Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[The Glyphstone]

EDIT: Darius, Space Wolf Terminators most certainly can ride in Drop Pods--otherwise, they wouldn't be able to Deep Strike at all.

Normal Terminators Deep Strike by teleportation. What makes Space Wolf Terminators different?

[pilvento]

Normal Terminators Deep Strike by teleportation. What makes Space Wolf Terminators different?

Its in the codex, the space wolf chapter does not belive in teleportation...

A squad of ultramarines teleport...
Logan Grimar: WOWOWOW WITCHCRAFT!

[Hawkfrost000]

Which would be true if they didn't have Counter-Assault special rule.

Yes.

They are made to be used in the assault phase, they are kinda shooty but having them use two plasmaguns is kinda a waste of potential.

Darius Macab, you were asking why Ithilanor's drop pods don't have wolf guard. Well, the Wolves have economy drop pods that hold ten models, not twelve.

My local SW player has Wolf Guard in his Rhinos, i think its worth it, having been ground into the dust by them repeatedly, but you may not.

EDIT: Darius, Space Wolf Terminators most certainly can ride in Drop Pods--otherwise, they wouldn't be able to Deep Strike at all.

On revision of the SW's dex i see you are correct.

DM

[Teln]

Its in the codex, the space wolf chapter does not belive in teleportation...

A squad of ultramarines teleport...
Logan Grimar: WOWOWOW WITCHCRAFT!

Alternatively:

*Ultramarines squad teleports into a cliffside*
Logan Grimnar: Okay, from now on we're using Deep Strike methods that prevent this sort of thing.

[The Glyphstone]

Its in the codex, the space wolf chapter does not belive in teleportation...

A squad of ultramarines teleport...
Logan Grimar: WOWOWOW WITCHCRAFT!

Alternatively:

*Ultramarines squad teleports into a cliffside*
Logan Grimnar: Okay, from now on we're using Deep Strike methods that prevent this sort of thing.

Interesting. Though honestly, I see it more being like:

*Ultramarines terminators teleport*
Logan Grimnar: "That's how Ultramarines do it? Okay, get to work figuring out a way to Deep Strike that's absolutely anything except how they do it. Cause we don't follow no stinking Codex!"

[Ninjaman]

Not at all dear chap, it's just that I can honestly say that I must beat the average a lot because it is a rare day when I don't do a lot better than your figures suggest.

And as for my derision of stats, it's not derision of the idea itself, it's bemused nonacceptance of the belief that everything can be predicted by them.

First of all: i did say that i forgot the re-roll use the math from Squark below (thanks Squark)
Second of all: we don't think we can predict everything, (actually we can predict close to nothing). But it just gives you a better idea, and we don't think you can get around mathhammer.

Alright, time to break out my calculus lessons! (That's where I learned this, anyway).

Now, what we'll end up having here is an infinite geometric sum, an equation for which can be found here. As far as variables go, a=4, and r=35/54 (2/3 * 35/36). So, the average number of orcs this furioso will kill is equal to 4/(1-35/54), which comes out to 11.37.


For comparison, if the dreadnaught isn't charging, it should kill 8.53 orks on average.

Pretty impressive if all that can wound it in that mob is the power klaw.

[ZeltArruin]

After reading his fluff, I kinda see Grimnar as the Fonz, he walks into the room with other chapter masters and does that finger snap pointing thing and says,"Eeeeyyyyyyy!" The other chapter masters respond with much the same. Logan is a cool guy.

[Trixie]

Which has a decidedly non-zero chance of derping out on you right when you need it. Charging both guarantees that you get the extra attack, and prevents the opponent from getting any goodies like Furious Charge. Plus, there's some debate about whether or not the Wolf Standard has to be activated in the shooting phase. If your opponent's being anal, charging guarantees that the Standard won't go to waste. Lastly, it's nice to occasionally use those Bolt Pistols for something other than the bonus attack.

