OOTS #816 - The Discussion Thread

[MesiDoomstalker]

The full set doesn't exist yet. That still requires looking into the future.

But he could understand Gibberish Haley because he "looked in the future and read" the book with all the translations (which didn't exist entirly yet at that point).

[SpaceBadger]

Maybe the Oracle is Rich?

Well, sure he is. He gets a bag of gold for every prophecy that he makes, and seems to have pretty low overhead (paying off those clerics for the occasional scheduled rez...). High income, low expenses, isn't that the standard path to becoming Rich?

[Mutant Sheep]

The girl is only 14 or 15 years old.

Time travel. Your logic is now diamonds.


The Riddler mystic guy is awesome.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Well, sure he is. He gets a bag of gold for every prophecy that he makes, and seems to have pretty low overhead (paying off those clerics for the occasional scheduled rez...). High income, low expenses, isn't that the standard path to becoming Rich?

Not that I wasn't going to essentially say this myself, but seeing as you seem to be questioning, and I'm a bit sleepy at the moment, I'm going to make a possibly erroneous deduction that you didn't get the total reference.

I believe the comment is to say the Oracle is Rich 'Giant in the Playground' Burlew (You know, the author). However, since your statement ninja'd my joke, I am relegated to simply disproving the theory. If the Oracle (for whom I am known to call a charlatan and liar... frequently) were Rich Burlew, then the Oracle would not need Tiamet, would not have needed to look into the future to read the future TPB to understand Haley's ciphered word bubbles, and would not die nor lose levels (cause Rich could simply make him immune to harm and gain a level everytime someone or something tries to kill him... he makes the rules of the world). In addition, since I do not think Rich is a liar nor a charlatan (his creations are quite visible and not fakes), I know he is not the Oracle (who is a liar and a charlatan).

Characters can see other panels and such when the Rule of Drama or Rule of Funny deem it so, or Rich just feels like it, and when they can not it can easily be a failure on their detect out of panel events checks.

As for the arguments about the Draketooth kidnapping. Actually, when a father leaves a wife and takes the child without a court order giving the father sole custody, especially if he takes any assets or property (besides his own clothing and a single vehicle, if they have multiple vehicles) it is automatically considered an abduction/kidnapping. As for custody, actually unless a mother is proven to be an extremely unfit parent, the father suing for custody of the child is almost always a failure, and even in cases where the mother is considered unfit, it is more likely for another female relative to gain custody (aunt, older sister, or grandmother) then it is for the father. A single father is only likely to occur in a separation where the mother allowed the father to have custody, the mother is deceased, the child is a male teenager and requests to be with their father (and even this isn't always a likely possibility, as the mother is still court ordained to be the more important to development... since most any male can provide the needed father figure influence, but only a mother can give proper maternal... yes it is a double standard, but only in Islamic Nations is this generally not the case, moms are more important for upbringing then dads), or no viable living female relatives exist. It is sad but true, a father legally taking the kid is almost always going to be an exception to the rules. So yes, Draketooth taking Penelope's daughter is evil... he took a child from its mother, that is evil (And guess what... this answers the V question... V is obviously the father figure)

[Bulldog Psion]

... I'm going to make a possibly erroneous deduction that you didn't get the total reference.

I believe the comment is to say the Oracle is Rich 'Giant in the Playground' Burlew (You know, the author).

I'd say that deduction is more like probably erroneous, but that's just a deduction of my own. The "Well, sure he is" is a dead giveaway that it's a tongue in cheek answer to the question "Is the Oracle Rich"?

[The Pilgrim]

I'd say that deduction is more like probably erroneous, but that's just a deduction of my own. The "Well, sure he is" is a dead giveaway that it's a tongue in cheek answer to the question "Is the Oracle Rich"?

Of course the Oracle is rich.


He gets paid a bundle to sit there all day with all of the answers and watch as groups of clueless rubes sumble to figure out what are the right questions to ask him to fix their pathetic little lives.

He has made himself a fortune!

[Jay R]

As for the arguments about the Draketooth kidnapping. Actually, when a father leaves a wife and takes the child without a court order giving the father sole custody, especially if he takes any assets or property (besides his own clothing and a single vehicle, if they have multiple vehicles) it is automatically considered an abduction/kidnapping.

But you don't know this happened. You only know that Orrin, daughter and money disappeared at the same time. Other possible conclusions are:
1. Somebody (Girard?) abducted both Orrin and the daughter, and stole the money.
2. Orrin saw somebody kidnapping his daughter and stealing his money, and pursued, but his rescue failed and now he is a captive as well.
I think it's important that Tarquin did not say or imply that Orrin chose to take the child and money.

