Minor plot holes, contradictions, and other nit-picks

[Shhalahr Windrider]

So basically Shojo just looks older than he is? I don't think he actually told Belkar or Roy his exact age, so they estimated him to be about 80 something.

Basically: Yeah.

[dancrilis]

Shojo's age has already been given in War & XPs as 72.

Thank you for this I was unaware of that piece on information.

As such if we assume that Soon's adventures only took 3 years after the death of his wife, then Shojo would have been 9 when he was learning from his father which then tracks reasonable well.

[hamishspence]

Redcloak's account in SoD has a goblin cleric discover the gate "about 35 years ago" - the Dark One sends a force led by the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle- but it's thwarted by the Order of the Scribble.

He's telling this story 30 years before Dungeon Crawling Fools.

so- 65 years before. Fits in well with the Scribble's adventures beginning 66 years before.

[CloakedDancer]

Going way back, something I always found odd was when Eugene asked Roy if it would kill Roy to Speak With Undead once in a while to let his parents know how he was doing. It made it sound like Eugene and his wife had regular or even occasional contact in the afterlife, even though it seems to be made apparent later that they never talk, and Eugene's statement seems to be speaking for both of them. For all Eugene knows Roy could be talking to his mother and ignoring his father... after all, considering their relationship when he was alive that doesn't sound like it would be all that surprising.

Anyways I guess you could file that under nit-pick. But what does it matter, really? The story continues...

[Tass]

Going way back, something I always found odd was when Eugene asked Roy if it would kill Roy to Speak With Undead once in a while to let his parents know how he was doing. It made it sound like Eugene and his wife had regular or even occasional contact in the afterlife, even though it seems to be made apparent later that they never talk, and Eugene's statement seems to be speaking for both of them. For all Eugene knows Roy could be talking to his mother and ignoring his father... after all, considering their relationship when he was alive that doesn't sound like it would be all that surprising.

Anyways I guess you could file that under nit-pick. But what does it matter, really? The story continues...

And also "your mother wanted you to be a wizard".

Yeah, pretty obviously jokes from before the characterization was so complete as it is now. So yes, plot holes, but minor nitpicky ones that I won't lose any sleep over, and wouldn't even if I were the author. I suppose one could make up contrived reasons for his words to make sense, but I am not going to bother.

[Bulldog Psion]

Going way back, something I always found odd was when Eugene asked Roy if it would kill Roy to Speak With Undead once in a while to let his parents know how he was doing. It made it sound like Eugene and his wife had regular or even occasional contact in the afterlife, even though it seems to be made apparent later that they never talk, and Eugene's statement seems to be speaking for both of them. For all Eugene knows Roy could be talking to his mother and ignoring his father... after all, considering their relationship when he was alive that doesn't sound like it would be all that surprising.

Anyways I guess you could file that under nit-pick. But what does it matter, really? The story continues...

Well, although those statements by Eugene are just flat wrong in terms of the later story, it's also true that nothing before strip 100 is entirely canonical, or so I think I've heard. At that point it was mostly a joke a day strip, and the plot and characters didn't congeal into their final form until quite a bit later.

So, although it's a minor plot hole, it's also a completely irrelevant one. Not saying you're wrong to point it out, but it's a hole in area that's more or less separate from the main plot other than those elements which Rich decided to carry over.

(See, for example, the fact that the MitD was a lot more nasty and aggressive than he is now.)

[CloakedDancer]

Well, although those statements by Eugene are just flat wrong in terms of the later story, it's also true that nothing before strip 100 is entirely canonical, or so I think I've heard. At that point it was mostly a joke a day strip, and the plot and characters didn't congeal into their final form until quite a bit later.

So, although it's a minor plot hole, it's also a completely irrelevant one. Not saying you're wrong to point it out, but it's a hole in area that's more or less separate from the main plot other than those elements which Rich decided to carry over.

(See, for example, the fact that the MitD was a lot more nasty and aggressive than he is now.)

Well Eugene ended up involved in the main plot, so I don't see how you can really call it separate. I know the history of the comic, and I understand that the early strips are before all the major plot points that came to define the strip became incorporated. I just felt like this thread had been devoid of anything that was an actual nit pick so far, so I decided to toss one in. As I said though, the story goes on and it's not a big deal. Just throwing something out there.

[dancrilis]

I have never really had any issue with Eugene calling Roy on not speaking with dead, it seems likely to me that Sara would visit Eugene occasionally.
Bring Eric down talk about old times catch up with how the quest goes in a generic sense etc.
This fits then with Eugene being willing to grant Roy's request not to visit them, as Eugene knows they will visit him.

Further on Sara wanting Roy to be a wizard, she likely did, if for no other reason then it would make Eugene happy (and would save 40,000GP a year), she was likely just was not too pushed about it though.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well Eugene ended up involved in the main plot, so I don't see how you can really call it separate. I know the history of the comic, and I understand that the early strips are before all the major plot points that came to define the strip became incorporated. I just felt like this thread had been devoid of anything that was an actual nit pick so far, so I decided to toss one in. As I said though, the story goes on and it's not a big deal. Just throwing something out there.

