An all in one, strong tier 3 Fighter overhaul – short and to the point

[nonsi]

.
Before presenting this fix, I’d like to raise a few questions (and answer them):

Q1. What do we want Mr. Fighter fix to be?
A1.1. Customizable.
A1.2. Useful in as many combat and non-combat situations as possible.

Q2. What do we want Mr. Fighter fix to have?
A2.1. Battlefield mobility.
A2.2. Battlefield control.
A2.3. Options. Lots of option – build-wise and execution-wise.

Q3. What do we want Mr. Fighter fix to be able to do?
A3.1. Kick his opponents’ ass.
A3.2. Have a decent shot of living to kickass another day.

Q4. What tier do we want Mr. Fighter fix to be?
A4.1. I believe the ideal is a strong tier 3.


So I was asking myself why, even though there are quite a few hundreds of Fighter fixes published on the most popular homebrew forums, people always come up with their own versions instead of taking an existing one.
My conclusion is that all of them present a certain archetype subject to the homebrewer’s taste at that moment.
So, in order to create something that everyone could find useful, a Fighter fix needs 4 things before anything else:
1. A solid foundation, not constraint to a specific warrior concept.
2. Extreme customizability.
3. Extreme versatility.
4. Simplicity of concept, built and usage.


 
Given the above insights, here’s my proposal:


Phase I: Define the Fighter as follows:

HD: d12.

BAB: Good.

Good saves: Fort.

Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (dungeoneering, geography, history, local, nature, nobility & royalty), Listen, Martial Lore, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim and Tumble.

Skills points / level: 6.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light and medium armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).


{table=head] Level |

Art of War

| Warrior's Edge |

Special

| Weapon Training

1

| Warcraft, ‪Learning Ease |

+1

| Battle Clarity * (Ref saves)‬ | 2 Weapons

2

| Bonus Feat | | |

3

| Warcraft | | Battle Ardor * (crit) |

4

| Bonus Feat |

+2

| | 3rd Weapon

5

| Warcraft | | Battlefield Insight |

6

| Bonus Feat | | |

7

| Warcraft |

+3

| Battle Cunning * (dmg) |

8

| Bonus Feat | | | 4th Weapon

9

| Warcraft | | Veteran's Grit |

10

| Bonus Feat, Combat Ingenuity |

+4

| | |

11

| Warcraft | | Battle Skill * (opposed checks) |

12

| Bonus Feat | | | 5th Weapon

13

| Warcraft |

+5

| Battlefield Brilliance |

14

| Bonus Feat | | |

15

| Warcraft | | Battle Mastery * (AoOs) |

16

| Bonus Feat |

+6

| | 6th Weapon

17

| Warcraft | | Stance Mastery * (see Phase II) |

18

| Bonus Feat | | |

19

| Warcraft |

+7

| Battlefield Genius |

20

| Bonus Feat, Master of Warfare | | | 7th Weapon
[/table]

Weapon Training (Ex)
A fighter stars his career with 2 weapons to which he gains Weapon Focus, free of charge.
At the indicated levels, he may select additional weapons that gain this bonus.
Any weapon a fighter chooses for weapon training gains the indicated bonuses in the Warrior's Edge column to attack, damage and opposed checks(trip, sunder, disarm etc). These bonuses stack with the bonuses given for Battle Ardor, Battle Cunning and Battle Mastery when applicable.
Special: A Fighter with Superior Unarmed Strike can choose unarmed strike as one of his weapons of choice.
Note: In favor of this streamlined approach, Weapon Specialization, Melee/Range Weapon Mastery, Greater Focus/Specialization and Weapon Supremacy no longer exist.
For those that adopt weapon groups: Weapons associated with one of a fighter's weapons of choice gain 1/2 Warrior's Edge bonuses, rounded down (starting from +0).

* Same as Warblade, but none of these abilities are associated with Int bonuses anymore. Instead, they're associated with the values presented in the Warrior's Edge column.
Note: It makes no sense to me for every fighter to be a potential Einstein. The 6 skill points / level allow Int to be a dump stat. and this rule makes it possible for a fighter to be decent and improve his combat prowess even when dumping his mental stats. Also this rule prevents stat augmentation abuse (which can get pretty insane).


‪Warcraft (Ex)
Throughout his career, a fighter's training grants him access to many combat advantages other characters cannot grasp.
These abilities are taken from the more martially inclined official classes as follows:

Spoiler

Show

{table=head] Source Class | Associated Feature | Minimum Level + Other Requirements | Notes
Barbarian | | |
| Rage | 1 | while raging, you gain 10ft speed with the notable restrictions of armor & load
| Uncanny Dodge | 3
| Improved Uncanny Dodge | 5, Uncanny Dodge
| Greater Rage | 11, Rage | during rage, you gain DR 2/–. This value increases by +1 with each additional 3HD past 11
| Indomitable Will | 15, Rage |
| Tireless Rage | 17, Greater Rage |
| Mighty Rage | 19, Greater Rage | your rage associated DR now also applies as energy resistance vs. all energy types
| | |
Crusader | | |
| Steely Resolve | 1 | +10 no sooner than level 5, +15 no sooner than level 9 and so on
| Furious Counterstrike | 3, Steely Resolve |
| Zealous Surge | 3 | I’d change it to once between rests, because it’s not important enough to warrant rest |
| Mettle | 5 |
| Smite | 7 | 2 / day no sooner than level 13, 3 / day no sooner than level 19
| | |
Knight | | |
| Bulwark of defense | 3 |
| Armor mastery (medium) | 5 |
| Shield Ally | 7 |
| Armor mastery (heavy) | 9, Armor mastery (medium) , Heavy Armor Prof. |
| Improved Shield Ally| 11, Shield Ally |
| | |
Ranger | | |
| Swift Tracker | 7 |
| Evasion | 9 |
| | |
Samurai + Zhentarim Soldier + special | | |
| Power Intimidation| 3 | you gain Skill Focus: Intimidate. You may use your Str bonus instead of Cha bonus when making Intimidate checks
| Extended intimidation| 5 |
| Staredown | 7 |
| Swift Demoralization | 9 |
| Mass Staredown | 11, Staredown |
| Improved Staredown | 13, Staredown |
| Frightful Preasence | 17, Mass Staredown , Improved Staredown |
| | |
Swashbuckler | | |
| Acrobatic Charge | 7 |
| Improved Flanking | 9 |
| Weakening Critical | 13 |
| Wounding Critical | 17 |
| | |
Swordsage | | |
| Discipline Focus| 5 | Defensive or offensive, 2 no sooner than level 9, 3 no sooner than level 13 and so on|
| Dual Boost | 19 |
| | |
Other Features | | |
| Pack Mule | 3 |
| Improved Delay | 7 |
| Lunging Attacks | 11 |
[/table]

