Twice Blessed (Total Ripoff of OOTS?)

[gadren]

My own word. came up with it years ago to describe my life. I find the concept that I made it up on the spot insulting.

How is it insulting?

[Nerd-o-rama]

There's also a game I'm playing where that concept is one character's "superpower" (that, and piloting a bitchin' space plane and being named after a pastry).

I think they call her a probability nullifier, though.

[Lord Raziere]

How is it insulting?

….forget it. forget I said anything.

[Weimann]

This dwarf guy just gets better.

[gadren]

This dwarf guy just gets better.

Indeed he does! To which Vadim highlight are you referring specifically, though, if I may ask?

[Eigenclass]

Not at all a ripoff! The more fantasy-gaming webcomics out there, the better!

However, with a certain character archetype, one has noticed that authors tend to "identify" with the characters they create. Such characters are extremely charismatic or extremely noble, or exemplify some other trait that the authors either believe they have or would like to see in themselves. They might have powers/abilities/friends that allow them to act with careless regard to consequences, being occasionally oblivious of them in fact, and still have it somehow work out.

Most of the time, this makes for extremely limited character development and makes plotlines seem deus ex machina and sort of uninteresting.

Now I'm not saying this applies to Cade or Twice Blessed in any way, but I am sort of non-commitally implying it in a circuitous way that I hope will not give offence. :-)

@ Trazoi:

but I wouldn't be painting it with the rip-off label.

Em, I'm pretty sure that's not how labels work:

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This is paint:


And this is a label (technically several):

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The takeaway here is that you can't actually paint with a label.

*Not in fact a spoiler.

[gadren]

However, with a certain character archetype, one has noticed that authors tend to "identify" with the characters they create. Such characters are extremely charismatic or extremely noble, or exemplify some other trait that the authors either believe they have or would like to see in themselves. They might have powers/abilities/friends that allow them to act with careless regard to consequences, being occasionally oblivious of them in fact, and still have it somehow work out.

Most of the time, this makes for extremely limited character development and makes plotlines seem deus ex machina and sort of uninteresting.

Now I'm not saying this applies to Cade or Twice Blessed in any way, but I am sort of non-commitally implying it in a circuitous way that I hope will not give offence. :-)

Yeah, the self-insert author avatar. Also known as the Mary-Sue (or Marty Stu). Cade is a parody of the Marty Stu, as I lampshaded pretty early-on with the conversation between Brevis and Loquais (the drow twins). If you are really curious about Cade's relation to me (the author) read the spoiler below, but it might give away future plot:

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Cade actually was a Marty-Stu of mine from my younger years. He was a D&D character of mine in multiple campaigns, and I wrote several (bad) short stories about him as a teenager. Cade was everything I wish I was back when I thought that the most important things in life were sex and popularity (two things I was getting none of.) Cade actually shaped a lot of who I am today, and eventually helped me realize what really was most important in life. (How a fictional character I made up did that is a much longer story, that maybe I'll put down some day.)
At any rate, as I matured, Cade became a joke. He is like a nicer version of Gaston from beauty and the beast, Glorius Maximum from a Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, Metroman from Megamind, or the fake personas of Jacomo from The Court Jester or Flynn Rider from Tangled. He is cheesy and WAY over the top, and the other characters are well aware of it. He is a giant ham. When he enters the room you should step back, because he TAKES LARGE STEPS. He is a lover of beauty, and a beauty of a lover :cheesywink: ... you get the idea.
At any rate, there is depth below all his layers of cheese, it just might take a while to see it.

[H Birchgrove]

But an Author Avatar doesn't have to be a Mary Sue or Gary Stu per se, right? It's only when the character is clearly made to be perfect (or possibly just heroic, or a make-believe character, considering the criticism against Conan the Barbarian and James Bond).

Then again, I don't see why it would be a problem if I created a Barbarian Hero based on my personality, as long as he wasn't perfect all the time. Far from it, in fact.

[Nerd-o-rama]

To randomly chime in, a lot of Dan Simmons's short stories star obvious author inserts (ruggedly intelligent Coloradans who like mountain-climbing), but none of them are Gary Stus.

Cade sounds like he was one, though, and I guess that's the point of the anecdote.

[gadren]

For the record, the term Mary Sue was first coined by Star Trek fans to refer to any main character in a fan fic that was an author-insert. These characters often (but not always) had the characteristics we associate with Mary Sue's today, and the term kind of mutated.

