced Jace with (Sea Gate Oracle, Wall of Omens) also rotates. Preordain is also significant, and the card that replaces it (Ponder) is much, much worse. Unless you replace it with Think Twice, which is still worse than Preordain but it's still a good addition. Losing Colonade is significant because it makes your mana worse and reduces your overall threat density. Other decks lose them too, but they really helped the control decks more than the aggro decks.

You also lose Spell Pierce, which is a very significant counter. Dispel is also not legal anymore, though I'm not sure how significant that is. Into the Roil rotates, which reduces the versatility of your instant-speed answers (O-ring is good but it's also a sorcery).

I'm sure there is a U/W control deck, but I don't know what it plays, especially as a card advantage engine, so saying that BW loses to it without a card advantage engine is somewhat premature.

[Fable Wright]

What does U/W lose? All I can think of is Jace Beleren, Colonnade (though other decks lose their manlands too), and Preordain. Add in some pick-ups from Innistrad and it'll remain viable. And I still think the UB deck I outlined in the spoiler has potential.

Edit: Oh, and Firewalker for the board, but Timely provides enough RDW hate as is.

Squad hawks and Emeria angels, as well.

[Maho-Tsukai]

How about infect? Could an infect build actually be viable? Phyrexian Crusader looks to still be a strong threat since red and white are still looking like highly played/popular colors with stuff like G/W humans, Tempered Steel, RDWs and Vamps coming into play. U/B may not work anymore but mono B may still have some fight left in it if lashwrithe is abused. Mono G, G/W and G/U Infect sadly are no longer viable as they lost about 90% of their pump, which was their main strength in the first place.

Likewise, how would a "completed" version of tempered steel that combines artifact creatures that have Infect with the aforementioned enchantment work?

If there is at all a viable infect build I would like to know...colors don't matter much..it just has to be "phyrexian" in theme.

Also, are zombies viable? Most of them seem too slow and mill-focused, but if a Zombie deck is viable I would HIGHLY prefer it to the cliche' vamps.

[tgva8889]

What cards are you playing besides Phyrexian Crusader?

[Maho-Tsukai]

I would not know 100% because I have no idea if Infect is at all viable still. U/B is most likely not due to rotation, but a faster infect build may be viable. Sadly, the "win on turn 2" style G and G/X Infect deck was killed with rotation since, as stated before, it lost about 90% of it's pump(the only really "good" options left being mutigenic grown and maybe that black pumper from Innistrad that gives intimidate.). Thus I was thinking something along the lines of mono-B, abusing lashwrithe which is at the moment the only reason to even run mono B beyond the fact that U/B was killed and G(/X) was neutered to the point of impotence with rotation. For the rest of the infect creatures I'd probably run the cheap, aggressive ones. Skittles himself is just to slow now. Stuff like Ichorclaw Myr, and Plague Stinger have become better options and Phyrexian Vatmother would be the "high-end" beater for that skittles once was, and even then I question how many, if any at all Vatmothers I would run.

The rest of the deck would be removal, pump via equipment(Piston Sledge? Livewire Lash? or something from Innistrad?) and mutigenic growths and perhaps some hand disruption(Which could also come in creature form due to Whispering Specter.). The manabase would be simple. 4x Inkmoth Nexus and the rest would be swamps.

However, the core of the deck remains Crusader and Lashwrithe, which are the two strongest cards for mono B Infect...

[Maho-Tsukai]

-Computer Error, please deleat-

[tgva8889]

Have to spoil this because it deals with unreleased cards.

Spoiler

Show

It seems like it might be viable. The "infect" deck I'm currently working on is Primeval Titan-based, with Nexus and Kessig Wolf Run.

[Suedars]

Jace Beleren is a very significant loss, as he represented the majority of their repeatable card advantage. Much of what you might have replaced Jace with (Sea Gate Oracle, Wall of Omens) also rotates. Preordain is also significant, and the card that replaces it (Ponder) is much, much worse. Unless you replace it with Think Twice, which is still worse than Preordain but it's still a good addition. Losing Colonade is significant because it makes your mana worse and reduces your overall threat density. Other decks lose them too, but they really helped the control decks more than the aggro decks.

You also lose Spell Pierce, which is a very significant counter. Dispel is also not legal anymore, though I'm not sure how significant that is. Into the Roil rotates, which reduces the versatility of your instant-speed answers (O-ring is good but it's also a sorcery).