You may instead decide to take a Fighter bonus feat and a combat associated skill trick.
In all cases, you must meet all the prerequisites.
You may also use Warcraft to boost your Ref or Will (or both) saves from poor to good.

Learning Ease‬ (Ex)
For the purposes of qualifying for Fighter feats (gained by either class progression or character progression), you treat your ability scores as though they were 2 points higher than they actually are at 1st level.
At level 6 and each 5 class-levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1 (max +5 at level 16).

Weapon Training (Ex)
A fighter starts his career at 1st level with a single Weapon Focus.
At 5th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a fighter gains an additional, cost free Weapon Focus.
Furthermore, for each Weapon Focus gained by this feature (but not for Weapon Focus gained via feats), a fighter gains all the benefits of the Weapon Focus tree feats to which he qualifies according to his class level (Weapon Supremacy limited to a single weapon).

Bonus Feat (Ex)
Instead of gaining a Fighter bonus feat, you may trade it to gain ANY Fighter specific ACF (no sooner than the minimum indicated level and subject to all prereqs).
A fighter may invest up to 3 feats per 10 levels (up to 3 at levels 1-10, up to 6 at levels 11-20, and so on) in Martial Study.
The maneuvers rules are as follows:
- Allow access to all official schools except Desert Wind & Shadow Hand.
- Use the fighter's level as his initiator level.
- All known maneuvers are always redies.
- Use the Warblade's maneuvers recovery rules.

Battlefield Insight (Ex)
You may use an immediate action without sacrificing your allotment of swift action during your turn.

Veteran's Grit (Ex)
At 9th level and on, you no longer automatically fail a saving throw on a roll of 1.
Furthermore, even after succumbing to attacks, spell effects or supernatural abilities that cause conditions, you’re able to partially or totally shrug them off.
When you’re subjected to one of the following conditions, replace it with the condition one cell to the right:

Spoiler

Show

{table=head] Condition | Becomes... | Becomes... | Becomes... | Becomes...
Cowering | Panicked | Frightened | Shaken | None
Paralyzed | Stunned | Dazed | Dazzled | None
| Blown away | Knocked Down | Checked | None
| Fascinated | Dazed | Dazzled | None
| | Blinded | Dazzled | None
| | Nauseated | Sickened | None
| | Exhausted | Fatigued | None
| | | Slowed | Entangled
| | | Ability Drained | Ability Damaged
[/table]

Combat Ingenuity (Ex)
At 10th level, you’re so competent at warfare that you can, to a certain degree, reinvent yourself during combat.
You may, as a swift action, gain the benefits of a single feat you never took for duration of 1 round.
There are 3 restrictions to this ability:
1. You must meet all the prerequisites of a feat to harness its benefits "on the fly".
2. The feat must have the "may be selected as a Fighter's bonus feat" descriptor.
3. You haven't used the said feat during the last hour.

Battlefield Brilliance (Ex)
You gain an extra swift or immediate action (but not both) every combat round.
As an immediate action, you can make an extra 5ft step, but at an expense of both swift actions you'd otherwise be entitled to during your next round.
As a swift action, provided you haven't used up your immediate action prior to your turn, you can make an additional move action during your turn.

Battlefield Genius (Ex)
As an immediate action, you can make an extra move action, but at an expense of both swift actions you'd otherwise be entitled to during your next round.
As a swift action, provided you haven't used up your immediate action prior to your turn, you can make an additional standard action during your turn.

Master of Warfare (Ex)
Your combat ingenuity ability may now grant any 2 feats simultaneously or any 1 warcraft ability.
Furthermore, you may select any feat with this ability as opten as you like with no "cooldown" time restriction.
 




Phase II: also apply the following changes:

Allow retraining of a maneuver/Warcraft/Feat whenever the fighter doesn’t get one, but only for an ability that doesn’t serve as a prereq to any of the fighter’s current character features.




Phase III: Let the player customize his kickass fighter as he sees fit.








So, is this class powerful?
Hell yes.

Is it too much?
Compared to spellcasters – hell no. It has no flight, phase or teleportation powers.

[Kenneth]

Not to shabby, If i hadn't already finish work on my fighter for 3rd ed ( it only took umm.. 7-ish years I think -really 2- if you don't count the time it took between the last version to when I thought up Combat Focus)

this would definately be the fighter that i would play.