Well, if you're looking for nits to pick, the early strips are probably the place to do it. I might have a look around and see if I can spot any discrepancies just for fun.

[CloakedDancer]

I have never really had any issue with Eugene calling Roy on not speaking with dead, it seems likely to me that Sara would visit Eugene occasionally.
Bring Eric down talk about old times catch up with how the quest goes in a generic sense etc.
This fits then with Eugene being willing to grant Roy's request not to visit them, as Eugene knows they will visit him.

Further on Sara wanting Roy to be a wizard, she likely did, if for no other reason then it would make Eugene happy (and would save 40,000GP a year), she was likely just was not too pushed about it though.

Out of curiosity, how do you know that Roy's parents would have saved 40,000GP a year if he had become a wizard? It never says that he would've skipped college if he'd gone the wizard route. In fact, wizarding sounds like it would require even more study than being a fighter. Maybe a sorcerer could skip school, but a wizard? I just don't see it. Now I will admit that I'm not familiar with the tuition rates of all those fancy wizard schools (like the one Julia goes to) but I'm fairly certain they're not free. You could be right though. Maybe Roy had a full-ride scholarship coming his way. But I'm pretty sure nothing in the comic says for certain what the monetary difference would be.

[dancrilis]

True enough I will admit that this was an oversight on my part.

In theory I could say that I would assume that he was learning off his father (it is mentioned that he was learning cantrips before university), and that it seemed that it was a foregone conclusion that he would be accepted, but you are correct the monetary cost of this university (if any) was never specified.

As such I will retract the element of my previous post regarding: and would save 40,000GP a year.

I feel the rest still is a reasonable analysis however.

[Mutant Sheep]

Well, if Elan could theoretically take a level of Wizard by theoretically looking over V's shoulder, Roy could go to a really crappy wizard school and get tutored by Eugene, saving about 39,365 gp a year.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Well, if Elan could theoretically take a level of Wizard by theoretically looking over V's shoulder, Roy could go to a really crappy wizard school and get tutored by Eugene, saving about 39,365 gp a year.

Elan can get the level by looking over V’s shoulder because Elan would be taking his xth Character Level, where x is a number greater than one and such study can be handwaved. You’ve got to put in actual hard work on your very first class.

[Kish]

I doubt Eugene planned to cut corners on his son's wizard education.

Rather, he considers 40,000 gold a year to become a fighter wasted money, while the same amount (or a larger amount) to become a wizard would not have been wasted.

[Jay R]

And also "your mother wanted you to be a wizard".

This is not a plot hole unless you assume that Eugene actually knew what Sara wanted and always reports other people's feelings accurately. I find no evidence for either assumption.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

This is not a plot hole unless you assume that Eugene actually knew what Sara wanted and always reports other people's feelings accurately. I find no evidence for either assumption.

I were thinking about that as well, it might just be that Eugene has it wrong.

Or Roy's mother wanted him to be a wizard since she thougt he had the brains for it, but later changed her mind when she realised that Roy liked being a fighter.

[derfenrirwolv]

Or she thought her baby boy would be safer in the back of the adventuring party rather than in the monsters digestive tract...

Or better yet in town making oodles of magic items and tons of cash.

[veti]

You’ve got to put in actual hard work on your very first class.

Or, alternatively, you could cruise through a few weeks of Bard Camp.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Or, alternatively, you could cruise through a few weeks of Bard Camp.

Which, compared to retroactively looking over the party bard’s shoulder, is hard work.

[Tass]

But not compared to actually obtaining a character level.

[Lawless III]

It seems like both of Eugene's inaccurate statements can be attributed to his rather arrogant way of thinking. I find him assuming that if Roy hasn't talked to him, he hasn't talked to his mother either entirely inline with his character. The same with assuming that Roy's mother would want the same things he did for their children.

Another explanation for the former could be that Eugene was scrying on him regularly and never saw him use that spell to contact his mother.

It seems like a lot of these "plot holes" are simply cases of a character saying something untrue. Most of the time that's simply because the character does not have all the information nor the detachment from the situation that we enjoy as readers. They have time constraints, prejudices, misinformation, etc. So, they make assumptions and are quite often wrong about them. That's good character writing, not a "plot hole."

[CloakedDancer]

It seems like both of Eugene's inaccurate statements can be attributed to his rather arrogant way of thinking. I find him assuming that if Roy hasn't talked to him, he hasn't talked to his mother either entirely inline with his character. The same with assuming that Roy's mother would want the same things he did for their children.

Another explanation for the former could be that Eugene was scrying on him regularly and never saw him use that spell to contact his mother.

It seems like a lot of these "plot holes" are simply cases of a character saying something untrue. Most of the time that's simply because the character does not have all the information nor the detachment from the situation that we enjoy as readers. They have time constraints, prejudices, misinformation, etc. So, they make assumptions and are quite often wrong about them. That's good character writing, not a "plot hole."

There are always explanations one can come up with to explain away various anomalies in a story. There are also differing levels at which readers' suspension of belief become strained. Sometimes scenarios that have reasonable explanations can really shatter a reader's suspension of disbelief, simply because it is not what the reader expects or believes to be reasonable.

