Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!

[Bobikus]

One thing that bugs me about Japanese animation is fanservice.

It shows how little respect the authors have for me as a viewer if they try to add fanservice into a serious work.

Check out Legend of the Galactic Heroes sometime then if you haven't. It's a really serious and intelligently written serious, and doesn't have any blatant fanservice or rely on any wacky anime cliches or anything.

[TheLaughingMan]

So where does Halo Legends fall on the whole Cartoon vs. Anime debate?

[Johnny Blade]

Okay, so this is kind of belated, but I don't have a clue what you guys are talking about right now, so:

This guy?

Spoiler

Show

No, I only found about about that one later. Basically, I was playing around with some sort of free vector drawing program, I don't even remember which one it was anymore, and as the first thing to do beyond the most basic shapes I chose some kind of banana superhero. It didn't look horrible, so I went with it as my avatar.
Fast forward three years - I'm on my second Greg avatar and Toast just decides that the most appropriate thing to replace Greg with is a talking banana.

It's eerie.

I would rather be completely ignorant about all details of his personal life. But then he had to go and post that photo in the comics news feed, and now my mind recalls Alyssa's expression every time I see the words "Mookie" and "wedding" in the same sentence.

This is why I kind of want to see more photos. It was just one photo he posted, so no point reading too much into it, but his wife really looked like she was just about annoyed enough to beat Mookie up with that lollipop bouquet of hers, and now I find myself hoping that the man is simply as bad at choosing photos as he is at making them.

[engineer-errant]

Check out Legend of the Galactic Heroes sometime then if you haven't. It's a really serious and intelligently written serious, and doesn't have any blatant fanservice or rely on any wacky anime cliches or anything.

I liked LoGH, but it did have a lot of wacky premises that you had to accept.

• The "Space German Empire".
• The galaxy being conveniently divided in two with only two chokepoints.
• The fact that they don't seem to have the high technology of metal detectors.
• The zephyr particles making ax combat the main fighting style for the space marines.
• The planetary populations given are incredibly low considering the sizes of the fleets they need to support.

I could go on.

[Welf]

Why friggin thank you

Im sorry but the parallels are just to big to pass off as coincidence!

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....a%20poster.jpg

But eh, I love the series. Darn it I want another sci fi series! Doctor who isn't doing it for me. Especialy recently.

It could be still coincidence. There are so many, often contradictory, antisemitic prejudices that it's very hard to not list a few when making a evil race. Basically, non-brutes + money + anything will fit some established stereotype. The Nazi's blamed them for both capitalism and communism, being poor and being rich, being too smart and being too dumb. The common ground was the accusation that they were actively out to destroy the Germans with a world spanning conspiracy. And those two attributes weren't assigned to the Ferengi; neither were they out to destroy the Federation or were leading some conspiracy.

[engineer-errant]

Star Trek and the Star Wars prequels are the poster children for why you shouldn't have near-human aliens.

It's impossible to do without referencing some human racial stereotype.

[rocketpony]

Star Trek and the Star Wars prequels are the poster children for why you shouldn't have near-human aliens.

It's impossible to do without referencing some human racial stereotype.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh if we can't do anything even vaguely human without falling into a stereotype, we're in a lot of trouble. These shows presumably used humans who weren't horrible caricatures of a group, so why can't we have aliens who also aren't horrible caricatures as well?
I guess the key to humans not being horrible caricatures is that humans don't really have as much of the one-world-culture thing going on - you see humans who are all about the money and cash, but then humans who just love smiting evil and stuff, and on the whole it's harder to make statements like "Humans are meant to represent GROUP X" because there's a spread of characters who embody different traits and anti-traits of that group. As opposed to if you have a group of aliens who just all really love war and hate voting, then people start saying things like "Oh hey look that one has a sickle, and that one calls the other guy 'Steel Man,' clearly these guys are meant to be Russians," and then angry letters written to the TV station.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I liked LoGH, but it did have a lot of wacky premises that you had to accept.

• The "Space German Empire".
• The galaxy being conveniently divided in two with only two chokepoints.
• The fact that they don't seem to have the high technology of metal detectors.
• The zephyr particles making ax combat the main fighting style for the space marines.
• The planetary populations given are incredibly low considering the sizes of the fleets they need to support.

I could go on.

All of which are necessary departures from reality if you want to make "War and Peace IN SPACE", which is what LoGH is. Except the planetary populations but, well, sci fi writers and scale.

And personally, odds of a Space Reich existing aside, I think it's a good plot device simply for carrying through a theme of the series, which is presenting democracy and autocracy not as good and evil, respectively, but demonstrating the benefits and drawbacks of both. Sure beats the heck out of Gundam when it comes to presenting both outlooks as morally gray.