Could you do me a favor though and peruse my fighter to tell me what 'tier' it is in? I myself have never really cared or played with poeple who were focused on 'tier' so..
here it is

Spoiler

Show

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216996

[nonsi]

Not to shabby, If i hadn't already finish work on my fighter for 3rd ed ( it only took umm.. 7-ish years I think -really 2- if you don't count the time it took between the last version to when I thought up Combat Focus)

this would definately be the fighter that i would play.

Don't feel too bad about the time waste.
Nailing it (a powerful tier 3 - out of the box) was harder than words can describe. I wrote more than 100 fixes that went to the garbage disposal without ever making it to the boards.
It was not until 24 hours ago that the Warcraft inspiration hit me. Combining that with some of the stuff from my dream Fighter fix (which is heavily based on quite a few house rules, so it would be of little value to others as a stand-alone class fix) that was inspired by Zeigander's Warlord, I finally managed to pull it off.

Could you do me a favor though and peruse my fighter to tell me what 'tier' it is in? I myself have never really cared or played with poeple who were focused on 'tier' so..
here it is

Spoiler

Show

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216996

Seems to me like more often than not it would be a solid tier-3, but poor choices could keep it bound to tier 4. It all depends no how much mobility and battlefield control it will end up with.

3 things pop at a glance:
1. You didn't quite nail the numbers with the average saves. It sould be +1/+1/+2/+2/+3/+3/+3/+4/+4/+5/+5/+5/+6/+6/+7/+7/+7/+8/+8/+9 (someone else did the math not too long ago and it adds up).
2. The 'overwritten tactics' rule makes a lot of sense, but I couldn't figure from the table column how many tactics you get of what (seems like there's a secondary and tertiary advancement there, but it's not quite clear how it goes).
3. This is the first time I see someone rewriting maneuvers to such extent for a single class. Why did you feel the need to assign the class specific maneuvers list rather than stating disciplines?


As a side note: Mobile Combatant should be a house rule rather than a class feature.

All in all, a decent class.
I have a few issues with it, but they're based on personal taste, so it's pointless to mention them.

[Ziegander]

So... what we have here is a Fighter/Warblade gestalt that's also gestalted with any other single class it wants + moar feats and moar class features on top of all that. Oh, and moar skills. And the Warblade class features it gets are better than the ones that the Warblade itself gets.

Is that right or am I misinterpreting this? Because the presentation is somewhat hard to follow, so I may not be getting it exactly.

[kalminos]

My thoughts upon looking at this build were one of elation and joyousness, and the words "TOO MUCH POWER, I CANNOT CONTAIN IT!" come to mind, as this seems like the most powerful non instant-win (literally) martial class I have ever laid mine eyes upon. I find it may come into use in a game where the rest of the party are all full casters or such.

I might guess this was tier two, but I'm not a knowledgeable brewer. I await the comments that are to come, and I may use this in a game I'm in right now. (where the rest of the party is a cleric, a artificer, and now a sorcerer.)

[nonsi]

So... what we have here is a Fighter/Warblade gestalt that's also gestalted with any other single class it wants + moar feats and moar class features on top of all that. Oh, and moar skills. And the Warblade class features it gets are better than the ones that the Warblade itself gets.

Is that right or am I misinterpreting this? Because the presentation is somewhat hard to follow, so I may not be getting it exactly.

That's right.
The Warblade-exclusive features should've been the Fighter's from the get go. That's the meaning of build-independent combat superiority the Fighter was supposed to have.
Battlefield Insight/Brilliance/Genius provide the required mobility and action economy (credits to you for the inspiration), just sans clunky mechanics (which I gladly adopt in my HRs, for reasons well explained in them).
Warcraft is used for implementing the archetype a player would desire (rager/zealot/defender/striker/daredevil or whatever), or mix & match for some more versatility but at the expense of not reaching the cherry on top. And only an idiot would use it too much (is there an opposite to 'abuse'?) to gain more feats (features are usually stronger).
And the new option to trade feats for ACFs at any point simply give more latitude to take an ACF at one's convenience.
As for the maneuvers - they fill in the required kick without the need to min-max/cheesecake (I'd go as far as saying munchkin) like crazy.
Now you can take a single class and tailor-make it into what you envision it to be without planning 15 levels ahead.

Does it mean this class would not need anything from cheesy PrC to be better at what IT is supposed to be doing better than any other class in the game?
Heavens forbid, Yes. Definitely.


>> "And the Warblade class features it gets are better than the ones that the Warblade itself gets."
This statement eludes my understanding.
For a noncaster, between Int, Wis and Cha - the choice is a no-brainer. Int trumps every time because of the extra skill points. I just presented other possibilities for the sake of making sense.
And with enough levels of experience, a veteran should be able to compensate for what otherwise should be dump stats for a warrior (hence dealing with MAD - at least in the midhigh levels).

[The Underlord]

1. Merge the current table together into one special column
2. Put its save and BAB(I assume it is good) in the table.
3. Put the manuever and stance progression on the table
That should help with the table. Warcraft seems a bit too powerful only because you can literally be any of the "warrior" classes and also be something else. Also there does not seem to any level limit on it so you can pick capstones of the classes at 1st level. edit: computer was loading when you posted. you say you can be any archetype, the problem is that why would anyone NOT take this class? If you can be any melee character archetypes but better there is no reason to not take this class. that is a major problem. It doesnt note if it scales so if choose rage you will never get more. I thinks thats good but that might not be what you intended.

[Ziegander]

Battlefield Insight (Ex)
You may use an immediate action without sacrificing your allotment of swift action during your turn.

Battlefield Brilliance (Ex)
You gain an extra swift or immediate action (but not both) every combat round.

Battlefield Genius (Ex)
If you haven’t used an immediate action before your turn, during your turn you may spend both swift actions you’re entitled to, to gain an extra standard action.