So yes, Draketooth taking Penelope's daughter is evil... he took a child from its mother, that is evil

Only if he in fact did the evil deed nobody saw him do.

(And guess what... this answers the V question... V is obviously the father figure)

Not at all. Your discussion was about a father trying to take kids away from a mother. So who's trying to get the kids, Inky or V? Furthermore, V had stayed away for years, and was doing evil things upon his/her return, and therefore presumably a "an extremely unfit parent".

[Ron Miel]

But you don't know this happened. You only know that Orrin, daughter and money disappeared at the same time. Other possible conclusions are:
1. Somebody (Girard?) abducted both Orrin and the daughter, and stole the money.
2. Orrin saw somebody kidnapping his daughter and stealing his money, and pursued, but his rescue failed and now he is a captive as well.

If either of those were true, then who left the note in the baby's bed?


Technically we don't know what happened. Tarquin claims that Penelope told him that story. Maybe Penelope didn't report it accurately to Tarquin. Maybe Tarquin has changed a few details. But there's no reason to doubt it. And if we accept the story as told, the implication that Orrin stole the money is inescapable.

[TheBardOfOots13]

It can't be Haley... she is about ten years older than whoever the chick is... and the hair color is red red, not Haley red. It could be the thief who stole Durkon's diamonds, but I bet it is gonna be someone entirely new... and someone entirely unwilling to cooperate......

[hamishspence]

I believe the comment is to say the Oracle is Rich 'Giant in the Playground' Burlew (You know, the author). However, since your statement ninja'd my joke, I am relegated to simply disproving the theory. If the Oracle (for whom I am known to call a charlatan and liar... frequently) were Rich Burlew, then the Oracle would not need Tiamet, would not have needed to look into the future to read the future TPB to understand Haley's ciphered word bubbles, and would not die nor lose levels (cause Rich could simply make him immune to harm and gain a level everytime someone or something tries to kill him... he makes the rules of the world). In addition, since I do not think Rich is a liar nor a charlatan (his creations are quite visible and not fakes), I know he is not the Oracle (who is a liar and a charlatan).

You've been derailing threads with "The Oracle is a charlatan and a liar" frequently- this was my response the last time it was brought up:

From War & XPs: Round 2: The Giant's description of the prophesies:

The sequence ends with Nale's message to Roy, which kicks off the next plot arc but also serves to immediately reinforce the fact that the Oracle's prophesies are For Real. In his casual conversation, he had noted that Roy and Elan were "running late for a couple of family reunions," referring to Nale's imminent plot to capture Elan by kidnapping Roy's sister.

Don't Split The Party: Round 4:

I know a lot of fans assume that I was making fun of fan theories in strip #567, where the Oracle explains how Belkar's prophery "came true," but the fact is that those theories were only possible because I had written Roy's death in such a way as to encourage exactly those thoughts.
...
Belkar's entire prophesy was, ultimately, my send-up of misleading prophesies in fantasy fiction and how they are often explained after the fact in incredibly unsatisfying ways. In the end though, the prophesy was straightforward.

Don't Split the Party: Round 6:

The Oracle pulled the same trick on both V and the readers: replying positively to a phrase that connoted one thing, but only actually denoted a lesser thing.
...
The question then becomes, did events come to pass as the Oracle predicted? Yes. The being in question? Vaarsuvius him/herself. The four words?" I...I must succeed, spoken at the end of strip #634.

The idea that "The Oracle is a crook and a charlatan" is rather clearly countered by these statements in the books.

[Incom]

Hehe, I just got the pun in the title.

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General Knowledge... because Tarq knows stuff.

[H Birchgrove]

Are you implying that the Empress is both crazy enough and stupid enough to double-cross Tarquin and at the same time smart enough to come up with a plan that works?

I bet you if the current ruler outed their 'advisors', two new advisors would show up the next day....

Obfuscating stupidity. Not too different from a certain Chaotic Good NPC Aristocrat who lead a team of Paladins...

... which is why this won't happen.

[factotum]

The idea that "The Oracle is a crook and a charlatan" is rather clearly countered by these statements in the books.

I think Shoelessgdowar's issue is that if the Oracle is *not* a charlatan and a liar then Belkar has to die, and looking at his forum nick, one assumes he doesn't want that to happen.

[Shoelessgdowar]

I think Shoelessgdowar's issue is that if the Oracle is *not* a charlatan and a liar then Belkar has to die, and looking at his forum nick, one assumes he doesn't want that to happen.

I can neither confirm nor deny such allegations, possibly because such confirmation would diminish the credence of my arguments of the Oracle's deceptions.