Doubletap bolters: 2 S4 attacks hitting on 3+, plus special guns.
Enemy charges you: 3 attacks back (2 if ability derps) at S4 hitting on 4+.

Pistols: 1 S4 attack hitting on 3+.
Charges you: 3 attacks back at S4 hitting on 4+.

Not only is 4/5 (with better chance of hit) > 4 (with smaller), you also take smaller losses if enemy is I5+. Halberd GK, Eldar, Genestealers and a lot of other troops love if you assaults instead of doubletapping.

Virtually the only time charge is better is with I3- enemies with Furious Charge (read - some ork units, BT with second worst Vow). Or, if enemy has a lot better shooting than melee, maybe.

[Squark]

First of all: i did say that i forgot the re-roll use the math from Squark below (thanks Squark)
Second of all: we don't think we can predict everything, (actually we can predict close to nothing). But it just gives you a better idea, and we don't think you can get around mathhammer.

Keep in mind a bell curve would be a lot more effective at showing the actual probabilities. But I haven't actually had a statistics class, so I have no idea how to create one.

As far as mathhammer goes... It's a tool. You don't rely on it for everything, but it can let you evaluate certain things.

Let me show you an example. Let's say we're debating the effectiveness of Hammernators vs. 3e Pariahs. (for simplicities sake, we'll assume 5 terminators vs. 10 Pariahs, since those are the numbers I usually saw them in)

It the pariahs get the Charge, they'll get 20 attacks, will hit with half of those attacks, and wound with 2/3 of those hits. This means, on average, the Pariahs will wipe the squad more often than not.

If the terminators get the charge, 3.33333 terminators will be killed, while 2 terminators will kill 2.5 Pariahs.

I think the real problem is a lot of people stop here with the calculations. But the math doesn't. There are a lot of variables here, and if you worked out a bit more, you could get a fairly accurate representation of what the likely outcomes are. And even then, the first rule of statistics (as far as I'm concerned), is that the real world never perfectly models the [projected] statistics. With a large enough sample size, it often comes close, but in the course of a single game... Anything could happen. To continue the above example, all 10 Pariahs could miss completely, while the terminators could get 10 hits and 10 wounds.

The universe is a big place, and you could beat the bell curve anywhere...

[ArqArturo]

Its in the codex, the space wolf chapter does not belive in teleportation...

A squad of ultramarines teleport...
Logan Grimar: WOWOWOW WITCHCRAFT!

I'm sure the teleportation does not sit well with the industrial ammounts of food and ale they eat in their feasts.

[Renegade Paladin]

Normal Terminators Deep Strike by teleportation. What makes Space Wolf Terminators different?

They don't have the Deep Strike rule.

There's nothing anywhere in any codex that says drop pods can't carry Terminators. Terminators just can't take them in other codices. You could totally put a Terminator-armored IC in with something that can, though.

[ArqArturo]

I have a doubt on the Grey Knights, do they have to make a roll for Perils of the Warp? I see this mentioned a bit in the IG codex I borrowed from a friend when they mention psykers.

[userpay]

So for a 1000 point Space Wolves army whats better if either are even a viable choice for this point value. A Land Raider Crusader or a squad of Thunderwolf Calvary that's 4 or 5 strong?

[Hawkfrost000]

So for a 1000 point Space Wolves army whats better if either are even a viable choice for this point value. A Land Raider Crusader or a squad of Thunderwolf Calvary that's 4 or 5 strong?

The second one.

With as many storm shields and lightning claws as possible.

DM

[BoSheck]

So for a 1000 point Space Wolves army whats better if either are even a viable choice for this point value. A Land Raider Crusader or a squad of Thunderwolf Calvary that's 4 or 5 strong?

The second one. Don't take too many special weapons, you lose rending and stop being as big a threat to vehicles.

260 points gets you 4 loaded out as such: 1x power fist, 1x storm shield, 1x melta bomb, 1x no wargear.

You will make many friends.