Nonsi, if your immediate actions don't prevent you from using your swift actions, and if you get an extra immediate/swift action per round, then why does Battlefield Genius require you to have not used your immediate action?

I might guess this was tier two, but I'm not a knowledgeable brewer.

No, it's not Tier 2. This is probably the most common misinterpretation of the Tiers that I come across. The only measurement that matters for Tier 2 is raw power. This class doesn't have access to campaign breakers, thus it cannot possibly be Tier 2. I'm not going to attempt the analysis, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could gestalt every single class of Tier 3 and below and you wouldn't budge Tier 2.

[nonsi]

1. Merge the current table together into one special column
2. Put its save and BAB(I assume it is good) in the table.
3. Put the manuever and stance progression on the table
That should help with the table. Warcraft seems a bit too powerful only because you can literally be any of the "warrior" classes and also be something else. Also there does not seem to any level limit on it so you can pick capstones of the classes at 1st level.

1. Merging it all together would make it punishing on the eyes. The Monk has more columns, so I see no problem with separating categorically.
2. BAB is good, of course. Tanks.
3. This needless effort on my part would bring no new information, so I allow myself to skip it (sorry, but you can always quote-copy and edit to your heart's content).
4. I don't see Warcraft as too powerful, given non of the archetypes it emulates are decent enough. Furthermore, you can only gain 1 feature with Warcraft, not a collection of level associated features (a fighter would need to get to level 5 to gain the benefits the official Barbarian provides by 2nd level).

>> Also there does not seem to any level limit on it so you can pick capstones of the classes at 1st level
You missed this:
"You may select ANY extraordinary “Warrior” class feature / ACF (no sooner than the minimum indicated level and subject to all prereqs).".

[nonsi]

Nonsi, if your immediate actions don't prevent you from using your swift actions, and if you get an extra immediate/swift action per round, then why does Battlefield Genius require you to have not used your immediate action?

So it would have to pay something substantial and plan ahead in order to gain an extra standard action for someone with all this arsenal.
This means that you'll have to capitallize on all of your extras to gain an extra standard astion.

[Realms of Chaos]

Looking at this fix... it seems a big patchwork of around 5 other fixes that all form a rough new class.

As far as notes/nitpicks, there are a few that may be worth making.

1. You never describe what a warrior class is. Even if you think that it obviously means "every class with full BAB", a definite and restrictive list is still required (or at least preferable) for a single reason.

If your DM is allowing this class, they are already allowing homebrew. This means that so long as you can find a full BAB class anywhere on any forum (or 3rd party source if you want a bit more legitamacy) with a class skill or extraordinary class feature you want, there is a good case for allowing the fighter to take it if there is no list. As we can't know every such ability or every single class, this ability is a HUGE question mark of power.

2. The skills seem pretty darn weird, seeing as a combination of scout skills and all "warrior" skills pretty much makes up every single skill. Why not just allow the fighter to select any 10 or 12 skills to become class skills? Seems a bit neater and allows for the few obscure skills that might not be in a Warrior class to see use. Even if this would allow for some un-fighterly skills, it's not like a game with this class would have too much room for a skill monkey role (see below for more details).

3. By giving the fighter warblade proficiencies, I do believe that you are denying them of proficiency with ranged martial weapons. As your aim is for versatility, perhaps consider switching it back to fighter proficiencies?

4. In your bonus feat section, I'm not sure how I'd like the prospect of trading your 2nd level feat for any fighter alternate class feature. I've seen one or two level 18 fighter ACFs that were actually powered rather appropriately and giving them out at level 2 may not be the wisest thing. Also, it remains unclear how abilities that normally require the sacrifice of multiple feats work.

Seeing as all but 1 fighter ACF in existance (at least that I can think of) involves trading fighter feats anyways, why even include that line?

5. I see what you are doing with weapon training but I'm not sure that you're getting quite where you need to be. The idea of being specialized in several weapons at the same time is kind of nice.

Unfortunately, none of those abilities (except for maybe combat supremacy) is actually worth anything. Nobody is going to notice the +2 to attack rolls and +4 to damage rolsl that much beyond a slight preference for your favored weapons. Seeing as the Pathfinder Fighter gets better than that (getting higher bonuses and with entire weapon groups), the ability looks kind of tacked on more than anything else.

Combat Supremacy is nice, mind you, but I'm betting that you could think of better weapon improvements than minor numeric boosts (perhaps even selectable from a list). Alternately, this ability could easily be scrapped, shaving an entire column off of your class table and making it more readable (again, more on that later).

Also, there's the small fact that Master of Warfare gives you near full benefit of weapon training for every single weapon other than weapon supremacy (making the other four weapons you chose entirely unimportant).

6. As you're already using maneuvers and are thus embracing a per encounter mindset, why not shift Combat Ingenuity from 1/10 minutes to 1/encounter (which is 1/5 minutes out of battle). The time just seems a random right now.

7. Master of Warfare, more than any other capstone that I have ever seen, seems to subscribe to the "Nobody actually plays at level 20, right?" school of thought. As there are indeed people who do, however, giving them access to (basically) every fighter feat in existance will end up being a headache for everyone involved (especially since allowing homebrew once again allows for a nigh-infinite influx of fighter feats from the internet). While I can understand not planning for homebrew, creating a homebrew class that only functions in a setting where homebrew isn't permitted seems like a bit of a flawed premise.

Also, there is no indication one way or the other as to whether feats that can be taken multiple times can be taken infinite times, though I expect that the ability breaks in some way if it is possible.

Even just using core and the PHB II, there are a lot of feats to keep track and saying that a player has to do a ton of work just to enjoy their capstone might strike others as a bit unfun.