I believe this comic does have good character writing. It has featured many cases of characters making statements and decisions based on what they believed to be true, and it turning out that what they believed to be true was not in fact truth or the best decision. The majority of cases for me have made sense. But good character writing doesn't preclude plot holes or mistakes. Not that I personally think there are any... I just had a little nit-pick. I can understand why others might think there are though. Even when they're wrong.

[Lawless III]

There are always explanations one can come up with to explain away various anomalies in a story. There are also differing levels at which readers' suspension of belief become strained. Sometimes scenarios that have reasonable explanations can really shatter a reader's suspension of disbelief, simply because it is not what the reader expects or believes to be reasonable.

I believe this comic does have good character writing. It has featured many cases of characters making statements and decisions based on what they believed to be true, and it turning out that what they believed to be true was not in fact truth or the best decision. The majority of cases for me have made sense. But good character writing doesn't preclude plot holes or mistakes. Not that I personally think there are any... I just had a little nit-pick. I can understand why others might think there are though. Even when they're wrong.

It feels as though this is in disagreement with my post, but I can't really find anything stated directly that I don't agree with. I guess it seems like there is implication in the first paragraph that my explanations are some what of a stretch. If so then I would like to point out that Eugene's arrogance an constant scrying are very well documented. If however, I misinterpreted that (as the second paragraph rather sounds like) then feel free to disregard this.

I would also like to add that my comment about characters' misunderstanding being mistaken for plot holes was not aimed at your particular nitpick, but at a general trend I noticed. I don't even think yours is an example of it.

[Flame of Anor]

My personal nit-pick is this: why does the Order believe that Girard will still be alive? He appears to be human, and his fellow party member (and human) Soon Kim, though probably older than Girard, was "aged" back when Shojo was a kid. That's sixty-some years ago, right? Considering it had been some time (long enough for Soon's hair to turn gray, the party to build gates, and Soon to found the Sapphire Guard and build a castle) since the breakup of the Order of the Scribble, Girard must be at least ninety.

[The Wanderer]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html
Shojo was an octogenarian.

Others have already made their points, but I just wanted to say: why would you assume that Roy is right? He barely knows Shojo, so how would he know Shojo's exact age? Why would he even care about accurately guessing Shojo's age in the middle of a battle?

What characters say and think is not always right, because they're not always right. In fact, Roy being wrong because he either doesn't bother or care to learn the truth about something or because he makes logical guesses that are incorrect in part because the world is not logical is something of a running theme in the comic. (And in the case of the former, something he inherited from his dad. As is pointed out in SoD, Eugene will refuse to learn things just because he doesn't care enough about the subject to do so, and will even act like a complete moron who can't count because he continues not paying attention to said subject to the point that he won't even engage in 1st grade math.)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

My personal nit-pick is this: why does the Order believe that Girard will still be alive? He appears to be human, and his fellow party member (and human) Soon Kim, though probably older than Girard, was "aged" back when Shojo was a kid. That's sixty-some years ago, right? Considering it had been some time (long enough for Soon's hair to turn gray, the party to build gates, and Soon to found the Sapphire Guard and build a castle) since the breakup of the Order of the Scribble, Girard must be at least ninety.

It was approximately 67-years ago (66 years, as of the trial in Azure City, plus an additional year since then).

As to why could he be alive: Humans die of old age on average at 91 years old, but have a maximum life expectancy of 110. As a presumably epic character, Girard would have access to the feat Extended Lifespan, which would add another 20 years to that. This is all on top of the general tendency for fictional spellcasters to just live longer. And in any case, Dorukan, one other human Scribble member other than Girard and Soon managed to hang on until Xykon killed him only two or so years prior, so there is precedent for longetivity among Scribble members.

Of course, the reveal about Orrin Draketooth does seem to have given them the idea that Girard is no longer personally guarding the gate. They may no longer expect to meet Girard.

[Jay R]

My personal nit-pick is this: why does the Order believe that Girard will still be alive?

1. The order's ability to think through all details logically has not yet been demonstrated.

2. They will think he's alive until the plot requires them to think otherwise. This is a story.

3. When the bad guy dies off-screen, he's not really dead until you see the body.

[veti]

My personal nit-pick is this: why does the Order believe that Girard will still be alive?

I look at it this way: the Order has no information, one way or the other, as to Girard's current vitalitory status. Nor do they know anything about what he might have done after the Scribblers broke up, apart from setting up practical jokes.

If I were in the Order's position, in the absence of any other information, I would assume: (a) there's a finite chance he's still alive, and (b) if he's dead, he's probably left something behind, and humans being what they are, that 'something' will probably share quite a lot of his characteristics. So when they talk as if Girard were still alive, that doesn't mean they're assuming that's the case - it's just a sensible starting point for such plans as they can make, in the absence of any up-to-date knowledge at all.

[Flame of Anor]

3. When the bad guy dies off-screen, he's not really dead until you see the body.

...Girard is not the bad guy.

[Velarias]

I have lurked through this entire thread and i must say...

I have yet to see a single plot hole. More like people trying to pick something apart and notbeing able to so they just gnash their teeth.

Oh well...