The Index of the Giant's Comments

[Peelee]

Let me clarify:

People are asking if OOTS in particular has been influenced by Pratchett.

And the answer is no. Does this tell you anything about OotS other than "it is not influenced by Pratchett?"

[Taelas]

And the answer is no. Does this tell you anything about OotS other than "it is not influenced by Pratchett?"

Nothing. Which matters .... why, exactly?

People are asking the question. New people come to the forums all the time. Keeping this sort of information in the Index helps cut down on clutter, I imagine.

[Peelee]

Nothing. Which matters .... why, exactly?

Rule b1...

b) The Index is for collecting only quotes that have to do with the Order of the Stick comic or other fiction works by Rich Burlew.
- 1. This excludes non-comic-related opinions, statements, etc. from Rich. So if he says "I like Italian food" or something like that, it is not to be included.

[Emanick]

Rule b1...

Questions about what influenced the development of The Order of the Stick are still questions about OOTS. And if people are asking those questions, they should be answered.

[orrion]

Questions about what influenced the development of The Order of the Stick are still questions about OOTS. And if people are asking those questions, they should be answered.

Which just leads us back to asking Rich for a list of every novel he's ever read, or more specifically, which works he thinks have influenced OOTS.

And I say that answer, whatever it may be, is irrelevant to understanding or enjoying the comic itself and so doesn't belong in this index.

[Peelee]

Questions about what influenced the development of The Order of the Stick are still questions about OOTS. And if people are asking those questions, they should be answered.

By that logic, if a lot of people asked if The Giant ate beans and rice before drawing each strip, and The Giant responded no, then that would still be relevant to the strip and worthy of inclusion into the Index.

Quantity does not equal relevance.
Explicit statement of non-relevance does not equal relevance.

I don't see how this can be classified as relevant to the strip, since the Giant has openly and unambiguously stated that it is not.

[Kurald Galain]

One of the (several) purposes of this thread is to provide an answer to certain Frequently Asked Questions, such as "is Belkar evil", "which characters in the comic are LGBT", and "is Therkla really Right-Eye's daugher".

It turns out that whether The Giant is influenced by, in particular, George Martin and Terry Pratchett is one of those frequently asked questions, whereas whether he is influenced by John Grisham, Ann Rice, or Geoffrey Chaucer is not. Therefore my vote is to include the former two in the thread.

Ironically I was present at an interview with Terry Pratchett, where he was asked almost the same question: whether his work was influenced by J.K.Rowling. I suppose writers just get a lot of questions like these, even if it shows a substantial lack of research and genre knowledge to even ask something like that.

[Peelee]

One of the (several) purposes of this thread is to provide an answer to certain Frequently Asked Questions, such as "is Belkar evil", "which characters in the comic are LGBT", and "is Therkla really Right-Eye's daugher".

It turns out that whether The Giant is influenced by, in particular, George Martin and Terry Pratchett is one of those frequently asked questions, whereas whether he is influenced by John Grisham, Ann Rice, or Geoffrey Chaucer is not. Therefore my vote is to include the former two in the thread.

Ironically I was present at an interview with Terry Pratchett, where he was asked almost the same question: whether his work was influenced by J.K.Rowling. I suppose writers just get a lot of questions like these, even if it shows a substantial lack of research and genre knowledge to even ask something like that.

A notable difference in the questions you listed and the "influenced by X" question is they are all directly relevant to the story.

Not influencing is not relevant.

[Kurald Galain]

A notable difference in the questions you listed and the "influenced by X" question is they are all directly relevant to the story.

Not influencing is not relevant.

People consider it relevant, because otherwise they wouldn't keep asking it.

[ti'esar]

People consider it relevant, because otherwise they wouldn't keep asking it.

Exactly.

I think the fact that it keeps coming it is frankly idiotic, but it does keep coming up, and that's what's really the key factor here. Not some hypothetical discussion of other authors who the Giant isn't compared to, and not some prescriptive attempt to include only the quotes we think should be relevant to people.

[The Linker]

Which just leads us back to asking Rich for a list of every novel he's ever read, or more specifically, which works he thinks have influenced OOTS.

The point is that people do not ask that. And that people do ask, frequently, if he is influenced by Pratchett.

These 'what-ifs' do not matter. What matters is what is asked. Whether or not you think it should be asked, it is asked frequently. As such, to lessen the amount of people asking, it makes sense to provide the answer.

If the whole forum started asking if he was influenced by The Art of War, and he said no, and then people kept asking, then yes! I would say his quote, 'No, I have not read The Art of War,' should be included. I might personally wonder about what links people seem to find to it, and I may not understand why everyone would be asking about it, but that's besides the point.

This thread is seen as a fantastic resource in large part because it serves as a FAQ, and when you're making a FAQ, you don't get to decide which Questions are worthy. You include the ones that are Frequently Asked. If keeping the quote lessens the amount of people who ask "I wonder how much Terry Pratchett he has read," then that should be more than worth it.