[engineer-errant]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh if we can't do anything even vaguely human without falling into a stereotype, we're in a lot of trouble. These shows presumably used humans who weren't horrible caricatures of a group, so why can't we have aliens who also aren't horrible caricatures as well?
I guess the key to humans not being horrible caricatures is that humans don't really have as much of the one-world-culture thing going on - you see humans who are all about the money and cash, but then humans who just love smiting evil and stuff, and on the whole it's harder to make statements like "Humans are meant to represent GROUP X" because there's a spread of characters who embody different traits and anti-traits of that group. As opposed to if you have a group of aliens who just all really love war and hate voting, then people start saying things like "Oh hey look that one has a sickle, and that one calls the other guy 'Steel Man,' clearly these guys are meant to be Russians," and then angry letters written to the TV station.

One world cultures are a major problem, and so is the standard response, "let's make the cultural renegade most like someone from the good human culture". To avoid stereotypes, you need to show cultural nuance and variation.

Second, almost every alien in Star Trek and several of the newly introduced aliens in the Star Wars prequels were simply humans with facial prosthetics. (In the case of Star Wars, some of it was digital instead of makeup.) This is what I was referring to when I said near-human. That is a far cry from being vaguely human.

With your Cold War Soviets example, if you referenced Cold War American propaganda to the degree where you are arming them with sickles and name one "Steel man", you shouldn't be surprised to get complaints. And if you did it without picking up on the subtext, that doesn't say good things about you.

[engineer-errant]

All of which are necessary departures from reality if you want to make "War and Peace IN SPACE", which is what LoGH is. Except the planetary populations but, well, sci fi writers and scale.

And personally, odds of a Space Reich existing aside, I think it's a good plot device simply for carrying through a theme of the series, which is presenting democracy and autocracy not as good and evil, respectively, but demonstrating the benefits and drawbacks of both. Sure beats the heck out of Gundam when it comes to presenting both outlooks as morally gray.

War and Peace in Space is a good one sentence description.

I agree that it's a lot more nuanced than most series, and well worth the investment in watching.

[TheArsenal]

Its pretty simple in my book (I try to keep my book simple):

Any new race needs balance. It can have a slant, even a slightly more then natural one (That makes them more memorable ei Klingons) but as long as there is balance the race will never be offencive.

[Traab]

Its pretty simple in my book (I try to keep my book simple):

Any new race needs balance. It can have a slant, even a slightly more then natural one (That makes them more memorable ei Klingons) but as long as there is balance the race will never be offencive.

Which is why I like the ferengi better in ds9. At least then you see more variations on how the ferengi behave. Some are just businessmen out to make a buck, others are willing to do whatever it takes to make a little more profit, and you have a range of personalities as well, some are dumb, some smart, some fairly brave, some cowards, some are vicious bastards, etc etc etc. The core is still there, the ferengi are a race of businessmen, but there are a lot of nuances added in.

[TheArsenal]

Which is why I like the ferengi better in ds9. At least then you see more variations on how the ferengi behave. Some are just businessmen out to make a buck, others are willing to do whatever it takes to make a little more profit, and you have a range of personalities as well, some are dumb, some smart, some fairly brave, some cowards, some are vicious bastards, etc etc etc. The core is still there, the ferengi are a race of businessmen, but there are a lot of nuances added in.

Exactly. Point is that if something is not a caricature- even if its based off of me I cannot get offended.

"Oh my god a race of businessmen! How AWFULL!"

[random11]

Which is why I like the ferengi better in ds9. At least then you see more variations on how the ferengi behave. Some are just businessmen out to make a buck, others are willing to do whatever it takes to make a little more profit, and you have a range of personalities as well, some are dumb, some smart, some fairly brave, some cowards, some are vicious bastards, etc etc etc. The core is still there, the ferengi are a race of businessmen, but there are a lot of nuances added in.

Are they a race of businessman, or is it that the humans only see that aspect of their culture?

How would an alien race see us if all the humans he saw was space marines?
What if the same alien race would see only diplomats? Or traders? Rebels? Pirates?

Long time ago, as part of a world building idea I had, I took all the cliches about races (dwarfs as gold hoarders with axes and ale, elves as nature loving clans with long bows etc.), and found reasons why the stereotypes exist in the human world, when at the same time being totally wrong.

[Trazoi]

Update: my wife finished up through "The War in Hell" yesterday and still likes the comic. She seems to have mentally blocked the unfortunate implications in the rape plot, though she's at least not a fan of Stonewater. She's also been vocal in our discussion of it that Siegfried deserved to go to hell, being a violent, prideful jackass. I tried to point out that this ignored all character development starting with Visions of Doom, but on the other hand arguing with the love of one's life over a ****ing webcomic is hard.