8. The class table looks kind of weird to me. Not necessarily a bad thing but just putting the vital information up top and giving three rows of ability advancement it a bit alien to me. If it's more efficient, though, whatever works.

9. One of the problems that I see with this and many other fighter fixes is that it turns the frequent comparison of casters vs noncasters into casters vs this and only this. In a campaign with this class, I firmly believe that there isn't room for any non-caster. Even if you invented another martial class of comparable might, this guy would steal all of the other class' best (Ex) abilities AND have good skills AND have excellent hit points AND have full warblade progression. While you've succeeded at making a tier 3 fighter, the only way you were able to do so was by making it so broad that anything other than a caster is a fighter or would be more effective as a fighter (which is kind of ironic, seeing as you need access to a wide variety of other sources and classes to maximize its effectiveness). Not necessarily a bad thing but you might as well call this class "The Noncaster".

[nonsi]

Thanks Realms. That’s one hell of an “observative” analysis.

1. Ok. Official materials only, of course. Noted
2. There are actually quite a few that are not in the list. Several Knowledge skills, UMD & UPD, Autohypnosis and most Perform branches. Also, unless I missed something, Disable Device & Forgery are also not included. I can also see nothing that this class would gain from ranks in Concentration, except in very specific cases. It may surprise some, but I really made an effort to avoid stepping on the toes of a possible Rogue or Monk remake.
3. You’re right. Fixed.
4. You’re right again. It’s missing the "(no sooner than the minimum indicated level and subject to all prereqs)". Fixed
5. I was somewhat worried that using the PF bonuses would make it seem like I’m focusing on power boost rather than wide versatility. Furthermore, while the PF weapon groups are certainly an improvement over 3.5, they're not 3.5 official and I tried to uphold the “keep it isolated” agenda. But for anyone who finds it appropriate – by all means, I’m all for it, choosing between weapons and armors as the player sees fit.
6. People have gripes with the vague definition of “encounter”, but I see no problem with your suggestion.
7. Ok. 1) It will have to be a feat that both the player and DM already know. 2) A feat that can be taken multiple times can only be “taken” once (or once more). And, if it takes more than 10 gametime seconds per round to use, you’ve basically forfeited the option (“if by level 20 you’re still stuck there – for that moment you don’t deserve it. Learn how to play!“).
9. I never once said that the Rogue & Monk don’t need the love & attention. You saw my version, so you know. I’m not counting on having similar inspiration for an isolated Rogue or Monk remake anytime soon, but my versions could be a good raw material to work with in that direction.

EDIT: Regarding PF Fighter's Weapon Training, I checked it out and it actually ends a bit weaker than the Weapon Focus tree - both in when the bonuses are gained and how much they amount to (+4 hit & damage vs. +4 hit & +6 damage). These bonuses are free of charge, but that's also the result with this Fighter fix.

[nonsi]

.
Ok, it occurred to me that something is flawed with the Weapon Training approach.
A 4th level fighter having only a single weapon he’s really good with?
An 8th level fighter having only two weapons he’s really good with?
And then there’s the spiking, at levels 9 and 13, where new weapons suddenly go from nothing to Greater Focus/Spec.

So, to give the Fighter some decent versatility and streamlined weapon training progression, I thought about editing the Weapon Training column as follows:

{table=head] Level | Weapon Training
1 | Weapon Focus: 3 weapons
2 | Weapon Focus: 4th weapon
3 | Weapon Focus: 5th weapon
4 | Weapon Spec.: 1st weapon
5 | Weapon Spec.: 2nd weapon
6 | Weapon Spec.: 3rd weapon
7 | Weapon Spec.: 4th weapon
8 | Greater Focus: 1st weapon, Weapon Mastery: 1st category
9 | Greater Focus: 2nd weapon, Weapon Mastery: 2nd category
10 | Greater Focus: 3rd weapon, Weapon Mastery: 3rd category
11 | Greater Focus: 4th weapon, Weapon Mastery: 4th category
12 | Greater Weapon Specialization
13 | Greater Spec.: 1st weapon
14 | Greater Spec.: 2nd weapon
15 | Greater Spec.: 3rd weapon
16 | Greater Spec.: 4th weapon
17 | Weapon Spec: 5th weapon
18 |

Weapon Supremacy

|
19 | Greater Focus: 5th weapon, Weapon Mastery: 5th category
20 | Greater Spec: 5th weapon
[/table]


Your thoughts . . . ?

[Maraxus1]

The first time I saw the Tier system I thought: Hey, that's nice.

After seeing to much "Tier 2 Overpowered" and "Tier 3 Overpowered" classes (thus classes that lack the flexibility of the higher tiers and use that to justify being overpowered in plain straightforward numbers), I dislike it.

The very first thing I check on every fighter fix is the power boost over the first / first6 / first10 levels. Because if you think, that wizards are better then warrior-type classes you have not seen a 1st level barbarian beating a 1st level wizard unconscious with the wizard's own familiar (not because he lost his greataxe but because he could and thought it would be fun). Likewise he is still a power of the party at level 6 and (if build well) good at level 10.

A fighter fix, that adds significant power on the first 6 levels thus has some minus points from the start.


And this "Warcraft" feature is really ugly. Adding class features without any checking except, that the character's need to be "Warrior-ish"?
Rage at Level 1 might be all fun but then on 3 Swashbuckler's insightful strike, Swordsage's AC Bonus or Paladin's Divine Grace (depending on your attributes), later what about a paladin mount or a ranger's hide in plain sight. This is no good kind of customisability, because it awards you to pick the weirdest combination of the most powerful abilities of other classes without regards to flavor. (And "1 ability" is definitely no good measuring unit for power).