I'm sure there is a U/W control deck, but I don't know what it plays, especially as a card advantage engine, so saying that BW loses to it without a card advantage engine is somewhat premature.

Going to spoiler this so I can talk about Innistrad cards a bit more freely:

Spoiler

Show

The format is going to be a lot slower with Innistrad. All the cards that pressure the current standard to speed up (Goblin Guide, Twin, Valakut) are rotating. Control will be able to play a slower game, relying more on sweepers and counters (Dissipate is going to be a nice one). You've got the Forbidden Alchemy+Think Twice+Tiago package providing huge value at instant speed to complement that style of play.

A lot of the cards you mention are mainly relevant vs. control. Manlands don't really benefit agro, but they actually aren't very good against agro either. Having the EtB tapped hurts, and generally if you ever swung with a Colonnade vs. agro you had already won. Spell Pierce was mainly there for control, and Dispel only really saw play in Twin to protect its combo.

For finishers you've got Sphinx, Gideon, Sun Titan, Metamorph, Phantasmal Image, and Wurmcoil.

[tgva8889]

Spoiler

Show

Right, but since they're relevant against control, does that still make WB "Control" unplayable? I'm not completely convinced that's true.

Also, Tempered Steel is still legal and provides quite a bit of pressure on control decks to play a faster game.

[Suedars]

Spoiler

Show

Tempered Steel is going to be a lot worse outside of Block Constructed. It gained hugely from the atrocious fixing of Scars Block. No single color could field the various forms of removal needed to answer the deck which meant that if you wanted to play a slower deck you had to run multiple colors and lose a good portion of your games to color screw/mana flood or have a terrible matchup against the most widely played deck.

In Standard decks have real mana bases, W B and R each have all the removal they need to deal with it, there are better, cheaper sweepers than there were in Scars Block, and there are crushingly powerful sideboard cards like Ancient Grudge and Timely Reinforcements.

Also WB control never had access to any of those good control mirror spells (Colonnade, Spell Pierce) in the first place, and lacks any sort of card advantage. It can't stop ETB effects either which makes it very very bad against things like Titans, Snapcaster, Clones, etc.

[tgva8889]

Spoiler

Show

But Tempered Steel is still incredibly fast and powerful. It won't be dominant probably, but it will still be an important deck to consider when thinking about Control. I mean, people played it in the last Standard environment and it did fine. The only really important card it loses from rotation is Ornithopter, as Steel Overseer is nice but not necessary.

[Suedars]

Spoiler

Show

If I remember right it did pretty well at one SCG Open, but then became pretty bad once the field adapted to it. It put up a very poor showing at US Nationals and hasn't really been seen since.

[tgva8889]

Spoiler

Show

In a new field, one that you have suggested will be slower, maybe a fast deck like Tempered Steel will be playable.

Alternatively, Puresteel is a very real deck that will do very powerful things, and I don't know how fast or slow it is. It seems like it'll be a bit different with Mentor.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Spoiler

Show

So my mono B Infect idea actually holds water? Looks like I'll have to think of a build, then. While I know what is below is most likely total crap I came up with it off the top of my head in like less then a minute, so I know it most likely sucks...but it's just brainstorming...so..

Creatures:
3x Phyrexian Vatmother
4x Phyrexian Crusader
4x Whispering Specter
4x Plague Stinger
4x Ichorclaw Myr

Artifacts:
4x Lashwrithe
1x Sword of Feast and Famine and 3x Livewire Lash OR 4x Piston Sledge...?

Sorceries/Instants:
3x Despise
3x Dismember
2x Victim of Night
2x Mutegenic Growth

Lands:
4x Inkmoth Nexxus
19x Swamp

Yea, most likely that build totally sucks. But as I said, it's just general brainstorming and nothing serious...however, for those who said the mono B Infect idea holds some water I'd love to see your take on it/what you think a good mono-B infect build would be.

[Fable Wright]

Spoiler

Show

So my mono B Infect idea actually holds water? Looks like I'll have to think of a build, then. While I know what is below is most likely total crap I came up with it off the top of my head in like less then a minute, so I know it most likely sucks...but it's just brainstorming...so..

Creatures:
3x Phyrexian Vatmother
4x Phyrexian Crusader
4x Whispering Specter
4x Plague Stinger
4x Ichorclaw Myr

Artifacts:
4x Lashwrithe
1x Sword of Feast and Famine and 3x Livewire Lash OR 4x Piston Sledge...?