TV Tropes gives a better history of the term:

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"The name "Mary Sue" comes from the 1974 Star Trek fanfic "A Trekkie's Tale". Originally written as a parody of the standard Self Insert Fic of the time (as opposed to any particular traits), the name was quickly adopted by the Star Trek fanfiction community. Its original meaning mostly held that it was an Always Female Author Avatar, regardless of character role or perceived quality. Often, the characters would get in a relationship with either Kirk or Spock, turn out to have a familial bond with a crew member, be a Half-Human Hybrid masquerading as a human, and die in a graceful, beautiful way to reinforce that the character was Too Good For This Sinful Earth. (Or space, as the case may be.)
Even back then, there wasn't a total consensus on what was or wasn't Mary Sue, since it's not always immediately obvious which character is an Author Avatar. As this essay reveals, suspiciously Mary Sue-like characters were noted in subscriber-submitted articles for 19th-century childrens' magazines, making this trope Older Than You Think.
The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.
She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting; if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal. She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc. Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series. (See Common Mary Sue Traits for more detail on any of these cliches.)
In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.
Over time, a male variant started to see use. Marty Stu (also known as Gary Stu, for those who prefer rhyme to alliteration) wasn't really that much different from Mary. Also an Author Avatar, it usually had implications of being a male crew member that tended to completely outshine established canon members in their roles and often become the best starship captain, ever. See The Ace. Since the female characters of Star Trek were all in secondary roles at best, the relationship angle was generally disregarded as being any sort of qualifier. Because of the not-entirely-unjustified perception that Most Fanfic Writers Are Girls, Marty Stu didn't really catch on for a long time."

[Morph Bark]

[troll]You guys know nothing! Of course it's a ripoff of OotS! It's a webcomic, and in D&D! It even have bard as a protagonist!And a dwarf! Coincidence? I think not!

Have you seen Die Hard? It's a rip off of OotS - the protagonist is BALD and badass!! Jeez, people can't think of anything new? Where the world has got to

And Harry Potter is a rip off Twilight![/troll]

And Samuel L. Jackson obviously ripped off his look from Roy. He's black and bald and badass after all! He even wielded a sword!

Still, I have to say that the dwarf and the mage make it seem a little bit interesting. If the focus won't be too much on Cade, I think I will like this. While I often like the comic relief type of character the most in a series, they are incredibly hard to pull off right as a main character, or they need to have several other equally important main characters beside them (as in LotR) or have qualities that make them stop just short from being over-the-top in comic relief and have their redeeming factors (which may not necessarily be morally redeeming, as in the case of Jack Sparrow).

[H Birchgrove]

Thanks Nerd-o-rama and gadren!

I think the only (relevant) difference between the Mary Sue/Marty Stu type and The Ace type is that readers/viewers/(players?) like The Ace, and therefor "forgive" him or her for being unrealistically awesome. So fans of Doc Savage, James Bond and Buckaroo Banzai will think of them as Aces, while haters will think of them as Marty Stus.

(But there can only be one Ace Rimmer... What a guy! )

[gadren]

Thanks Nerd-o-rama and gadren!

I think the only (relevant) difference between the Mary Sue/Marty Stu type and The Ace type is that readers/viewers/(players?) like The Ace, and therefor "forgive" him or her for being unrealistically awesome. So fans of Doc Savage, James Bond and Buckaroo Banzai will think of them as Aces, while haters will think of them as Marty Stus.

(But there can only be one Ace Rimmer... What a guy! )

If we are talking tropes, "The Ace is rarely the protagonist, typically acting as the living embodiment of Always Someone Better instead. They'll drive the protagonist to greater efforts (either out of envy or by inspiring them). As such, if they're a main character, expect them to be either The Rival or The Mentor. If they're a minor but reoccurring character, then they'll almost certainly be Hero of Another Story."

[Nerd-o-rama]

Indeed. When The Ace is the main character, it is usually because you are, in face, reading Mary Sue fanfiction where the author has inserted or possessed someone with himself or herself as both viewpoint and solver of all problems.

Or you're reading Heroic Fantasy. At least The Aceness is usually made up for there with some Sophoclean tragic flaw or just a general tendency to cause more problems than you solve.

[gadren]

Still, I have to say that the dwarf and the mage make it seem a little bit interesting. If the focus won't be too much on Cade, I think I will like this. While I often like the comic relief type of character the most in a series, they are incredibly hard to pull off right as a main character, or they need to have several other equally important main characters beside them (as in LotR) or have qualities that make them stop just short from being over-the-top in comic relief and have their redeeming factors (which may not necessarily be morally redeeming, as in the case of Jack Sparrow).