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If the Oracle is infallible, then his responses would be like those of Cassandra of Greek Mythology, completely straightforward and literal, not interpretative, and he would never be killed by Belkar, the Druid in the future, or any other means as he'd know it, not need to be resurrected, and simply have the right turn of phrase or action to stop those deaths from occurring. If he can plan ahead enough to have a wand to dismiss Roy as he claimed instead of one to just dismiss any spirit entity that comes by to bug him (which he'd have started doing after the first or second time he had to deal with a nagging ghost), and was prepared enough to have a town that he made sure not to put on any map (which he could easily have done right after Belkar left with the intent that Belkar would eventually come back to kill him) and have someone to resurrect him (which he could have just sent a sending message or magic mouth spell to summon them that is triggered when he died as he could have spells to detect when someone enters the valley and simply see them through a spyglass long before they're close), then he could plan for ways to not die in the first place (which he admits is wasteful of levels and such). Until the Oracle didn't die ever, he is a charlatan, because if he weren't a charlatan, he wouldn't have died... where as a charlatan would need to die at Belkar's hand to force the prophecy to appear to be true (which the fact the Oracle was rezzed actually proves it wasn't true as it was not THE death of the Oracle, but merely A death).

And denial is merely an Egyptian River that leads in circles and gets you no where.

[Jay R]

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If the Oracle is infallible, then his responses would be like those of Cassandra of Greek Mythology, completely straightforward and literal, not interpretative, and he would never be killed by Belkar, the Druid in the future, or any other means as he'd know it, not need to be resurrected, and simply have the right turn of phrase or action to stop those deaths from occurring. If he can plan ahead enough to have a wand to dismiss Roy as he claimed instead of one to just dismiss any spirit entity that comes by to bug him (which he'd have started doing after the first or second time he had to deal with a nagging ghost), and was prepared enough to have a town that he made sure not to put on any map (which he could easily have done right after Belkar left with the intent that Belkar would eventually come back to kill him) and have someone to resurrect him (which he could have just sent a sending message or magic mouth spell to summon them that is triggered when he died as he could have spells to detect when someone enters the valley and simply see them through a spyglass long before they're close), then he could plan for ways to not die in the first place (which he admits is wasteful of levels and such). Until the Oracle didn't die ever, he is a charlatan, because if he weren't a charlatan, he wouldn't have died... where as a charlatan would need to die at Belkar's hand to force the prophecy to appear to be true (which the fact the Oracle was rezzed actually proves it wasn't true as it was not THE death of the Oracle, but merely A death).

You're making a logical assumption that doesn't fit the narrative. You're assuming that an oracle sees only a potential future which he can then change. If he can see actions in the future that are in fact the actual future, then they will happen. That's what predicting the future means. If he is able to see his own death, he can hire a cleric to show up afterwards, but can't change the actual scene he saw occur.

To put it another way, if he could change the event he saw, then he didn't see the future.

[Ron Miel]

I think the Oracle CAN avoid things he doesn't like. See how he was out when Xykon came calling.

My speculation is that he doesn't want Xykon to succeed (dude is scary) and is manipulating events to help to defeat him. Setting off Beklkar's mark, thus causing Belkar's fake/real character growth shall be a key part of Xykon's defeat. The Oracle has foreseen this, and allowed himself to be killed to achieve it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think the Oracle CAN avoid things he doesn't like. See how he was out when Xykon came calling.

My speculation is that he doesn't want Xykon to succeed (dude is scary) and is manipulating events to help to defeat him. Setting off Beklkar's mark, thus causing Belkar's fake/real character growth shall be a key part of Xykon's defeat. The Oracle has foreseen this, and allowed himself to be killed to achieve it.

This. Also, the Oracle may have viewed scenes where he was 'prepared' exactly as we see them. Lets take Ghost Roy's visit for example. He may have seen the scene exactly as we saw it, Wand of Dismissal and all. So he went and bought the Wand. I know this creates circular logic, that he only bought the wand because he saw his future self use it. But the event he saw still happened exactly as he saw it. Without him seeing the scene, he wouldn't of bought the wand and it wouldn't happen like that. When your talking about future sight, you get circular logic. Just because he seems prepared doesn't mean he can change the future. It only means he can see the future, in brief windows, and can take steps to make sure those events happen. Then the prediction is true.

[factotum]

I think the Oracle CAN avoid things he doesn't like. See how he was out when Xykon came calling.

Again, he might have foreseen Xykon walking up to the door with the "gone fishin'" message on it and took steps to ensure that future came about. In fact, I pity the Oracle, in a way--he knows exactly how his life will play out; the poor saps who come to ask only get answers to their specific questions, but the Oracle already knows the answers to any questions he might ask himself!