Posting a 1500 (actually 1503, but whatever) points Space Wolves list for review!

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Rune Priest - 130 pts
-Terminator armor, Chooser of the Slain
-Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane

Wolf Lord - 205 pts
-Terminator armor with storm bolter, wolf claw
-Belt of Russ, Saga of the Bear

Wolfguard battle leader on thunderwolf mount, with runic armor, a wolf claw, a storm shield and 2x fenrisian wolves (for extra wounds) - 205. Can still make sweeping advances. At any rate I've never been happy with a wolf lord HQ tooled up like that. If you want a close combat monster go thunderlord, if you want a deep striking threat that presents resiliance and a backup to your grey hunters get a dreadnought or a unit of scouts (the guy costs almost two).

Grey Hunters (x10) - 205 pts
-2xMeltaguns, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod

Grey Hunters (x10) - 225 pts
-2xPlasma guns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod

Grey Hunters (x10) - 190 pts
-2xPlasma guns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen

So basically, I like the plasma guns. People are going to tell you they suck, and sometimes they do. I would consider two units of meltahunters and one of plasma, though.

The real problem is that you should lose your power swords. Mark of the wulfen is a good way to spend 15 points but I've personally found it underwhelming in grey hunters.

Wolf Guard (x6) - 293 pts
-One model in Terminator armor with wolf claw, storm bolter, cyclone missile launcher
-Four models in Terminator armor with wolf claw, storm bolter
-One model in power armor with boltgun, power fist
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod

Thats a lot to pay for 6 guys. Some of whom are goign to be sitting in the backfield. I'm partial to CML wolfguard, but I tend to hide them in Grey Hunter packs--it puts the power weapon to good use and lets me shoot two missiles at another seperate target if I need to. Beyond that, too many terminators. I'd recommend shaving that down, loading them up with combi meltas and using them as a turn 1 3-melta delivery system directly to your nearest land raider/monolith/russ (or, really, anything except Avatars). They can leave the wolf-lord at home and grab the glory all for themselves.

Long Fangs (x6) - 140 pts
-Missile launchers (x5)

Long Fangs (x6) - 115 pts
-Heavy bolters (x5)

Alright. So. If you have heavy bolters already put together, thats what it is. I'd say go pure missiles, but heavy bolters have been of GREAT use to me before. Great for threatening MCs, and apart from plasmaguns, they're the first thing I want to shoot at terminators.

Because Long Fangs can split fire ,I run my heavy bolter squad as such:
3x missiles/2x heavy bolters. - 130 points. You'd go 3/3, obviously, but that does a few things. one: Ablative wounds for your missile launchers that are actually relevant. 2: It's not clear which squad to fire on, now.

The Rune Priest would usually go with one Long Fang squad, and the Cyclone Wolf Guard with the other Long Fangs. Then I'd split off the power-armored Wolf Guard to go with the footslogging Grey Hunters, and the Wolf Lord would drop in with the 4 remaining Wolf Guard. How's this all look?

Overall: Your rune priest should be with your grey hunters midfield, especially since he's packing hurricane, but he doesn't have to ALWAYS. Thats the beauty of ICs. Wouldn't put him in the forwardmost unit. You can save a lot of points by shaving down grey hunter squads and putting a combi-weapon wolf guard in instead: It discounts the price of power weapons AND gives them a base 2 attacks (great for power fists) AND makes them LD 9 if you insist on keeping them. If you're that attatched to your wolf lord, you can also reduce a grey hunter pack in size to fit him in as well, which would be way better anyway.

[Hawkfrost000]

The second one. Don't take too many special weapons, you lose rending and stop being as big a threat to vehicles.

actually that is the rules for the Thunderwolf Mount wargear, which the Cavalry dont actually have. So they keep rending on all CC attacks.

DM

[BoSheck]

actually that is the rules for the Thunderwolf Mount wargear, which the Cavalry dont actually have. So they keep rending on all CC attacks.

DM

I suggest you read the FAQ.