There are six main protagonists, two of which are about 20% more "main" than the other 4. (Like, if we are talking about importance to the plot, and compared Twice Blessed's plot to Lord of the Rings, Cade and Delbin would be as important as Frodo and Sam, and the other four are at about Aragorn level of importance. Melchior maybe a little bit more, but not in a way you'd expect.)

They are:
1. Cade Masters, Paladin/Bard
2. Delbin Black, Assassin
3. Melchior Latese, Wizard
4. Vadim Valntipur, Fighter
5. Pella Brightwing, Arcane Archer
6. Rua Rundamair, Witch

There will be plenty of other important recurring characters too. You've already seen Mig the Kobold bounty hunter, and the drow twins Brevis and Loquis.

[mikeejimbo]

Hahaha noodle incident. Nice one.

[Howler Dagger]

I think I will be keeping up with this from now on.

[H Birchgrove]

How do you fantasy authors come up with such great, fitting names for your characters? Seriously, I'm terrible at that. I will probably end up naming an Elven Wizard "Bertil Jönsson" and a Dwarven Crusader "John Edgar Bullock".

If we are talking tropes, "The Ace is rarely the protagonist, typically acting as the living embodiment of Always Someone Better instead. They'll drive the protagonist to greater efforts (either out of envy or by inspiring them). As such, if they're a main character, expect them to be either The Rival or The Mentor. If they're a minor but reoccurring character, then they'll almost certainly be Hero of Another Story."

Indeed. When The Ace is the main character, it is usually because you are, in face, reading Mary Sue fanfiction where the author has inserted or possessed someone with himself or herself as both viewpoint and solver of all problems.

Or you're reading Heroic Fantasy. At least The Aceness is usually made up for there with some Sophoclean tragic flaw or just a general tendency to cause more problems than you solve.

Assuming Tarzan, Conan, Doc Savage, James Bond* etc are all Marty Stus... How come they are or at least were popular? Can a Marty Stu be (relatively) well-written and meaningful? Or do their perfectness simply appeal to fans who enjoy the escapism for the same reasons as the creators? (Assuming they didn't just create them to get food on the table, as was probably the case for many pulp heroes and pulp writers.)

* Ian Fleming's original James Bond of the books could be seen as a hero with a tragic flaw. He do angst at times over the morality of his profession, he is not invincible, and he has been compared with Greek mythological heroes like Achilles and Theseus.

BTW, with the risk of getting side-tracked, TV Tropes has a habbit of being quite specific over how a trope works or is identified, and then uses (or misuses) it for several characters and/or stories. For example: If a "Heroic Sociopath" is supposed to be 1. Chaotic Evil or the very least Chaotic Neutral and 2. over-the-top humerous, then why is it used for characters like Batman (Post-Crisis), Rorshach (Watchmen), Mike Hammer, etc? Batman is supposed to be good (nevermind whatever lulzy alignment charts says) and cool one-liners ain't the same as being over-the-top. (Compare with Belkar Bitterleaf, who is a perfect example of how a Heroic Sociopath is supposed to be according to the main "Heroic Sociopath" article.)

[Nerd-o-rama]

First, regarding TV Tropes examples: 90% of example-writers (Sturgeon's Law, don't blame me) don't read the articles, they just plug whatever they like, and no one ever deletes examples.

On the subject of Conan, Tarzan, and Doc Savage, I'd file all of them under Heroic Fantasy, actually, even though they're only loosely connected to the high fantasy I was personally thinking of. Pulp action fiction is heavy in parallels to fantasy and mythology - obviously, moreso with Conan, but you know what I mean. The closer you cleave to the Hero's Journey, the more likely you are to write a character who manages to go everywhere and do everything.

James Bond, though, is a legit Marty Stu who's just entertaining to watch. At least in the movies. Never read the books.

[H Birchgrove]

Now I understand! Thanks Nerd-o-rama!

[gadren]

How do you fantasy authors come up with such great, fitting names for your characters? Seriously, I'm terrible at that. I will probably end up naming an Elven Wizard "Bertil Jönsson" and a Dwarven Crusader "John Edgar Bullock".