The simple fact is, I don't see how anyone can say the Oracle is a charlatan and a liar when his prophecies have so far come up 100% accurate, even the ones he's let slip while not in a trance (the "you're running late for a pair of family reunions" to Elan and Roy, for example)!

[Shoelessgdowar]

This. Also, the Oracle may have viewed scenes where he was 'prepared' exactly as we see them. Lets take Ghost Roy's visit for example. He may have seen the scene exactly as we saw it, Wand of Dismissal and all. So he went and bought the Wand. I know this creates circular logic, that he only bought the wand because he saw his future self use it. But the event he saw still happened exactly as he saw it. Without him seeing the scene, he wouldn't of bought the wand and it wouldn't happen like that. When your talking about future sight, you get circular logic. Just because he seems prepared doesn't mean he can change the future. It only means he can see the future, in brief windows, and can take steps to make sure those events happen. Then the prediction is true.

1) Oracle thought Roy would not remember, that means he can't see the absolute future. He is the guy who does something, it doesn't go as planned, but he says "I meant to do that" as if he always planned it that way. The fact that Roy can bug him and he doesn't go around letting people know he can see and hear the dead means the Oracle has seen and heard dead people before and been pestered by them. The wand is an obvious precaution against any such intruders who can also obviously not be hindered by the tests, nor pay, but unless he complies with them they can bug him endlessly save for the fact he has gotten the wand to make sure he doesn't have to deal with them longer then he is willing to humor their presence. It is unlikely that any spirit/ghost is going to actually wait out the banishment period and return afterwards, and if they do he can just use another charge. Depending on the caster level that banishment could be who knows how long (minimum 24 hours), and they could still take some sort of damage/pain if they try to return before the banishment period is up, so even if someone were stubborn enough to try to return, do you think trying after 2 or 3 painful failed attempts? It is easier to lie and say, "Funny how I have a wand specifically for this" which incidentally he wouldn't have said unless he had it for all such entities and not Roy specifically because if he had it for Roy specifically he'd have turned and used it as soon as the Lizardfolk were gone, not wasting his time by talking to Roy and trying to convince Roy to depart on his own. The issue is that every theory that proves the Oracle is right for one prophecy also requires circumstances that can not function for some other prophecy to be right. The only theory that works is if the correctness is either coincidental/circumstantial/post prophecy spin doctoring or forced self-fulfilling prophecies to make himself seem correct when he can't spin them.
2) Oracle tried to backpedal and avoid getting killed by Belkar by claiming Belkar had caused THE death of Miko, Windstrider, and Roy. If he knew he couldn't change the future then he would not have wasted time trying to spin doctor the events as he'd have known that a) the spin doctoring wouldn't work, and b) the only death was always to be his. He tried, thereby proving he thought it was possible to change any and all possible futures, which means he doesn't see an absolute future but a malleable one.
3) Oracle answered "Yes" to "THE Death" (Not "A Death". In a world where resurrection, reincarnation, and being raised from the dead are all possibilities, there is a very major difference between THE Death which is the final and absolute, not going to be undone death, and A death which is one of many.) Which Belkar did not cause THE Death of Miko, Windstrider, Roy, Vaarsuvius (the one the Oracle couldn't even make something up about) nor even the Oracle (cause the Oracle only had A Death, and even that wasn't Belkar causing it. Assisted Suicide is not causing a death, it is assisting a death by the individual... the Oracle had the option to simply say "No" or even say, "No, you'll cause a death for me, but that will just bite you in the rear, so why waste your time." and thereby the death would have been abated, if he really could see the future, but he can't cause he didn't.)

Again, he might have foreseen Xykon walking up to the door with the "gone fishin'" message on it and took steps to ensure that future came about. In fact, I pity the Oracle, in a way--he knows exactly how his life will play out; the poor saps who come to ask only get answers to their specific questions, but the Oracle already knows the answers to any questions he might ask himself!

The simple fact is, I don't see how anyone can say the Oracle is a charlatan and a liar when his prophecies have so far come up 100% accurate, even the ones he's let slip while not in a trance (the "you're running late for a pair of family reunions" to Elan and Roy, for example)!