If thirty other book series inquiries start popping up in comments all over the board, then we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Right now, it's not a problem. There are two authors that Rich gets compared to a lot, and that's not a huge deal to talk about.

Of course, personally:

[...]which works [Rich Burlew] thinks have influenced OOTS.

I would find this a wonderful and incredibly relevant addition.

[ti'esar]

I would find this a wonderful and incredibly relevant addition.

It's already covered in the introduction to W&XP.

[Peelee]

People consider it relevant, because otherwise they wouldn't keep asking it.

I disagree. It would be relevant if the answer was yes. People ask because it might be relevant. The answer reveals that it is not. The frequency with which it is asked does not increase relevancy, any more than it changes the answer itself.

[The Linker]

It's already covered in the introduction to W&XP.

Oh, yeeeah. I thought I'd read something like that somewhere.

I disagree. It would be relevant if the answer was yes. People ask because it might be relevant. The answer reveals that it is not. The frequency with which it is asked does not increase relevancy, any more than it changes the answer itself.

It does, however, increase the helpfulness of the quote's inclusion towards stemming the flow of that question.

Granted, it's reasonable that you may not find that a worthy cause, but I see it as one of the greatest functions of this thread. This may be the point of dissension.

[hamishspence]

Maybe let the voting speak for itself? Once the voting's been tallied, we will know if a particular option's mostly been voted to be removed, or not.

[orrion]

The point is that people do not ask that. And that people do ask, frequently, if he is influenced by Pratchett.

These 'what-ifs' do not matter. What matters is what is asked. Whether or not you think it should be asked, it is asked frequently. As such, to lessen the amount of people asking, it makes sense to provide the answer.

No, what matters is whether what is asked is relevant to the comic.

If everyone made a post asking Rich what his favorite food is, apparently you think the answer should be in this index because your only criterion for admission is quantity.

[ti'esar]

No, what matters is whether what is asked is relevant to the comic.

If everyone made a post asking Rich what his favorite food is, apparently you think the answer should be in this index because your only criterion for admission is quantity.

Rich's favorite food has no possible relationship to the comic. His purported literary influences do.

[Peelee]

It does, however, increase the helpfulness of the quote's inclusion towards stemming the flow of that question.

Granted, it's reasonable that you may not find that a worthy cause, but I see it as one of the greatest functions of this thread. This may be the point of dissension.

With that, you've hit the nail on the head. I have no argument that its not useful to curb the frequency that question comes up. I just see the purpose of the thread as currently written, and do not believe it complies. If the guidelines are rewritten or I am wrong in this, then I have no problem with it's inclusion. I only have a problem with it with the thread guidelines as is.

[Ron Miel]

By that logic, if a lot of people asked if The Giant ate beans and rice before drawing each strip, and The Giant responded no, then that would still be relevant to the strip and worthy of inclusion into the Index.

Yes, it would be. Seriously, if several people thought that his diet affected his writing, and asked a question, and he gave an answer, then that answer certainly would be worth including.

[The Linker]

If everyone made a post asking Rich what his favorite food is, apparently you think the answer should be in this index because your only criterion for admission is quantity.

What ti'esar said*. And if for some reason, we had the question asked once a week 'I wonder what food the author of Order of the Stick eats while writing this comic' -- if it was genuinely such a frequent occurrence that it warranted an actual response from Rich, and became this ongoing thing that newcomers kept bringing up by the droves, and everyone in this thread accepted that it was an oddly frequent topic -- then yes! Include his answer because clearly people want to know. A quote listing that says "If you are one of the several people per month who seem to interested in Rich's dietary habits as relates to the comic, here is his long-awaited say on the matter."

This will never come up because it's fairly ridiculous. These 'what-ifs' you're bringing up have little point because if they're not fairly ridiculous they won't come up. It's not a problem to be concerned about. Right now, including anything about what Rich eats would be absurd. In the hypothetical grim, dark future of 20xx where hundreds of forumgoers are incredibly concerned over how Rich's health intake affects the comic, it makes more sense.

*Edit: And what Ron Miel said. Which is... yeah, pretty much my ultimate point.

[Jasdoif]

With that, you've hit the nail on the head. I have no argument that its not useful to curb the frequency that question comes up. I just see the purpose of the thread as currently written, and do not believe it complies. If the guidelines are rewritten or I am wrong in this, then I have no problem with it's inclusion. I only have a problem with it with the thread guidelines as is.

The key guideline here is b2:

b) The Index is for collecting only quotes that have to do with the Order of the Stick comic or other fiction works by Rich Burlew.
...
- 2. This may include information tangentially related to the comic, like Rich's views on Dungeons and Dragons, book publishing, art design, etc. These quotes are still within the sphere of comic-related discussion. Uncertainty should be decided by thread poster consensus.