Q. Does a Thunderwolf Cavalry model with a special close
combat weapon (eg a thunder hammer) still have rending
attacks? (p34)
A. No. The description of the Thunderwolf mount on page
62 says that it ʻ… has the Rending special rule in close
combat with any attack that does not use a special close
combat weaponʼ. This applies to Thunderwolf Cavalry as
well (and Canis Wolfborn, for that matter).

Edit: This post felt like it came off as sort of snide, which was not the intent. At any rate, they lose rending. You could make an arguement (based off the Dark Angels FAQ) that they could choose not to use their lightning claw/powersword/whatever but thats weak at best--the Space Wolf FAQ is fairly clear on the matter anyway.

[Trixie]

The second one.

With as many storm shields and lightning claws as possible.

Read: one?

Plus, it's kind of terrible idea, you lose both rending and one attacks, if you really need PW going with Frost Blade (S6 and 1 more attack than LC) is better anyway, since you now can ID everything that isn't Marine, threaten walkers and kill Marines on 2+.

Also, depending on his build, Land Raider might be far better choice. Just one unit of Thunderwolves might not even reach the enemy if he is shooty one, or reach him only to kill lesser target and die in his shooting phase.

[lord_khaine]

That last part about ID'ing everything that isnt marines isnt quite correct, especaly not after the apperance of Necrons

[banjo1985]

ID'ing Tau, Imperial Guard and both flavours of Eldar really. Necrons and Orks just stand there grinning. Orks because as long as they have a fight they don't care, and the Necron because it'll more than likely get back up afterwards.

[Trixie]

ID'ing Tau, Imperial Guard and both flavours of Eldar really. Necrons and Orks just stand there grinning.

So, only 50% of the armies? Good enough :P

As for the second part, due to low I of both armies, I'd expect anything but heaviest Death Stars of both codices to poof against Thunderwolves due to fearless wounds or sweeping advance, with no WBB allowed

[banjo1985]

Agreed, the only thing from either army I'd give a chance in CC against tooled up TW's would be a maxed unit of Nobz, and even then the fight will probably result in both units destruction.

To be honest I was just being an obnoxious pedant.

*leaves the thread before he mentions that 50% of all armies most gamers will face will be a flavour of T4 marines anyway*

Although that's never been the case for me, my admittedly small gaming group has no BA or GK, and only the occasional SW, CSM and Vanilla Marine armies floating about. In my neck of the woods it's Orks you see all the time.

I'll stop now.

[lord_khaine]

I'll stop now.

Then i guess its time for me to take over

So, only 50% of the armies? Good enough :P

Actualy now that i think about it, its a lot less than 50% of the eldar
multi-wound models that you can ID with a S6 attack

Agreed, the only thing from either army I'd give a chance in CC against tooled up TW's would be a maxed unit of Nobz, and even then the fight will probably result in both units destruction.

Well, i do suspect Necrons might have a chance as well, with either furiously charging scarabs, wraiths, or maybe even Spyders.

For that matter, Lychguards might also be able to survive this, if they have a Lord to support them with Mindshackle scarabs.

Or maybe a C'than with the right set of powers?

Unfortunately i dont know the exact stats for thunderwolfes, since allmost noone play with them im my local club.

[Provengreil]

My local SW player has Wolf Guard in his Rhinos, i think its worth it, having been ground into the dust by them repeatedly, but you may not.

DM

Not what I meant. The wolves cannot have 11 models in their drop pods, meaning that if they take a wolf guard, their grey hunter pack must have 9 models, not ten, thus denying them a second melta, flamer, or plasma gun, as well as any other upgrades that require the squad to number ten models. whether it's worth it to have a seregeant, ie the wolf guard, now has to be weighed against special weapon redundancy. speaking as a space marine player whose units have very little of this, you want that.