As far as the "spontaneously use any feat from anywhere" goes: No.
As a DM, I permit non-core stuff on a case-by-case basis after carefully reviewing the stuff and the character as he already is. Even if a player could pick it in 10 seconds, I'd need longer to review it. The best the fighter player can hope for is, to have a pool of "inactive" feats, that he can access via combat ingenuity/ master of warfare.

Overpowered. not having flight or teleportation is no justification. Your buddy can cast that for you and later in the game you will simply use items.
Speaking of using items, there is a reason why additional standard actions each round got dropped from haste in 3.0. But then again, I can't even say, that I find this class to get an unjustified amount of power per level after level 14, so the easily abuseable level 19 and 20 abilities I don't care for. Point is, that at all the low and moderate levels, this version of the fighter is too much.

[Howler Dagger]

Because if you think, that wizards are better then warrior-type classes you have not seen a 1st level barbarian beating a 1st level wizard unconscious with the wizard's own familiar (not because he lost his greataxe but because he could and thought it would be fun).

Fun Fact: Pun-Pun can ascend at level 1.

though on the class itself: I feel like you give it too many options, and players will kind of feel overhwelmed. Also, i think giving it all the skills of the warior classes may be too much

[Siosilvar]

.
Ok, it occurred to me that something is flawed with the Weapon Training approach.
A 4th level fighter having only a single weapon he’s really good with?
An 8th level fighter having only two weapons he’s really good with?
And then there’s the spiking, at levels 9 and 13, where new weapons suddenly go from nothing to Greater Focus/Spec.

So, to give the Fighter some decent versatility and streamlined weapon training progression, I thought about editing the Weapon Training column as follows:

-table-


Your thoughts . . . ?

Too much bookkeeping. It's fine as is.

---

1
I'm not sure I can think of 10 decent ACFs off the top of my head. Obviously, there's Spirit Lion Totem, the Ranger's Distracting Attack from PHB2, the Scout's Riposte, and Lunging Attacks and Mettle are pretty good, but... that's only 5.

This discounting the fact that you get the ACFs (or even more feats) and the new features and the whole of Warblade. Warblade is already Tier 3. Why would you ever take Warblade when this fighter is available? I'd consider maybe letting them take Martial Study an extra two times, but there's no reason to completely obsolete a rather well-designed class.

[nonsi]

>> After seeing to much "Tier 2 Overpowered" and "Tier 3 Overpowered" classes
>> (thus classes that lack the flexibility of the higher tiers and use that to justify
>> being overpowered in plain straightforward numbers), I dislike it.

Ok, lets examine together the relevancy of your gripes with fixes in general and with this one in particular.


>> The very first thing I check on every fighter fix is the power boost over the
>> first / first6 / first10 levels. Because if you think, that wizards are better then
>> warrior-type classes you have not seen a 1st level barbarian beating a 1st
>> level wizard unconscious with the wizard's own familiar (not because he lost
>> his greataxe but because he could and thought it would be fun).
1. Poor build or poor usage can make a wizard suck.
2. At 1st level a wizard has barely tastes magic and is indeed a weakling, and yet . . .
3. I played a 3rd level Gnome Beguiler a while back, in a party of 4th level Cleric, Fighter, Rogue & Monk. I got kicked out after 4 or 5 sessions for overshadowing everyone.


>> A fighter fix, that adds significant power on the first 6 levels thus has some minus points from the start.
Ok, use my Fighter fix and show me an outrageously powerful build for levels 6, 8 & 10.
(suggestion: read on before you decide to embark on this endeavor)


>> And this "Warcraft" feature is really ugly. Adding class features without any
>> checking except, that the character's need to be "Warrior-ish"?
Not any "Warrior-ish".
A "Warrior-ish" with no inherent supernatural or spell like features.
Check the ones I noted. None of them has one.


>> Rage at Level 1 might be all fun but then on 3 Swashbuckler's insightful strike,
MAD.


>> Swordsage's AC Bonus
A Swordsage's AC Bonus is an augmentation, not an (Ex) ability.


>> or Paladin's Divine Grace (depending on your attributes), later what about a paladin mount
1. MAD.
2. 1 is irrelevant. Divine Grace is (Su)
3. Special Mount is (Su)
4. 1, 2 & 3 are irrelevant, because the Paladin is not "Warrior-ish" according to the above.


>> or a ranger's hide in plain sight.
At level 17 (somebody stop me).


>> As far as the "spontaneously use any feat from anywhere" goes: No.
Why the hell not?!
1. 1 / encounter is hardly even exciting.
2. At 10th level, spells trump feats by magnitudes (unless the spellcaster’s player is an idiot, no offence).
3. I had a RL situation where a split-second inspiration saved my life – and I’m far from a 10th level warrior.


>> Overpowered. not having flight or teleportation is no justification.
>> Your buddy can cast that for you and later in the game you will simply use items.
10 million different things can happen to magic items to exclude them from the category of insurance policy.


>> Speaking of using items, there is a reason why additional standard
>> actions each round got dropped from haste in 3.0.
No room to compare Haste with a level 19 feature (on any scale - otherwise the feature should be replaced of nixed altogether).


>> But then again, I can't even say, that I find this class to get an unjustified
>> amount of power per level after level 14, . . .
Neither before, to my better understanding.
This class is all about options, versatility and usability – not raw power abuse.



Now, if you still feel like it, by all means, show me how you abuse this class at levels 6, 8 & 10.

[Glimbur]

One of your stated design goals is

4. Simplicity of concept, built and usage.

.

However, you include abilities such as Warcraft, Combat Ingenuity, and Master of Warfare. These reward deep system mastery, which is not simple. In addition, the large number of feats and class features, which does make the class customizable as you want, also makes a character more complicated to build.