Sorry, that fails. Because if he can see the answer to any of his own questions, he can see the answer to these question: "How, no matter what, do I make it so I don't get harmed, die, nor lose a level, while fulfilling my duties, and as I ask, since I can limit the possible answers, I restrict it to all the ways to, and eliminate the answer of there is no way?" "How, no matter what, do I change the future, and as I ask, since I can limit the possible answers, I restrict it to all the ways to, and eliminate the answer of there is no way?"
As seen with Roy, by him including the restrictions, he would be forced to get an answers that would work, which thereby would mean he would have seen he could ask the questions that way, so he would have, which means he would not be harmed and could change the future, because he would know the ways, and therefore would use those ways, because he'd know he could. But since he didn't, he couldn't, therefore he can't see the answers to any/all the questions, he just gets the most likely possibility. From what we've seen, Roy and Durkon are the rare repeat customers, and if they can only remember the part he does in the 'trance' then they'd come, get new prophecies, get spin doctoring that leaves them with this underlying sense that the Oracle proved the wrong prophecies right, and leave to spread the fact that the Oracle predicts accurate futures.
Side note: if the Oracle could see the future, then Durkon and Roy wouldn't have been able to get extra prophecies out of him, because he'd have seen it coming and asked how he could stop them from getting extra.

Now, we get to the 100% issue. 100% implies all his prophecies have been already proven true, even the ones that haven't happened yet. Sorry, until they have happened, they can't be proven true, which means they are at this time false, and if the Oracle can spin doctor to make a prophecy true, anyone else can spin doctor to make them false. So we come back to the erroneous prophecies: Ginko Bilboa (False), Yes (False, False, False, False, False... BTW That means this Prophecy counts as False 5 times, which means it can 0 out 4 other prophecies... major issue with multiple part questions, either you get it 100% correct, or you at best get only a partial success which can lead to more failure then success), In his Throne room (False. I'll be polite enough to explain this. Dorukan designed the dungeon, he ordained that the Gate Room, the only way for that to have become Xykon's throne room is for the room to have the Gate removed first, then the Throne put in. Or to put it crudely, you can take a dump in the kitchen, it don't make it a bathroom.), Gift Horse (False. Mixing metaphors and screwing up adages is not only wrong, it makes the response wrong. A gift horse is not a trojan horse. In fact, proof is that the Trojans should have not accepted the Trojan Horse, while one should accept a Gift Horse. Meanwhile the Trojan Horse did spawn a different adage 'Beware Greeks bearing Gifts' ^See definitions below), Posthumously (The word means after you're dead. He isn't dead, so until he is this has to be... FALSE!!!!), 4 words to right person... yadayadayada (The only thing that proves this True is errata... errata is given when something was meant to be a way, but was done incorrectly and has to be retroactively corrected... so True with an asterisks... wow 1 correct, with a Giant assist), For you at least (No happy ending for even Elan so far, and possibly at this rate never, he lost his unrequited love interest who he was turning to the side of good, he learns his stepmother is dead, his future father-in-law hates him, his father is evil, his brother is alive, his father caused many deaths in his name... I mean literally cause deaths in his name, 300 foot tall name made from people being burned to death, so False), You will Forget anyway (False)...
Seems his score is: True 1*, False Infinity-1*

That is Infinity-1* % wrong, not 100% correct



^Definitions
gift horse - a gift (usually of inferior quality) that should be accepted uncritically
trojan horse - a trap intended to undermine an enemy. A subversive group, individual, or device placed within enemy ranks.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I see Shoeless will not listen and stay gun-ho to his theory so I'm done arguing.

[Kish]

The simple fact is, I don't see how anyone can say the Oracle is a charlatan and a liar when his prophecies have so far come up 100% accurate, even the ones he's let slip while not in a trance (the "you're running late for a pair of family reunions" to Elan and Roy, for example)!

Not finding a way the Oracle can be wrong means acknowledging that Belkar is a walking dead halfling.

For some people, apparently, that's much worse than ignoring large parts of the comic.

[Palthera]

One thing I don't understand (aside from quite a lot of disagreeing with you) is why you're going on about a trojan horse and a gift horse? Do you know WHY you don't look a gift horse in the mouth, because you will see something you don't like. A gift horse is implied to be old, you don't look it in the mouth cause then you will see that it's old. If you don't look past the surface of Nale pretending to be Elan, you accept the invitation that ultimately leads to voice coming back.

Plus, I got the V thing without any errata or explanation and I'm not sure why anyone needed it. It was done superbly well.

