Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS

[rbetieh]

A bit more fuel for the analysis fire. Anyone want to look into this one? I love how Haleys prediction of Elan being accepted by Ian turned out to be totally wrong....

[zegram 33]

Slightly off topic, but: does everyone think that eugene is a "bad" character?
i only ask because after reading SoD i have a much better opinion of him and he seems a lot more likeable.
I wonder if it will turn out to be the same for the others later on as well?

[TreesOfDeath]

To the best of my knowledge, Redcloak had a happy family. At least has no issues based on a bad mum or dad.

Right Eye seemed like a decent father, even if oldest his son gave him lip (and he was in that rebellious phase of his life)/


You want to find an unfortunate pattern? Watch the Teen Titans cartoon :p

[Lvl45DM!]

Slightly off topic, but: does everyone think that eugene is a "bad" character?
i only ask because after reading SoD i have a much better opinion of him and he seems a lot more likeable.
I wonder if it will turn out to be the same for the others later on as well?

Bad character or bad person?
He's a decent character but seems a pretty scummy guy

[t209]

Bad character or bad person?
He's a decent character but seems a pretty scummy guy

He kinda hated Roy for picking Fighter class.

[rbetieh]

He kinda hated Roy for picking Fighter class.

Well, I think any father that knew his son could be a lawyer/politician but his son picked cop instead might be inclined to resent the decision. The boy had a mind and he wasted it, other people (Thog/Elan/Belkar) aren't that lucky....

[dancrilis]

He kinda hated Roy for picking Fighter class.

I would not say hate, he did after all pay for it.

Ultimately Eugene is a good guy, a Lawful Good guy in fact.

He is merely the kind of Lawful Good that puts the needs of the many above the needs of the few and is powerless to do anything right now.

When Roy was dead we saw some of that mentality from him also, now imagine that over years without access to mountain, for example if Xykon had incinerated Roy with the Meteor Swarm, he might be bitter also after a while.

I would see Eugene as a good father but one that never saw eye to eye with his now adult son, and as such with Roy as the protagonist Eugene looks bad, we would really need to see how he acts with Eric, Julia and Sara to get a better picture of him, and some flashbacks to when he was alive.

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Ultimately Start of Darkness covered the above for me mostly, with some back up in comic from Sara when she spoke about him.

[Kish]

I would see Eugene as a good father but one that never saw eye to eye with his now adult son,

He was enraged to discover his son was getting into Heaven instead of being stuck outside of it, like him. And you see him as a good father?

Is there anything he could do that would convince you he's a bad father?

[dancrilis]

He was enraged to discover his son was getting into Heaven instead of being stuck outside of it, like him. And you see him as a good father?

I don't think he was angry that Roy got in but that Roy got in when he didn't, which he saw as unfair.

To be honest he has a point, Roy died fighting Xykon in honour of the blood oath, sure.
However there are two possibilities with Eugene:
1: He got in to heaven before his final death despite his actions/inactions and that it was only at the end when he was rejected, as such having the Deva state 'It is not a problem for us' would be grating.
2: He never got in regardless of whether he was pursuing the oath or not, as such it would be grating to see Roy get in due to the a different Deva on a different day reviewing the case.

Further Eugene does not care about getting into heaven, not really, had V destroyed Xykon Eugene would have been denied heaven for eternity, and for the looks of things he would not have minded.

He is the only person in heaven that actually seems to really care about the continual existence of the universe, and the only non-mortal full stop that is not trying to take over the universe or sitting on his hands.

This marks him as a good man.

Is there anything he could do that would convince you he's a bad father?

He could do something that indicates he is a bad father.

So far he has funded Roy through college with no expectation of reward, or even recognition, he has shown up and offered Roy advise that may have saved the party, he has breached the laws of heaven to assist Roy again.