Sorceries/Instants:
3x Despise
3x Dismember
2x Victim of Night
2x Mutegenic Growth

Lands:
4x Inkmoth Nexxus
19x Swamp

Yea, most likely that build totally sucks. But as I said, it's just general brainstorming and nothing serious...however, for those who said the mono B Infect idea holds some water I'd love to see your take on it/what you think a good mono-B infect build would be.

Spoiler

Show

I would actually go G/B here. I would include Prey Upon, and keep the Livewires. You do realize that they cause the creature holding them to deal the damage? Enjoy two poison burn for each spell you target them with. Guess what prey upon does? Plus, it's wither damage for the preyed upon target. For similar reasons, up the number of mutagenic growths. I would also use Liliana, because I love repeated sac effects and discard for 3. Also, your deck is weak to Skaab Ruinator. None of your removal can touch it, as it stands right now. Well, not by themselves. Would run go for the throat; all of the key enabler cards that there are are non-artifacts, or non-fliers. Grim Affliction can also kill Puresteel Paladin and Mentor of the Meek, plus proliferate poison. The Hand of the Praetors also gives direct poison burn plus poison lord effect. Possibly also swiftboots, to protect it or haste your small guys.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Spoiler

Show

Yeah, but other then prey upon going G/B gives me nothing since most of the good green pump(Groundswell, Giant Growth ect...) has rotated so the old fashion "win on turn 2 by pileing a crapload of buffs on inkmoth/glistener elves" style deck is no longer viable..and that style of play is why G/B Infect was so good in the first place. Also, yeah..gftt most likely will be better then Victim of Night. I just overestimated the previlence of tempered steel and will probally make that switch.

Either way, I don't get much by going G/B other then prey upon and a wider pool of creatures to choose from, though upping mutigenic growth is a good idea. Also, hand is too fragile for my tastes. If he was a 3/3, maybe, but as a 3/2 red's lowest end burn can off him and he draws all kinds of removal like no tomorrow. Essentially he's a 4 mana counterspell that only counters creature removal, and nobody would play such a counterspell and therefore I see no reason to play hand.

As for lillina's absence, the main reason is price. I am expecting her to be quite pricey, and if I can't afford Tez, I can't afford her either, most likely. If I somehow come into money then I'll definitely use her but as of now the cost factor is why she's not in use already...

Anyway...if there is another good reason to go G/B other then a single card and a larger pool of creatures to choose from I'll probably consider going that route. However, with all the good pump rotated out I see no reason to go G/B and lose lashwrithe(one of the best equips in the deck.) unless later sets in the Innistrad block give us pump of the Giant Growth/Groundswell caliber.

[The Extinguisher]

Innistrad is on gatherer now. Do we really need spoilers anymore?

[arguskos]

Innistrad is on gatherer now. Do we really need spoilers anymore?

Also on magiccards.info (just read the entire set in a single run, was fairly unimpressed overall, though some stuff is drop dead gorgeous, such as this guy).

[Bucky]

Also on magiccards.info (just read the entire set in a single run, was fairly unimpressed overall, though some stuff is drop dead gorgeous, such as this guy).

Most overpriced Shock ever? <--- actually a Forked Bolt

[Chen]

Been working on my Mayael EDH deck and I figured I'd post here for a critque

Spoiler

Show

Commander (1)
Mayael the Anima

Big Creatures (8)
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Godsire
Mossbridge Troll
Platinum Emperion
It That Betrays
Artisan of Kozilek
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Removal Creatures (6)
Woodfall Primus
Terastodon
Bogardan Hellkite
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Hoard-Smelter Dragon
Ryusei, the Falling Star

Utility Creatures (9)
Twilight Shepherd
Genesis
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Deathless Angel
Anger
Seedborn Muse
Vengeful Archon
Spearbreaker Behemoth
Blazing Archon

Ramp (10)
Eternal Dragon
Krosan Tusker
Keeper of Progenitus
Cultivate
Explosive Vegetation
Skyshroud Claim
Sol Ring
Selesnya Signet
Gruul Signet
Mirari's Wake

Removal (11)
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Condemn
Austere Command
Rout
Starstorm
Return to Dust
Hull Breach
Krosan Grip
Shattering Pulse
Aura Shards

Deck Manipulation (10)
Sensei's Divining Top
Sterling Grove
Land Tax
Cream of the Crop
Sylvan Library
Scroll Rack
Enlightened Tutor
Greater Good
Abundance
Tooth and Nail