[AutomatedTeller]

1) Oracle thought Roy would not remember, that means he can't see the absolute future. He is the guy who does something, it doesn't go as planned, but he says "I meant to do that" as if he always planned it that way. The fact that Roy can bug him and he doesn't go around letting people know he can see and hear the dead means the Oracle has seen and heard dead people before and been pestered by them. The wand is an obvious precaution against any such intruders who can also obviously not be hindered by the tests, nor pay, but unless he complies with them they can bug him endlessly save for the fact he has gotten the wand to make sure he doesn't have to deal with them longer then he is willing to humor their presence. It is unlikely that any spirit/ghost is going to actually wait out the banishment period and return afterwards, and if they do he can just use another charge. Depending on the caster level that banishment could be who knows how long (minimum 24 hours), and they could still take some sort of damage/pain if they try to return before the banishment period is up, so even if someone were stubborn enough to try to return, do you think trying after 2 or 3 painful failed attempts? It is easier to lie and say, "Funny how I have a wand specifically for this" which incidentally he wouldn't have said unless he had it for all such entities and not Roy specifically because if he had it for Roy specifically he'd have turned and used it as soon as the Lizardfolk were gone, not wasting his time by talking to Roy and trying to convince Roy to depart on his own. The issue is that every theory that proves the Oracle is right for one prophecy also requires circumstances that can not function for some other prophecy to be right. The only theory that works is if the correctness is either coincidental/circumstantial/post prophecy spin doctoring or forced self-fulfilling prophecies to make himself seem correct when he can't spin them.
2) Oracle tried to backpedal and avoid getting killed by Belkar by claiming Belkar had caused THE death of Miko, Windstrider, and Roy. If he knew he couldn't change the future then he would not have wasted time trying to spin doctor the events as he'd have known that a) the spin doctoring wouldn't work, and b) the only death was always to be his. He tried, thereby proving he thought it was possible to change any and all possible futures, which means he doesn't see an absolute future but a malleable one.
3) Oracle answered "Yes" to "THE Death" (Not "A Death". In a world where resurrection, reincarnation, and being raised from the dead are all possibilities, there is a very major difference between THE Death which is the final and absolute, not going to be undone death, and A death which is one of many.) Which Belkar did not cause THE Death of Miko, Windstrider, Roy, Vaarsuvius (the one the Oracle couldn't even make something up about) nor even the Oracle (cause the Oracle only had A Death, and even that wasn't Belkar causing it. Assisted Suicide is not causing a death, it is assisting a death by the individual... the Oracle had the option to simply say "No" or even say, "No, you'll cause a death for me, but that will just bite you in the rear, so why waste your time." and thereby the death would have been abated, if he really could see the future, but he can't cause he didn't.)




Sorry, that fails. Because if he can see the answer to any of his own questions, he can see the answer to these question: "How, no matter what, do I make it so I don't get harmed, die, nor lose a level, while fulfilling my duties, and as I ask, since I can limit the possible answers, I restrict it to all the ways to, and eliminate the answer of there is no way?" "How, no matter what, do I change the future, and as I ask, since I can limit the possible answers, I restrict it to all the ways to, and eliminate the answer of there is no way?"
As seen with Roy, by him including the restrictions, he would be forced to get an answers that would work, which thereby would mean he would have seen he could ask the questions that way, so he would have, which means he would not be harmed and could change the future, because he would know the ways, and therefore would use those ways, because he'd know he could. But since he didn't, he couldn't, therefore he can't see the answers to any/all the questions, he just gets the most likely possibility. From what we've seen, Roy and Durkon are the rare repeat customers, and if they can only remember the part he does in the 'trance' then they'd come, get new prophecies, get spin doctoring that leaves them with this underlying sense that the Oracle proved the wrong prophecies right, and leave to spread the fact that the Oracle predicts accurate futures.
Side note: if the Oracle could see the future, then Durkon and Roy wouldn't have been able to get extra prophecies out of him, because he'd have seen it coming and asked how he could stop them from getting extra.

Now, we get to the 100% issue. 100% implies all his prophecies have been already proven true, even the ones that haven't happened yet. Sorry, until they have happened, they can't be proven true, which means they are at this time false, and if the Oracle can spin doctor to make a prophecy true, anyone else can spin doctor to make them false. So we come back to the erroneous prophecies: Ginko Bilboa (False), Yes (False, False, False, False, False... BTW That means this Prophecy counts as False 5 times, which means it can 0 out 4 other prophecies... major issue with multiple part questions, either you get it 100% correct, or you at best get only a partial success which can lead to more failure then success), In his Throne room (False. I'll be polite enough to explain this. Dorukan designed the dungeon, he ordained that the Gate Room, the only way for that to have become Xykon's throne room is for the room to have the Gate removed first, then the Throne put in. Or to put it crudely, you can take a dump in the kitchen, it don't make it a bathroom.), Gift Horse (False. Mixing metaphors and screwing up adages is not only wrong, it makes the response wrong. A gift horse is not a trojan horse. In fact, proof is that the Trojans should have not accepted the Trojan Horse, while one should accept a Gift Horse. Meanwhile the Trojan Horse did spawn a different adage 'Beware Greeks bearing Gifts' ^See definitions below), Posthumously (The word means after you're dead. He isn't dead, so until he is this has to be... FALSE!!!!), 4 words to right person... yadayadayada (The only thing that proves this True is errata... errata is given when something was meant to be a way, but was done incorrectly and has to be retroactively corrected... so True with an asterisks... wow 1 correct, with a Giant assist), For you at least (No happy ending for even Elan so far, and possibly at this rate never, he lost his unrequited love interest who he was turning to the side of good, he learns his stepmother is dead, his future father-in-law hates him, his father is evil, his brother is alive, his father caused many deaths in his name... I mean literally cause deaths in his name, 300 foot tall name made from people being burned to death, so False), You will Forget anyway (False)...
Seems his score is: True 1*, False Infinity-1*