Impetuous Endurance requires reference to two different sources to understand it. Veteran's Grit should be made prettier and simpler to understand, probably using a table, and "you do not automatically fail saving throws if you roll a 1" is simple enough to put directly in the class.

I have other concerns but they have already been voiced by others; they are mostly on topics of clarity.

[nonsi]

One of your stated design goals is .

However, you include abilities such as Warcraft, Combat Ingenuity, and Master of Warfare. These reward deep system mastery, which is not simple. In addition, the large number of feats and class features, which does make the class customizable as you want, also makes a character more complicated to build.

Want Rage/Fast Movement/5 points of Steely Resolve - it's yours for the taking at 1st level.
Just choose what you want from the official combat classes to your heart's content.
I see nothing complicated there.
Each feature grants different benefits and I can't say that one is vulgarly superior to the other.
Combat Ingenuity is available after 9 levels worth of game time. That's a lot of time to get acquainted with the various combat feats. Coupled with retraining, I see no obstacle there.
As for Master of Warfare . . . If you got to level 20 in one piece, you probably don't need any help there.

Impetuous Endurance requires reference to two different sources to understand it. Veteran's Grit should be made prettier and simpler to understand, probably using a table, and "you do not automatically fail saving throws if you roll a 1" is simple enough to put directly in the class.

I'll work on it. Maybe even today.

I have other concerns but they have already been voiced by others; they are mostly on topics of clarity.

I edited the OP whenever I saw a need to do so.
If things are still not clear - by all means, do share.

[Andion Isurand]

.
Ok, it occurred to me that something is flawed with the Weapon Training approach.
A 4th level fighter having only a single weapon he’s really good with?
An 8th level fighter having only two weapons he’s really good with?
And then there’s the spiking, at levels 9 and 13, where new weapons suddenly go from nothing to Greater Focus/Spec.

So, to give the Fighter some decent versatility and streamlined weapon training progression, I thought about editing the Weapon Training column as follows:

{table=head] Level | Weapon Training
1 | Weapon Focus: 3 weapons
2 | Weapon Focus: 4th weapon
3 | Weapon Focus: 5th weapon
4 | Weapon Spec.: 1st weapon
5 | Weapon Spec.: 2nd weapon
6 | Weapon Spec.: 3rd weapon
7 | Weapon Spec.: 4th weapon
8 | Greater Focus: 1st weapon, Weapon Mastery: 1st category
9 | Greater Focus: 2nd weapon, Weapon Mastery: 2nd category
10 | Greater Focus: 3rd weapon, Weapon Mastery: 3rd category
11 | Greater Focus: 4th weapon, Weapon Mastery: 4th category
12 | Greater Weapon Specialization
13 | Greater Spec.: 1st weapon
14 | Greater Spec.: 2nd weapon
15 | Greater Spec.: 3rd weapon
16 | Greater Spec.: 4th weapon
17 | Weapon Spec: 5th weapon
18 |

Weapon Supremacy

|
19 | Greater Focus: 5th weapon, Weapon Mastery: 5th category
20 | Greater Spec: 5th weapon
[/table]


Your thoughts . . . ?

I think you should simplify this a bit.

Here's a few feats I came up with using weapon groups variant, in which the Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec trees are replaced with a tree that serves to benefit all weapons for which the fighter has taken weapon focus.

Weapon Study Feats

[Glimbur]

I edited the OP whenever I saw a need to do so.
If things are still not clear - by all means, do share.

Starting at the top...

6+ skill points is bard level skills. 4+ might be more appropriate... I feel that 2+ skill points are for wizards and nobody else, as everyone should have skills but wizards have the Int to have skills anyway.

Skill list is just plain lazy. "Warrior" classes is vague. Is it classes which have full BAB? Duskblade and Hexblade might not fit the theme you want, while a Monk is arguably a warrior despite 3/4 BAB.

Likewise, write out the weapon and armor proficiencies. It's not much more work for you and it makes the class easier to use.

You define "Warrior class" in Warcraft, but it is still not exact. What is a "category"? The best approach I see is to write a comprehensive list of which classes can have class features lifted from them.

Battlefield Brilliance is not much of an upgrade over Battlefield Insight, all it offers is two swift actions a round i.e. the swordsage capstone only with fewer restrictions. Adding another swift action to every turn is quite powerful.

This class is more powerful than Barbarian/Crusader/Knight/Ranger/Samurai/Swashbuckler/Swordsage/Warblade/Crusader/Paladin/etc. Mechanically, if this class is available and someone wants to play a combat-focused character then they will play this class. There is a great deal of variety available in builds for this class, but it is significantly stronger than ToB classes, which are a common power balance point. I feel that this is an issue.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Adding onto what Glimbur said, this class is less a fighter and more "free Gestalted Warblade//Some melee classes that aren't really defined."

This is not a good design goal.

[kalminos]

Nonsi, An idea to make this much more palatable to the community might be to make an inclusive list of features you can pull, and at what level.

Also consider removing Warcraft from some of the less dead levels such as the first, fifth, ninth, thirteenth, and seventeenth levels where you get more weapons added to your repertoire of weapon specializations.

This would make it much less of a 'free tripple gestalt' class, which does seem ridiculous.

(this assuming you aren't using the the new table you made for weapon specialization).

Tell me your thoughts on this.

[Yitzi]

Combat Ingenuity seems to essential to the versatility of the build (and hence its tier 3 status) to be usable only one round every 10 minutes. I'd say it should last until a new feat is chosen via Combat Ingenuity, even if that requires depowering other features.