Yeah, the problems with Siggy going to hell wasn't that he wasn't a nasty guy, it was that he was undergoing growth and was the most interesting character. There's also the creeping realisation that almost everyone in the comic should be going to hell by the standards of Siggy shown at the time of his death, which might be why Mookie retconned in the complete monster aspect after the fact.

Anyway, this is reinforcing a guess I had that people who get into Dominic Deegan like it when they're reading the archives and only notice the problems when they're reading a day at a time and have time for reflection. Let's see if this theory holds up when she gets to Snowsong.

A lot of the problems with the early strips need a minute to sink in, so you gloss over them when you're flicking through the archives. The two earlier arcs where the problems are so blatant and persistent that they might sift through are the Erossus Ecstasy and Evil one and Battle for Barthis, but there's enough going on that you can get away with only minor poisoning if you're reading fast enough.

My theory is that evenually there's enough comic in your system that you reach a tipping point and all the flaws are revealed. There's probably going to be a point in the archive where something triggers the change. From this point Snowsong is the first likely candidate, but there's at least one in every arc. The vacation arc + Maltak combo is almost cetainly lethal.

If your wife makes it through the archives and is a die-hard fan, then it's probably that the archive effect is stronger than we thought. If she's not just still a die-hard fan but is sad that your wedding wasn't metal enough, I'd seek counselling.

[TheArsenal]

Long time ago, as part of a world building idea I had, I took all the cliches about races (dwarfs as gold hoarders with axes and ale, elves as nature loving clans with long bows etc.), and found reasons why the stereotypes exist in the human world, when at the same time being totally wrong.

Incredibly interesting and cool Idea. You should be proud!

[Traab]

Are they a race of businessman, or is it that the humans only see that aspect of their culture?

How would an alien race see us if all the humans he saw was space marines?
What if the same alien race would see only diplomats? Or traders? Rebels? Pirates?

Long time ago, as part of a world building idea I had, I took all the cliches about races (dwarfs as gold hoarders with axes and ale, elves as nature loving clans with long bows etc.), and found reasons why the stereotypes exist in the human world, when at the same time being totally wrong.

Well, considering every time we encounter a ferengi he is running a business, running a scam, or running a business while scamming on the side, they make frequent mention of the rules of acquisition like its their 10 commandments, and virtually every arc that involves ferengi involves trying to make a profit, id say that their lives specifically revolve around being merchants of various types. Well, the men do, apparently 99% of the women are ornamental iirc. Every time we learn a little bit more about their culture via talking heads, (with big ears) it revolves around various profitable scenarios. Honestly, I picture the ferengi culture as a heck of alot like the goblins in world of warcraft starting area. Minus the giant dragon destroying their home.

*EDIT* As for the stereotypes, its pretty simple to come up with a few reasons. For example, most elves/dwarves are fairly insular. The only contact the dwarves have with humans is to buy and sell ore, ingots, crafted goods, etc, so therefore all dwarves must be living in mountains, mining all day and have an intrinsic gift for working in a smithy. Really thats only seen that way because thats the only set of dwarves willing to talk to humans at all.

Elves, well, humans only get to meet their border outposts, mainly populated by the border guards who wear camouflage gear to blend in and use bows because they are highly effective. As for nature loving, its kinda hard to blend in if you leave piles of trash everywhere you setup camp while guarding your borders. Therefore they take good care of their surrounding territory. Its just good sense, not some intrinsic connection to nature.

Honestly, the hardest part imo would be to avoid the one trait mindset while creating an entire race, while also avoiding turning them into short humans, or pointy eared humans. One of the things I liked about Dennis Mckiernans elves was how he approached their immortality. He had them talk about how they never stick with a single trade for too long, (by elven terms) as spending 6000 years as a scout would get dull. You can only learn so much before you have perfected the skills needed and then it gets dull. Same for being a blacksmith, a scholar, a sailor, etc. They will spend a few hundred years or so learning a trade, then move on to something else.

I liked this because it addresses the main question about immortality. How the hell do these guys manage to stay doing the same thing for all eternity without going crazy? Even the rulers step down and do other things from time to time. The only downside is that makes it WAY too easy to create mary sue elves. After all, that elf is 7000 years old, he obviously has had time to learn and master a skill to solve every problem your party might have. He can use any weapon, he is a master healer, hunter, mountain climber, sailor, diplomat, merchant, etc etc etc.

[Nerd-o-rama]

If your wife makes it through the archives and is a die-hard fan, then it's probably that the archive effect is stronger than we thought. If she's not just still a die-hard fan but is sad that your wedding wasn't metal enough, I'd seek counselling.

Thankfully, we already first-danced to Metallica, and she's severely old-school when it comes to metal, so I hope that was enough.

[Turcano]

You really like rabbits, eh?

Oh come off it. You know as well as everyone else that Jessica's only a Rabbit by marriage.