That is Infinity-1* % wrong, not 100% correct



^Definitions
gift horse - a gift (usually of inferior quality) that should be accepted uncritically
trojan horse - a trap intended to undermine an enemy. A subversive group, individual, or device placed within enemy ranks.

Bill Clinton wants to discuss the fine points of the definition of the word "is" with you.

[Boogastreehouse]

1) Oracle thought Roy would not remember, that means he can't see the absolute future.

Not getting into the whole debate, but I would like to point out that it is Roy's assumption that the Oracle made a mistake.

It is possible that the Oracle wanted Roy to remember everything, but made it look like an accident, so Roy wouldn't suspect the Oracle of manipulating events. This actually seems a little far-fetched to me, but if it turned out to be the case, I could swallow it.

My take on it is that everything the Oracle sees and relates is true and accurate, but I suspect that as a mortal being with a mortal mental capacity the Oracle doesn't always catch everything. He can see anything that he knows to look for, and he sees a lot of incidental stuff, but he is still capable of missing something.

[brionl]

One thing I don't understand (aside from quite a lot of disagreeing with you) is why you're going on about a trojan horse and a gift horse? Do you know WHY you don't look a gift horse in the mouth, because you will see something you don't like. A gift horse is implied to be old, you don't look it in the mouth cause then you will see that it's old. If you don't look past the surface of Nale pretending to be Elan, you accept the invitation that ultimately leads to voice coming back.

"Beware of Greeks bearing Gift Horses."

But seriously, don't bother arguing with somebody so out of touch with reality.

Plus, I got the V thing without any errata or explanation and I'm not sure why anyone needed it. It was done superbly well.

I'd say I was amazed that there was anybody that didn't get it, but you know, the Internet. No matter how low you set the bar, somebody will fail to clear it.

[rewinn]

My take on it is that everything the Oracle sees and relates is true and accurate, but I suspect that as a mortal being with a mortal mental capacity the Oracle doesn't always catch everything. He can see anything that he knows to look for, and he sees a lot of incidental stuff, but he is still capable of missing something.

Also: the Oracle may be SMART ENOUGH to understand the Schodinger's Cat problem here. As long as the Oracle doesn't look at something, the future is uncertain and the Oracle can therefore act to avoid something bad. But if the Oracle goes looking for something bad to happen, his viewing it means it cannot be avoided.

For example, if the Oracle had asked, "Will Xykon meet me?", then the answer might be "Yes" and the Oracle would then be screwed. Therefore the Oracle must never ask that sort of question!

Instead, if Oracle asks, "When Xykon coming to my place?", he can use the answer to be out of town then. In some sense, he's changing the future, just not any future that he had foreseen, so it doesn't affect his Oracleness.

[Raddish]

If it is assumed he cannot change the future and he knows that he cannot change the future then there is no point in him looking into his own future for anything specific like the questions Shoeless expects him to have asked.

I also don't get how you can keep equating gift horse with trojan horse. The meaning of the two could not be much more disimilar.

[Shoelessgdowar]

If it is assumed he cannot change the future and he knows that he cannot change the future then there is no point in him looking into his own future for anything specific like the questions Shoeless expects him to have asked.

I also don't get how you can keep equating gift horse with trojan horse. The meaning of the two could not be much more disimilar.

Because the Oracle's prophecy calls for a Gift Horse, meanwhile Nale was a Trojan Horse. You just said my exact point. The terms are so dissimilar that the prophecy is a false one.

The Oracle made a point with Roy's gate question that exact wording affects the answer, and therefore intent doesn't matter, only the wording. If that is the case then Belkar's wording does allow for the multiple choice to be anyone on the list, but it also forces that the Death he causes must be final and total, not just temporary. Roy and the Oracle's deaths were transient, temporary, and frankly I disagree with either being Belkar's fault. The curse only requires Belkar to cause lethal damage, his intent or how he did it were not restricted, so the Oracle lying and infuriating him to the point that Belkar would lose his temper just to create the false facade that the prophecy was true is just as suicidal as Roy taking on Xykon atop the dragon, so it was in my opinion assisted suicide, but even barring the suicide/kill perception, it still was not THE Death of the Oracle.