With the ambiguity two-fer of "may" and "tangentially related", the quote being discussed could certainly qualify. And it looks like the discussion/voting to arrive at a consensus under b2 is well underway

[Throknor]

Two pages on one quote??? Isn't that what the voting was supposed to prevent? I say call the vote and be done with it. Any seconds?

[Flame of Anor]

Two pages on one quote??? Isn't that what the voting was supposed to prevent? I say call the vote and be done with it. Any seconds?

Yes, please. This is ridiculous.

[NerdyKris]

Two pages on one quote??? Isn't that what the voting was supposed to prevent? I say call the vote and be done with it. Any seconds?

Agreed. The whole point of the voting was that there was no agreement reached. We're just reopening the debate from 10 pages back here.

[ThePhantasm]

I'm actually counting up the votes at this moment, but given that over 50 posters voted and there were 11 options... be patient with me!

[Jasdoif]

Yes, please. This is ridiculous.

Why, exactly, is a discussion over the merits of a post "ridiculous"? It's not like the post guidelines are set in stone and can't be changed.


That said...by my count, all the quotes should be quite safe at this point. The Pratchett quote has the most contention at 41% voting to remove, and even it would take a straight 10 votes for removal to hit 50/50. (Second place is a three-way tie between Vampire Durkon Can Cast Spells, Some Thoughts on Visual and Story, and Tarquin Doesn't Have Trap Sense; at 20% voting to remove and would take a straight 34 removal votes to hit 50/50.)

EDIT:

I'm actually counting up the votes at this moment, but given that over 50 posters voted and there were 11 options... be patient with me!

Oh. Well then, since I just did my count....

A couple people changed their votes and I discarded the old ones, so there were 56 votes total.

• 1 got 5 votes, about 9% in favor of removal.
• 2 got 5 votes, about 9% in favor of removal.
• 3 got 11 votes, about 20% in favor of removal.
• 4 got 11 votes, about 20% in favor of removal.
• 5 got 2 votes, about 4% in favor of removal.
• 6 got 6 votes, about 11% in favor of removal.
• 7 got 23 votes, about 41% in favor of removal.
• 8 got 8 votes, about 14% in favor of removal.
• 9 got 7 votes, about 13% in favor of removal.
• 10 got 5 votes, about 9% in favor of removal.
• 11 got 11 votes, about 20% in favor of removal.

So yes, they're all above water as far as staying in the Index goes.

[ThePhantasm]

No Quote Was Voted Out of the Index

All Remain

EDIT: Thanks all for voting. This thread is getting near to its end. I hope to have the new index thread up by the end of the week.

Until then, please try to keep discussion to a minimum so we don't go over the limit before then... it would be best to just limit things to quote suggestions. We can discuss those suggestions and vote on them if need be in the new thread rather than this one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why, exactly, is a discussion over the merits of a post "ridiculous"?

Mostly because total consensus is never reached. orrion and Peelee aren't going to convince us of their position that the answer to the question be taken into consideration (i.e. "since the answer was no, it shouldn't be included") and the rest of us are not going to convince them that its the question that needs to be relevant to the comic (i.e. "Did Pratchett influence OotS?")

GW

[ThePhantasm]

• 1 got 5 votes, about 9% in favor of removal.
• 2 got 5 votes, about 9% in favor of removal.
• 3 got 11 votes, about 20% in favor of removal.
• 4 got 11 votes, about 20% in favor of removal.
• 5 got 2 votes, about 4% in favor of removal.
• 6 got 6 votes, about 11% in favor of removal.
• 7 got 23 votes, about 41% in favor of removal.
• 8 got 8 votes, about 14% in favor of removal.
• 9 got 7 votes, about 13% in favor of removal.
• 10 got 5 votes, about 9% in favor of removal.
• 11 got 11 votes, about 20% in favor of removal.

So yes, they're all above water as far as staying in the Index goes.

Yes, that was my count, except I counted 22 for 7... I might have gotten messed up though, a few people changed their votes which confused things a bit.

Either way, no quote-removal was anywhere near the "majority by 2 votes" required by the index guidelines.

[Peelee]

Mostly because.... the rest of us are not going to convince [Peelee] that its the question that needs to be relevant to the comic (i.e. "Did Pratchett influence OotS?")

GW

Actually, I could have been convinced. If anyone had explained why a source not being an inspiration was relevant, for instance, I would have been perfectly happy. Or if someone had used the thread rules to argue that it did belong as written (for the record, Jadoif did convince me of that with

With the ambiguity two-fer of "may" and "tangentially related", the quote being discussed could certainly qualify.

. Anyway, I don't mind the outcome at all, and I don't think discussion of why the quote should or should not have been included was ridiculous.

/mytwocents