Spoiler from SOD:

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And he has done all this not to destroy Xykon, as he clearly thinks Julia has a better shot at that then Roy

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[Kish]

[...]
However there are two possibilities with Eugene:
1: He got in to heaven before his final death despite his actions/inactions and that it was only at the end when he was rejected, as such having the Deva state 'It is not a problem for us' would be grating.
2: He never got in regardless of whether he was pursuing the oath or not, as such it would be grating to see Roy get in due to the a different Deva on a different day reviewing the case.

3. He never died before he met Xyklon the Consequential when he was a mere level 9 wizard and abandoned the Blood Oath, and thus never got in.

I mean, not that I actually think that's a possibility; I'm pretty sure it's a certainty. But really, I'm not sure why I'm bothering. The fact that he screams WHAT?! and looks utterly enraged on learning his son will get into heaven should put the kibosh on any suggestion that he isn't a dreadful father whatever his justifications for it.

Further Eugene does not care about getting into heaven, not really, had V destroyed Xykon Eugene would have been denied heaven for eternity,

That's a huge assumption you're making, mated to another huge assumption that Eugene is making the same assumption.

He could do something that indicates he is a bad father.

Glib. And I think we're done here.

[zegram 33]

i disagree
In SOD he's a very good father, because

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he refuses to kill Xykon because if he failed it would endanger his family

the fact that he pts his family above vengance marks him as a good man in my opinion.

yes, when you see him in the comic he's old and jaded and crotchety, but lets face it, many old people ARE

[dancrilis]

He never died before he met Xyklon the Consequential when he was a mere level 9 wizard and abandoned the Blood Oath, and thus never got in.

But then it would likely have been explained by the celestial conducting the review that it would be a requirement for him prior to his final death.

But really, I'm not sure why I'm bothering.

That is not something I can answer for you, you may wish to examine your thoughts and motivations.

The fact that he screams WHAT?! and looks utterly enraged on learning his son will get into heaven should put the kibosh on any suggestion that he isn't a dreadful father whatever his justifications for it.

That implies that he was focused on his son getting in and not focusing on the perceived unfairness of the situation, which he might have been but I would not be how I read the strip.

That's a huge assumption you're making, mated to another huge assumption that Eugene is making the same assumption.

Not really if anyone could complete the bloodoath then Eugene would not have to focus on members of his immediate family to complete it, the oath would not need to pass to Julia, Eugene could focus on any of the competing powers for Xykon's destruction.

Glib

Thanks you however I feel you may by confused my answer was not truly and artfully persuasive in speech, had I asked you the question 'Is there anything he could do that would convince you he's a good father? ', you have the choice of listing out all the potential items that could (taking into account that you may miss some), denying that anything could (regardless of what may transpire in the series, either in the future or in the backstory), or say something that is the equivalent of 'He could do something that indicates he is a good father'.
I answered in the most honest manner possible, however I would not have considered it overly artful.

And I think we're done here.

Very well, perhaps of you find the answer to your query on your motivations we can continue.

In SOD he's a very good father

Agreed.

[Juggling Goth]

Redcloak's parents are irrelevant to the story; his father could have been a saint for all we know, but he wasn't killed by the Sapphire Guard.

Darn, I assumed he was, and that was why Redcloak's uncle was there instead. Although I guess that still allows for him having been killed by adventurers. In my brain, goblins have extended family groups to make up for the young males mostly getting killed early.

[Lvl45DM!]

I've seen the SoD argument pop up a bit about Eugene. "He's good cos he let go of vengeance to save his family."
His family including:
his wife Sara - who he has now abandoned without remorse
his son Roy - who he sent on his quest rather than trying to finish it himself putting Roy in the very danger he tried to avoid earlier. Note that he sent Roy on the quest to kill Xykon, AFAIK, before anyone knew about the world ending potential of the gates. He sent Roy to kill Xykon for the simple selfish reason of him getting into heaven.
his daughter Julia -who he plans on sending after Xykon ASAP
and his son Eric - who he got killed somehow

The only person who's life he didn't/isn't planning on ruining was his wife and thats only cos they've managed to avoid each other in the afterlife. The attempt to save his family has almost completely been invalidated. And is the opposite of "needs of the many, needs of the few" mentality that could also justify his actions.