Protection (4)
Privileged Position
Lightning Greaves
Asceticism
Darksteel Plate

Misc (5)
Vicious Shadows
Primal Command
Gaea's Blessing
Naya Charm
Wild Ricochet

Land *(36)
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Evolving Wilds
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
Command Tower
Mystifying Maze
City of Brass
Rootbound Crag
Copperline Gorge
Stomping Ground
Sunpetal Grove
Plateau
Taiga
Savanah
Forest x 6
Mountain x 7
Plains x 8

[tgva8889]

Geistflame seems decent but not fantastic, just because there's a huge subset of creatures it doesn't kill (like, you know, most of them) and it's really not very effective at going to the face. The lack of mana efficiency is really what kills it (4 mana to flashback is much worse than, say, sacrificing a Mountain.)

[arguskos]

Most overpriced Shock ever? <--- actually a Forked Bolt

Oh, it's bad (and yet, some of the only removal in Innistrad block ), but it's pretty.

Also, Forked Bolt is solidish. Don't see how it's overpriced (sorcery speed DOES suck though). The worst Shock equivalent I know of is probably Hanabi Blast, just for the sheer "dear god you are bad" impact.

EDIT: tgva, yeah, agreed. In-block, it seems actually pretty alright, due to the large number of X/1 critters worth killing. I wish I had Lava Dart back though, or even Searing Touch.

[Foeofthelance]

Spoiler

Show

All right, here's my shot at a Standard U/B zombie deck with a mill subtheme. The idea is the fairly typical "bury them under a horde of tokens". Zombie Infestation will get you started, while Endless Ranks of the Dead makes sure you don't run out of gas just because you've run out of a hand. Lots of mill means you can feed creatures directly from your opponents deck to the graveyard to feed your minions, with Trepanation Blade and Mindcrank making sure you hurt their deck as well as their life points. Undead Alchemist and Cemetery Reaper make sure that any creatures you might mill just join your army instead of coming back, exiling anything they can get their hands on. (So even those pesky Eldrazi shouldn't get in the way in the next couple of weeks.) Finally, Ponder lets you get what you want, while Ghoulcaller's Chant will let you recover your losses should the board get swept. Thoughts? Suggestions?


Dead Man’s Mill
Lands 20
6 Islands
10 Swamps
4 Nepahlia Drownyards

Creatures 20
4 Stitched Drake
4 Undead Alchemist
4 Cemetery Reaper
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Adaptive Automaton

Spells 20
4 Ponder
3 Endless Ranks of the Dead
3 Ghoulcaller’s Chant
3 Zombie Infestation
4 Mindcrank
3 Trepanation Blade

[tgva8889]

Hanabi Blast was bomb-level good in Limited, though.

In Limited almost any card that can kill creatures is playable. The fact that Geistflame can kill 2 creatures with 1 card makes it definitely fall under the banner of "playable removal."

By the way, Innistrad Limited looks like it'll be highly difficult. There are some really powerful combat tricks at Common.

Edit: Zombie Infestation is a pretty terrible card in this deck with no way to draw extra cards. You really should just play more, other, better options instead. Also, 20 lands is a small number, you may want to play 24. Your curve isn't low enough to get away with 20 lands.

[arguskos]

Hanabi Blast was bomb-level good in Limited, though.

In Limited almost any card that can kill creatures is playable. The fact that Geistflame can kill 2 creatures with 1 card makes it definitely fall under the banner of "playable removal."

True enough. I was thinking mostly outside of Limited.

By the way, Innistrad Limited looks like it'll be highly difficult. There are some really powerful combat tricks at Common.

Agreed.

ION: Is it bad that I really want Hail Storm back? I deeply enjoyed Hail Storm in Time Spiral, and feel like it'd be amusing to see come back, if only to make old-timers laugh.

[tgva8889]

Oh my god.

Bonehoard. This card has to be powerful now, it just has to be! This is the kind of deck I can get on board with.

[BobVosh]

I love bonehoard, but what is going to make it more powerful?

[memnarch]

I love bonehoard, but what is going to make it more powerful?

Self-milling decks. Especially ones that are loaded with creature cards.

[Suedars]

The main problem is that aside from Bonehoard, the main way to utilize self-mill are the Skaab creatures which require you to exile creatures from your yard.

[tgva8889]

Well, there's Boneyard Wurm and Splinterfright.