[Provengreil]

So for a 1000 point Space Wolves army whats better if either are even a viable choice for this point value. A Land Raider Crusader or a squad of Thunderwolf Calvary that's 4 or 5 strong?

neither. take a thunderwolf cavalry 3 strong and load them up with 3 storm shields, a power fist, a meltabomb, and play musical wounds. works unbelieveably well, especially if you run 6 inches in one of your first two turns.

[Winterwind]

I have a doubt on the Grey Knights, do they have to make a roll for Perils of the Warp? I see this mentioned a bit in the IG codex I borrowed from a friend when they mention psykers.

The Grey Knight codex is very explicit on how this works for them.
Specifically, if the unit suffers a Perils of the Warp attack, it hits the Justicar (and only him); if he is dead, it hits a single random model of the unit.

Agreed, the only thing from either army I'd give a chance in CC against tooled up TW's would be a maxed unit of Nobz, and even then the fight will probably result in both units destruction.

Properly tooled up Purifiers/Paladins, maybe?

Well, i do suspect Necrons might have a chance as well, with either furiously charging scarabs, wraiths, or maybe even Spyders.

For that matter, Lychguards might also be able to survive this, if they have a Lord to support them with Mindshackle scarabs.

Or maybe a C'than with the right set of powers?

Unfortunately i dont know the exact stats for thunderwolfes, since allmost noone play with them im my local club.

Wraiths might indeed have a chance. Scarabs, Spyders and Lychguard (even with Lord) will be torn apart though. A C'tan... well, I don't have the codex will all the powers in front of me, so maybe, but I'm doubtful. Thunderwolves are some scary puppies.

__

The above mention of Grey Knights segues nicely into the question I was meaning to ask. What do you think is the optimal armament for a Purifier squad that's being carried across the battlefield on board of a Land Raider? I'd originally thought of going with something like "masterful hammer for the Knight of the Flame, 1-2 further hammers, one staff, 6-7 halberds", for maximum close combat potential, but now I've started wondering whether this wasn't overkill on one hand and not generally useful on the other, and whether I shouldn't pack more psycannons instead. And if so, how many psycannons? 4? But that might cut heavily into the Purifiers close combat abilities. Just 2? 4 after all? None?

I was going to post the list in which this was supposed to be used to provide some context, but I'm away from either codex or a written down list, and I find my memory regarding what exactly I had included at which points total is a bit confused, so I guess I'll post that list (with a request for evaluation) later.

[Ninjaman]

So, only 50% of the armies? Good enough :

No.
Imperial guard: Their senior sargant and named characters.
Eldar: Characters, accept for the phoenixlord since they are T4 IIRC
Darkeldar: Characters
Tau: Etheral, which nobody uses, the normal tau commander is T4
Sisters of battle: but they are quite rare.

Since Tau are out that leaves you with:IG and both eldar.
Against:Marines, Tau, Tyranid, Deamons, necrons,orks, chaos spacemarines.

Also note that marines is actally 4 armies (and that is not counting BT and DA )

Edit: as for stuff that can threaten TWC in CC: 10 hammernators with captain?

[Provengreil]

Edit: as for stuff that can threaten TWC in CC: 10 hammernators with captain?

cheesy nobz, hammernators(especially if lysander himself gets involved), genestealers with a bit of luck, and bloodletters at or near max strength are the only things I've ever seen beat thunderwolves at their own game. I'm not a wolf player, but I have 3 friends who abuse the heck out of this unit.

Your best options are shooting. the guard have a tank that is S10 AP4 large blast, which'll instant death them, and If they didn't bring it they're still the guard. the tau can reliably torrent them if they've set their crisis suits up right. Space marines can use tremor shells to keep them at bay for a while until the terminators get involved. grey knights with psycannons and psybolt ammo can do about as well as the tau. I'm sure I've forgotten a few good units for this in other armies, but most of what I didn't list is gonna have to spend a lot of extra effort killing them.

however, the best ant-TWC tactic is literally climb a tree. Cavalry can't climb.