People dismiss me because they're no comprehending my point. This is not Schroedinger's cat, the Oracle with getting Belkar to stab him either tried to change the future (which means he knew/believed he could change it, which means he had the choice to answer the question totally in the negative in the first place) or forced the prophecy to appear to be fulfilled because he knew he'd been called on his lies and the only way to keep up the false pretense of accuracy was to make Belkar, Celia, and Haley temporaraly believe the prophecy had been fulfilled (which is dumb, because as we saw, they forgot that Belkar had stabbed the Oracle as soon as they left the valley, which means Belkar still knows the prophecy was never fulfilled). His actions speak louder then his words.

Denial works both ways. Denial of the facts that proves the Oracle is a liar and a Charlatan doesn't make your side right, and avoiding the subject doesn't either.

As for V's prophecy, actually everyone says they saw it, the problem I have is this is like the people who saw Massive Gore in the Original Texas Chainsaw Massacre (Sorry, watched the recording of Chiller Network's "Future of Horror" special earlier today, so this analogy sticks out in my mind). You see it as correct because it partially fits and you expect to see it, instead of looking at it and seeing, "Oh it only loosely matches up when you force the pegs into the wrong holes"

So let's look at the question and the answer:

Q: How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?

A: By Saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.

Issue 1) Complete and total ultimate are all three major adjectives that leave no room for anything less, and less is exactly what V received (If it was complete and total ultimate arcane power the second he got it he would have it all, no one else would have it, so whammo the story would be over, cause Xykon's power is arcane, no arcane power means no Xykon).
Issue 2) The event only partly fits the answer

2a. Say the right four words: I is a single word, stuttered or repeated, it is separate from the other three in how it is depicted, so in truth the event was the right three words
2b. to the right person: Any psychologist or psychiatrist as well as most sane adults, especially parents, will tell you talking to yourself is talking to no one, so he didn't say the words to anyone.
2c. Right time: Okay this one is subjective, but since he really didn't receive the COMPLETE and TOTAL ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER, it wasn't really the right time... I accept that it was the right time to say those 3 words to nobody to get a lot of power, but let's move on as this as I said is more that it was only not the right time because of other factors.
2d. The big one ALL THE WRONG REASONS: wait? since when is saving your family, aiding your party, and trying to save the world all the wrong reasons? I'm not saying some of V's reasons weren't wrong, but neither were all of the not right. The Prophecy left no room for a single right reason, even one, let alone a few, is sufficient to counter the term ALL, all is an absolute, it is just like COMPLETE and TOTAL. V spoke in absolutes, the Oracle makes a point that the wording is more important then the intent, but V's wording matched his intent, and the Oracle used an absolute in response, and that means that those absolutes are absolute, no room for even minor or slightly less then absolute. Sure, vengeance, showing off, being a loner, outdoing others, and sticking it in other people's craws all could be considered wrong reasons, but they weren't all his reasons, and that means the prophecy was inaccurate.

And if each prophecy requires you to tilt it and twist it to make it fit the actual events, then that means they're no accurate.

I also have yet to see anyone answer: Ginko Bilboa... I say that Prophecy was proven totally wrong, and the comics have proven it with no proof otherwise.

This is addressed to others, not Raddish specificially
Before you call someone for falling below the line, make sure you're not standing on your head. Just because you think your world is the right one, doesn't mean you're not the guy yelling at Columbus that the World is Flat.

[Whiffet]

On the one hand, I don't want Belkar to die. He's been slowly turning his fake character development into real character development, and he's being a real team player. He's still funny, and he's also useful for the Order.

On the other hand, I want him to hurry up and die already. Maybe that would cut down slightly on the discussion about the Oracle and whether we can trust that particular prophecy. Maybe.

Could it maybe be kept out of this thread, please? I'm really sick of seeing really long messages about how the Oracle apparently can't see anything in the future. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Please?

So. That comic. I don't think anyone mentioned Haley saying "Ten gold says that the 'new friend' was Sabine in disguise." Anyone else smile every time bets for ten gold show up in the comic?

[AutomatedTeller]

I have never noticed facts getting in the way of an internet discussion.

I'm pretty sure that people are still shipping Harry and Hermione, prove that Terry Goodkind is really Ayn Rand's grandson, and trying to make sense of the end of Blazing Saddles.

It's all in good fun, of course.