Well, I use two techniques for coming up with names:
Technique 1: Brainstorm as many names as I can think of for the character rapid-fire, typing them all down even if I think they're stupid. Eventually a good one comes out. I find (IMO) that the best hero names are one syllable with a two-syllable surname, and that the best villain/anti-hero names are two syllables with a one syllable surname.
Technique 2: Blatant theft. So I guess in a small way the original poster was right. When I can't think of a name, I use someone else's. Sometimes I change it a little. For example, Vadim was the name of my Russian fencing instructor when I was a teenager. Whenever I hear Vadim the dwarf talk, I hear Vadim the fencing master's voice. Melchior is the name of one of the magi from the bible. Rua is the name of an Irish band I really like (and is also the celtic word for red). Pella originally was an NPC in a game I ran a few years back, and she was based on a girl I was very close with in art school who had the nickname Bella. So Pixie + Bella = Pella.

James Bond, though, is a legit Marty Stu who's just entertaining to watch. At least in the movies. Never read the books.

It is very difficult to pull of a Marty Stu that is actually fun to watch/read, but when it is done right I love them. Always been a James Bond fan. He's a bit more "human" in the books, and less Marty Stu-ish.
Jarlaxle is an example of a Marty Stu in fiction that I can't get enough of.

[H Birchgrove]

Thanks gadren!

[gadren]

Alright, I think I stalled enough with Melchior's journal, I should probably start posting chapter 2

[gadren]

First page of chapter 2 is now posted, for those who are interested: http://www.twiceblessedcomic.com/?webcomic_post=19

[Occasional Sage]

There will be plenty of other important recurring characters too. You've already seen Mig the Kobold bounty hunter, and the drow twins Brevis and Loquis.

I like "brief" and "loquacious" as name-starters for these two. Very fitting.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Hmm... Pella Brightwing reminds me of Escalla from the Paul Kidd Greyhawk novels, at least at first glance. Looking forward to this section!

[gadren]

Hmm... Pella Brightwing reminds me of Escalla from the Paul Kidd Greyhawk novels, at least at first glance. Looking forward to this section!

Oh yeah? What is Escalla like?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Oh yeah? What is Escalla like?

Cute, sassy, vain as a cat, smart, 10th level magic user, and a Princess in the Unseelie Court. Spells tend towards "insectile" (magic missiles are bees, can communicate with giant ants), and she has a tendency for using magic to create physical comedy (Grease is a favorite spell with her.)

She was a spy, captured by the Justicar (he goes by Jus). The Justicar is a large, muscular, shaven head ranger with a sentient hell hound pelt named Cinders. Cinders is still alive, can spew flames three times a day, and is fireproof. Jus and Escalla are now partners (and eventually become husband and wife) striving for Truth, Justice (and as many gold coins as Escalla thinks she can slip into her pockets without Jus noticing).

There were three books, all based on some of the early D&D Adventures (Modules): White Plume Mountain, Descent Into the Depths of the Earth, and Queen of the Demonweb pits. There were two short stories, Keoland Blues and one I don't remember the title to in Dragon Magazine. Keoland Blues had Escalla in it, the other was how Jus met Cinders, and how Cinders lost his insides.

They are a little hard to find these days, but I believe they were the most popular of the Greyhawk books published in 1999-2001 timeframe.

[gadren]

Cute, sassy, vain as a cat, smart, 10th level magic user, and a Princess in the Unseelie Court. Spells tend towards "insectile" (magic missiles are bees, can communicate with giant ants), and she has a tendency for using magic to create physical comedy (Grease is a favorite spell with her.)

She was a spy, captured by the Justicar (he goes by Jus). The Justicar is a large, muscular, shaven head ranger with a sentient hell hound pelt named Cinders. Cinders is still alive, can spew flames three times a day, and is fireproof. Jus and Escalla are now partners (and eventually become husband and wife) striving for Truth, Justice (and as many gold coins as Escalla thinks she can slip into her pockets without Jus noticing).

There were three books, all based on some of the early D&D Adventures (Modules): White Plume Mountain, Descent Into the Depths of the Earth, and Queen of the Demonweb pits. There were two short stories, Keoland Blues and one I don't remember the title to in Dragon Magazine. Keoland Blues had Escalla in it, the other was how Jus met Cinders, and how Cinders lost his insides.

They are a little hard to find these days, but I believe they were the most popular of the Greyhawk books published in 1999-2001 timeframe.

Interesting. Pella is more like an easily excited miniature warrior princess.

[Sedgewood]

LOL, I suppose it is.

"One's a swashbuckling lady... The other is a humorless undead assassin. Together, they fight crime!"

*cue catchy theme song*

Ahhh, so it's a LEXX ripoff. I see.