[Ninjaman]

cheesy nobz, hammernators(especially if lysander himself gets involved), genestealers with a bit of luck, and bloodletters at or near max strength are the only things I've ever seen beat thunderwolves at their own game. I'm not a wolf player, but I have 3 friends who abuse the heck out of this unit.

Genestealers will need to be very lucky, they aren't very good at taking thunderwolves.

Another way to beat them in cc: Tervigon termagant spam.
The enemy will charge in on one unit, whipe it out. Then you will charge the wolves with some gant units. Thanks to the tervigons the wound on 4+ and strike at the sametime as the wolves. You will propperbly lose your units due to ''no retreat'', but the wolves will have taken some serious beating.

[BoSheck]

So this turned into a wall of text. Spoilered for ease of viewing.

Spoiler

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While we're on the subject of Thunderwolves, how do people usually run theirs? Depending on point values and just how much dog I want in a list I have a few units I run.

The first thing that ever gets thrown in is 4x t-wolves with 1xfist, 1x shield, 1x meltabomb, and 1x nothing.
The second thing I usually take is a wolf lord on a thunderwolf with a claw, runic armor, storm shield, saga of the warrior born (<-- for less fun), and 2x fenrisian wolves.

For those of you looking at ever running a Thunderlord: Always max out Fenrisian wolves. I cannot stress this enough. It gives you 10 point wounds that suck up those S10 ID attacks--and probably get a cover save.

After I've got a thunderlord and the usual cavalry loadout, I take between 6 and 10 Fenrisian wolves--partially as a throwaway mobile tie-up unit, and sometimes as a walking cover screen for the actual wolves. If Canis is in the list (usually the last thing I'll add) then it lets me start with the thunderlord on the board with 10x wolves midfield. Stretching them out to max coherency means that you can reliably threaten your opponent's entire deployment zone in dawn of war.

Depending on whether I've filled my Elite slots up I'll sometimes take an Iron Priest on thunderwolf with 4x cyberwolves. (I always take wolf scouts to give guard and tau a hard time, as well. Sometimes people deploy closer to my main force because of them. Woo! And you may or may not realize this, but wolf guard are mandatory in a space wolf army.) The entire unit is t5 and it gives me another manueverable cavalry unit with a ton of attacks on the charge as well as s10 for vehicle popping. The great part about this guy is the wolves aren't wargear but part of his unit, so he can't be singled out in CC. The sad part is he's got 1 wound--but free runic armor!

Usually, when I go this far, I put Canis in. He's not a super-awesome IC, but his wargear comes at a discount and if he's in I'm definately using every Fenrisian wolf model I own (yay saga). He's fluffy to boot, plus he can take two fenrisian wolves for more S10 soaking in the main deathstar and is fine to break off and go eat a MSU scout or tactical squad while the bulk of the force charges everywhere.

For protecting your wolves, there's a few times when you just don't charge. If I'm across the table from paladins, I direct the copious amount of meltaguns and missiles that a wolf army brings to the field at them before considering assault. For genestealers...I've played against those plenty, you just wait in terrain and shoot bolters at them.

Hammernators aren't an issue but not a cakewalk. I've thrown down with max black templars w/terminator honors before, barely came out on top after about 3 rounds of close combat. As the terminator player you have to accept that: The thunderwolves can ignore you and move up to 24" in one turn; if they don't they will be the ones getting the charge off.

Versus guard, tau, or shooty marines in my experience one of two things happens: Thunderwolves get torrented down, but the rest of the army manages to close the gap and do what needs to be done or some shooting gets directed away from the cavalry and the front line turns into a bloodbath. (protip: any threatening unit in a drop pod to take the turn 1 heat off the pups/block S10 LOS.)

tl;dr: Thunderwolf tactica/personal preferences.

My entire intention when hitting the reply button was just to ask: What sort of loadouts do you guys who actually play with wolves use on your puppies? I don't care about theory-hammer. What works, when does it fall apart, and what would you do differently?