[Kish]

his son Roy - who he sent on his quest rather than trying to finish it himself putting Roy in the very danger he tried to avoid earlier. Note that he sent Roy on the quest to kill Xykon, AFAIK, before anyone knew about the world ending potential of the gates. He sent Roy to kill Xykon for the simple selfish reason of him getting into heaven.

There's also that bonus strip in NCFTPB where he

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tells Shojo blithely that he doesn't expect Roy to succeed, but he might gather information to help Julia before his inevitable death

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[Psyren]

EDIT: Whoops, wrong thread. Please disregard.

[The Oni]

Theory: The universe follows D&D rules, which means:

A.) PCs will be prone to adventuring, abandoning parental responsibilities

B.) There are more male D&D players than female D&D players, so it stands to reason there should be more male PCs than female PCs. (No intentional sexism here, just reflecting real-world dynamics.)

C.) All PCs to some degree make lousy parents.

D.) Male PCs adventure for longer than Female PCs (on average).
Corollary: Vaarsuvius is probably the "dad" in whatever ambiguously-termed relationship V. and Inkyrius have.

Therefore D&D dads will have a tendency to suck.

[MtlGuy]

Let's start with Eugene. We didn't really got to see how Eugene interacted with Roy's sister Julia. Perhaps they had a better relationship because they were both Wizards? Should he be condemned for having the same strained relationship with his warrior son that he did with his warrior father? Roy's mom doesn't appear or behave in a saintly manner, she's kicking back in the afterlife and enjoying herself. Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't cannonize her just for comparing favourably to Eugene being Eugene.

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There's some material in the print exclusive titles that implies that Eugene has a better relationship with Julia, as he believes her to be capable of fulfilling the blood oath rather than Roy. Eugene's headstone lists him as a 'master mage, devoted husband and passable father.'

Tarquin, you have him dead to rights. Especially after what he just did in #913, and how he played it in #914.

Ian Starshine, given the family circumstances I'd cut him some slack. He taught Haley to survive, if not to live. By all accounts its a dangerous and unpredictable world, let alone that city Haley was growing up in. Haley's mom would of course be idealized, having died.

Belkar believes spending time with family is a form of torture, so make of that what you will.

[Kish]

ed relationship with his warrior son that he did with his warrior father. Roy's mom doesn't appear or behave in a saintly manner, she's kicking back in the afterlife and enjoying herself. Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't cannonize her just for comparing favourably to Eugene being Eugene.

That sounds like it hinges on a concept of "saintly" as involving "ascetic." Sara is--like Roy's girlfriend Celia, actually--morally unimpeachable; she even tells Roy not to be so hard on Eugene.

[Dracon1us]

Slightly off topic, but: does everyone think that eugene is a "bad" character?
i only ask because after reading SoD i have a much better opinion of him and he seems a lot more likeable.
I wonder if it will turn out to be the same for the others later on as well?

good guy, but bad father.
not all lawful good people are alike.
he's very human, he's flawed. But he fathered a Hero.

[Shale]

That sounds like it hinges on a concept of "saintly" as involving "ascetic." Sara is--like Roy's girlfriend Celia, actually--morally unimpeachable; she even tells Roy not to be so hard on Eugene.

I wouldn't call Celia "morally unimpeachable." She's pacifistic to the point where she's willing to put innocent people in mortal danger rather than engage in self-defense. "My code of conduct is more important than your well-being" is the kind of thing that gets the Lawful Neutral afterlife looking in your direction (metaphorically, I know she doesn't get an afterlife). Sara (and Mama Elan, and Mrs. Starshine), though, yeah.

[Amphiox]

I wouldn't call Celia "morally unimpeachable." She's pacifistic to the point where she's willing to put innocent people in mortal danger rather than engage in self-defense.