[nonsi]

though on the class itself: I feel like you give it too many options, and players will kind of feel overhwelmed. Also, i think giving it all the skills of the warior classes may be too much

Now that the list has been sealed, I believe players will have no problem making their picks.
It's all a matter of personal taste regarding which advantages you prioritize over others.

I think you should simplify this a bit.

Here's a few feats I came up with using weapon groups variant, in which the Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec trees are replaced with a tree that serves to benefit all weapons for which the fighter has taken weapon focus.

Weapon Study Feats

This would require nixing all Weapon Focus Iteratives (i.e. Spec+)
I could start at 2 or 3 Weapon Focus bonuses and add one at levels 5, 10, 15 & 20, granting the selected weapons 1/3 the Fighters level (rounded down) to hit, damage and opposed roll.
This will end up a bit better than the Weapon Focus tree and will be a lot more streamlined and simplified.

I'd like some feedbacks before I make this change.

6+ skill points is bard level skills. 4+ might be more appropriate... I feel that 2+ skill points are for wizards and nobody else, as everyone should have skills but wizards have the Int to have skills anyway.

The Warblade has 4, but is heavily Int based.
By making Int a dump stat, this remake will probably have less consistently.

Skill list is just plain lazy. "Warrior" classes is vague. Is it classes which have full BAB? Duskblade and Hexblade might not fit the theme you want, while a Monk is arguably a warrior despite 3/4 BAB.

1. The list is now fixed.
2. I'll take the time and compile the list (today or sometime soon).

Likewise, write out the weapon and armor proficiencies. It's not much more work for you and it makes the class easier to use.

Already did.

Battlefield Brilliance is not much of an upgrade over Battlefield Insight, all it offers is two swift actions a round i.e. the swordsage capstone only with fewer restrictions. Adding another swift action to every turn is quite powerful.

An extra swift action (for a total of 2 swift + 1 immediate, or 1 swift + 2 immediate) is nothing to sneer at.

This class is more powerful than Barbarian/Crusader/Knight/Ranger/Samurai/Swashbuckler/Swordsage/Warblade/Crusader/Paladin/etc. Mechanically, if this class is available and someone wants to play a combat-focused character then they will play this class. There is a great deal of variety available in builds for this class, but it is significantly stronger than ToB classes, which are a common power balance point. I feel that this is an issue.

I assumed it would be clear that "An all in one" means that it comes instead of them all.

Nonsi, An idea to make this much more palatable to the community might be to make an inclusive list of features you can pull, and at what level.

I'll try to compile one in the next few days.

Also consider removing Warcraft from some of the less dead levels such as the first, fifth, ninth, thirteenth, and seventeenth levels where you get more weapons added to your repertoire of weapon specializations.

More weapons just mean that you're less likely to lose your edge, not that you gain new edges.

This would make it much less of a 'free tripple gestalt' class, which does seem ridiculous.

Gestalting several bad classes doesn't necessarily produce a broken result.
I saw now indication that this fix is broken.

(this assuming you aren't using the the new table you made for weapon specialization).

Could you specify?
Power wise, the differences are negligible to none.

Combat Ingenuity seems to essential to the versatility of the build (and hence its tier 3 status) to be usable only one round every 10 minutes. I'd say it should last until a new feat is chosen via Combat Ingenuity, even if that requires depowering other features.

The concept behind this feature is improvisation/inspiration of the moment, not knowledge that actually doesn't exist.
That's why, if people find it not available enough, I'd rather make it usable each round, but require that any on-the-fly selection can be repeated only after an hour has passed.

[kalminos]

I didn't mean getting more weapons proficiencies, I meant simply removing Warcraft from those levels that you would already be gaining more weapons.

[nonsi]

I didn't mean getting more weapons proficiencies, I meant simply removing Warcraft from those levels that you would already be gaining more weapons.

I figured that's what you meant, I just didn't think that weapon prof warrant omitting Warcraft.

Anyway, I'v been cooking Warcraft to state what you can take and starting at which levels, and made some changes to the core features, trying my best to leave as much room as possible for a potential med-BAB striker as possible (I intend to specify).
I also made the necessary compilation to Impetuous Endurance. I'll use "Veteran's Grit" - it's more appropriate.
I also streamlined the Warblade exclusive features and Weapon Training (which will require nixing Weapon Spec.+, but they were Fighter-only to begin with, so no big change there).

I'll try to finish it up in the next 48 hours so things are much clearer for everyone.

[Shadow Lord]

I'll give you one thing; this class certainly does do what it says it does.

Strong tier 3? Check!

Figher overhaul? Check!

All in one? Check!

The only problem? It renders every other martial class, ever unnecessary. Yeah, no.

[Ziegander]

Gestalting several bad classes doesn't necessarily produce a broken result.
I saw now indication that this fix is broken.

Nonsi, this class doesn't gestalt several bad classes. It gestalts two Tier 3-4 classes with yet another Tier 4 class and then adds A LOT of stuff on top of that.

It's not broken, I'll give you that (it never reaches Tier 2), but an overpowered Tier 3 class is almost worse in my opinion. Tier 1 and 2 classes have the saving grace of being able to be toned down so as not to be so strong. Tier 3 classes rarely have that capability, and this one certainly doesn't. There's nothing a player could do to reduce the effectiveness of this class in play to anything below "stronger than any other warrior."

It's power level is so high that, in the Same Game Tests, I project it winning 80% or more of the encounters through 10th level and 70% or more of the encounters in SGT 15. Which is to say that it's every bit as effective as a Wizard or Cleric at the low to mid-levels and only starts to noticeably slow down in the highest levels of gameplay (13+).

[nonsi]

Ok, all class features are now fully "cooked".