[Coidzor]

Update: my wife finished up through "The War in Hell" yesterday and still likes the comic. She seems to have mentally blocked the unfortunate implications in the rape plot, though she's at least not a fan of Stonewater. She's also been vocal in our discussion of it that Siegfried deserved to go to hell, being a violent, prideful jackass. I tried to point out that this ignored all character development starting with Visions of Doom, but on the other hand arguing with the love of one's life over a ****ing webcomic is hard.

Anyway, this is reinforcing a guess I had that people who get into Dominic Deegan like it when they're reading the archives and only notice the problems when they're reading a day at a time and have time for reflection. Let's see if this theory holds up when she gets to Snowsong.

Twelve gods, man. Why did you let your wife or anyone you love discover Dominic Deegan?! ...Please tell me you don't have kids. Or if you do that they're too young to use the internet or you've got some kind of blocker to keep them from ever accidentally stumbling upon it. @_@

I believe Koorly disproved the whole archive = rose-tinted glasses idea, but she was doing Literary Analysis on it at the same time she was reading it. I really want to pick up that skill, some of those rants when she wasn't sobbing with rage and recrimination (or showing the strain of being slowly driven crazy by Mookie) seemed like they were fun to put out.

[Nerd-o-rama]

It was the analysis that must have done it to poor CKG. My wife, like many people, ignores a lot of literary problems by simply skimming through without thinking about it. See also: me and Harry Potter or everyone and Twilight.

[Trazoi]

Thankfully, we already first-danced to Metallica, and she's severely old-school when it comes to metal, so I hope that was enough.

The Donovan approach, huh? Well played, Nerd-o-rama.

I believe Koorly disproved the whole archive = rose-tinted glasses idea, but she was doing Literary Analysis on it at the same time she was reading it. I really want to pick up that skill, some of those rants when she wasn't sobbing with rage and recrimination (or showing the strain of being slowly driven crazy by Mookie) seemed like they were fun to put out.

Curly forced herself to think about every update, so it must have been like swimming the English Channel if the channel was full of bile.

I reckon if I was skimming the archive sight unseen at my usual super speed I might think it was just a weirdly uneven webcomic all the way up to Oracle Hunter. The Dominic interrogation scene however would trip me up enough for He-Dom to floor me.

[Bobikus]

I tend to analyze pretty much everything I watch or read pretty heavily, so it didn't take long for the archives to start wearing down on me :(

[TheLaughingMan]

Thankfully, we already first-danced to Metallica, and she's severely old-school when it comes to metal, so I hope that was enough.

Oh glob, Facebath. Bail her out while she has time!

[Trazoi]

"Hey everyone we just got married and you weren't invited!"
Sneaky Gate
Future Link

Gawd, what is the point of any of this?

BTW is that meant to be Jacob in the last panel, or someone completely new? With this comic you can never tell.

[random11]

"Hey everyone we just got married and you weren't invited!"
Sneaky Gate
Future Link

Gawd, what is the point of any of this?

BTW is that meant to be Jacob in the last panel, or someone completely new? With this comic you can never tell.

Wow, even THIS kind of problem is solved instantly only by magic.

And no, there is no point, and there will not be one until next year.
Can we just keep talking about comics vs mangas, star trek and racism?
I don't even have material to snark about!

[mwchase]

BTW is that meant to be Jacob in the last panel, or someone completely new? With this comic you can never tell.

Cassafin? Quilt wearing heavy makeup?

I'm going to go with Jacob, but man.

Heh, remember the time that Gregory and Miranda were indistinguishable?

[AgentofOdd]

"Sneaky Gate
Future Link

Yea, them spreading the news is rather weird. Maybe it's because the actual ceremony felt less authentic than a Vegas drive through wedding.

And as for Jacob, why is he sporting a yarmulke? I also fear Mookie is gonna make him into a druid necromancer hybrid (cause life and death are like one man, and it's totally metal).

[Trazoi]

Yea, them spreading the news is rather weird. Maybe it's because the actual ceremony felt less authentic than a Vegas drive through wedding.

I don't even know what the importance of getting married is in the Deeganverse. They're already living together as a couple. Is it that important they tie up everything legally in case one of them dies or something, because that's all I see different now.

Why did they bother announcing the engagement in the paper if they decide to go with the ambush forced Greg wedding? It's nice to see what they care about Miranda's wishes. That selfish cow, wanting to be at her son's wedding.

Also note they didn't bother to contact any Travorias. Who cares about that side of the family. Of course there's only two left and one of them is already at the cathedral and if I remember the other was last seen making a plea for how the remaining Travorias should stick together, so yeah, why bother.

[random11]

BTW, it's a good thing the king s completely irrelevant by now.
Otherwise I'd point that they are using an unsecured form of communication spell, and the battle casters (remember them?) can now trace their exact location, as well as a full list of all their friends and supporters.