I must point out that this pattern of behavior is not ONLY compatible with an ethical failing (though it could be). It could just as easily be produced by extreme inexperience and naivete, where a character simply lacks the life experience to properly contextualize the meaning of "mortal danger to others" in the heat of highly emotional moments. ie, like a teenager, they fail to take into account the welfare of others not because they are callous, but simply because they don't realize or recognize in the situation at hand that the welfare of others was actually at stake.

Celia has this in spades. She doesn't really understand the meaning of "mortal danger" on an emotional level, only an intellectual one. In a highly charged emotional moment, she'll have a tendency to forget the intellectual considerations in favor of emotional ones. The instinctive emotional aversion to committing violence herself completely overrides the intellectual understanding that doing so puts others in danger, and she doesn't have an emotional conception of other people being in danger to use instead.

If we end up seeing her again, her experiences with Haley (and if Roy is around to guide her) could easily mean that this aspect of her behavior has changed. She may well have already undergone character growth over this issue. It's just that we don't see it, since it happens while Celia is "off-narrative".

[zimmerwald1915]

I wouldn't call Celia "morally unimpeachable." She's pacifistic to the point where she's willing to put innocent people in mortal danger rather than engage in self-defense. "My code of conduct is more important than your well-being" is the kind of thing that gets the Lawful Neutral afterlife looking in your direction (metaphorically, I know she doesn't get an afterlife). Sara (and Mama Elan, and Mrs. Starshine), though, yeah.

Yeah, funny that, how the more story a character has devoted to them, the less morally unimpeachable they start seeming.

[Amphiox]

Yeah, funny that, how the more story a character has devoted to them, the less morally unimpeachable they start seeming.

This brings up the interesting factor of confounding variables inherent in the OP. We might look at it as a father/mother divide, but it is also an in-focus/out-of-focus character divide.

Saintly characters are pretty boring. They generally serve, if present at all, as symbols of something. You put them on a pedestal, and you leave them there. If have a character whose characterization you actually want to explore in narrative, then that character has got to have flaws, or quickly develop them. A perfect character can only have negative character growth.

The numbers are small enough that the father/mother divide could be pure random chance. The same way that sometimes you can get 5 consecutive heads when you flip a coin 5 times.

It is also possible that since the Giant is a man, and since writers write what they know, a male author may find it easier to write a nuanced father figure than a mother figure, and if at the time he was making these characters he had not really conceptualized a larger plot yet, they might all end up fathers just from this predilection.

[BaronOfHell]

I wouldn't call Celia "morally unimpeachable." She's pacifistic to the point where she's willing to put innocent people in mortal danger rather than engage in self-defense. "My code of conduct is more important than your well-being" is the kind of thing that gets the Lawful Neutral afterlife looking in your direction (metaphorically, I know she doesn't get an afterlife). Sara (and Mama Elan, and Mrs. Starshine), though, yeah.

The problem is, if I understood Celia correct, to her everyone is "innocent" in the sense that they shouldn't to be killed. From that perspective it makes sense to me, that she can't chose either party.

Edit: There's also rather important stuff such as no afterlife for her (meaning she was the one in the most danger).

[Amphiox]

good guy, but bad father.

One doesn't even have to go so far as "bad" father. "Imperfect" father will do.

The parent-child relationship is such that every mistake the parent makes will have some impact on the child. But just because he or she makes those mistakes doesn't mean on the whole that he or she was a "bad" parent.

Consider the man that Roy turned out to be. It would not be realistic to think that ALL his good traits are solely the result of his mother, and Eugene had nothing at all to do with that, particularly since Sara died somewhat early, and at least SOME of Roy's formative years were spent with only Eugene parenting for him.

Or Haley. Her mother died when she was a child. Even though she's the most messed up of the Order, she still turned out to be a pretty good character. Ian deserves at least some of the credit for that.

The only major parental figure who's clearly and indisputably more bad than good really is Tarquin.

[The Giant]

Please do not post to threads where the last post is more than six weeks old.