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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Is there any news as to why it went down?
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Friend Of Mine
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    Fatigue makes me wax philosophic and/or babble. If I've posted something strange and tangential, that is probably the cause. This entry would be an example.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Apparently, it was taken down by the host because some spyware or hackers managed to worm their way in somewhere and cause the site to redirect mobile uses to...less than savory websites.

    Just to check, are the dropbox links working? More importantly, you guys can't edit the online versions, correct? The last thing I need is someone laughing as they delete everything from the revised document.
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    We can't edit them unless you've put them in a folder that is shared with us, I think. So it should be safe. Make a backup, just in case I'm talking out my posterior.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Might see if I can talk a GM into letting me use this in a game. I'm disappointed that BG/MM went down.

    Is the Draconic Class in the stuff still available, or is it gone?

    Found it, thanks!
    Last edited by NineThePuma; 2013-01-10 at 11:03 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    How much has changed since the two Codex PDFs? I notice some of the circles in the docx are missing there formulae, but the PDFs seem to be complete (even if they are no longer up to date).

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Hey DonQ, I submit to you: The (WIP) Sage, a spellshaper-meets-zelda base class.
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    How much has changed since the two Codex PDFs? I notice some of the circles in the docx are missing there formulae, but the PDFs seem to be complete (even if they are no longer up to date).
    The .docx only contains the materials that have actually been revised. If I haven't actually rewritten it yet, it's not in the .docx. Use the PDFs for such things.

    A lot of the changes have been to base classes and races, bringing things into the core rules so that, for example, elemental adepts can get their elemental incantations for free. Feats and suchlike were standardized and codified, and the rules chapter was rewritten.

    In terms of formulae, I've been removing formulae that feel clunky, don't go well with the direction spellshaping ended up taking, or create problematic rules scenarios. I don't want anything to be a straight save-or-die, for instance...which I only later realized meant that paralysis and the like had to go as well. For another example, Shocking Current needs to be revised so as to not tread on Screeching Roc's toes. Stuff like that.

    It got bogged down last semester, when I was more or less constantly working. My schedule is a bit lighter this semester, so hopefully I'll be able to focus on getting things done.


    Quote Originally Posted by sirpercival View Post
    Hey DonQ, I submit to you: The (WIP) Sage, a spellshaper-meets-zelda base class.
    Just so long as I don't have to marry a fish.
    Last edited by DonQuixote; 2013-01-19 at 07:42 PM.
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Was there any thoughts on how the anchorite can pick up level-appropriate abilities from the circles he picks up later in the game?

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    Was there any thoughts on how the anchorite can pick up level-appropriate abilities from the circles he picks up later in the game?
    This is why anchorites get two new formulae known, rather than one, at the levels at which they get new circles. This allows you to pick up a 1st-level and a formula of up to 3rd level (Prerequisite: One formula). At the next even-numbered level, you can then trade in a different formula for a formula of up to 5th level (Prerequisite: Two formulae) in addition to learning a new formula of up to 7th level (Prerequisite: Three formulae).

    At 5th level, getting a 1st-level and a 3rd-level formula already gives you a formula of the highest level that you can use. At 10th level, the level itself is even, meaning that you can already get a 5th-level formula--again, the highest level that you can use. Only 15th level has any issue, with you only being able to grab a 1st-level formula and a 3rd-level formula, but you'll be able to get up to a 7th-level formula at your next level, which is only one level below the highest level that you can use.

    While these numbers are assuming that you go all in with your new circle, there's nothing forcing you to do so. You don't actually lose access to your older formulae, so you can still use the level-appropriate abilities that you already had. You'll just have a bit of a learning curve with the new circle, which I find to be acceptable. Also bear in mind that you gain access to a new meditative aspect simply for picking up a new chosen circle, as well as the ability to take feats and meet prerequisites related to the circle.

    At no point will the anchorite have any ability that allows it to ignore "formulae known" prerequisites. If there's really a strong demand for it, I might put in something about exchanging known formulae for formulae from the new circle of the same level or lower, but that's about it. That also gets really klunky and awkward fairly quickly, but I'll poke at it if the masses demand.
    Last edited by DonQuixote; 2013-01-22 at 04:31 PM.
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    I was thinking more along the lines of a few formulae with no prerequisites. Weaker, to make up for it, but it gives people access without feeling bad for taking first level maneuvers at 10th/15th level.

    It also makes dipping spellshaping more of an option. (As stands, you've made dipping out of spellshaping a decent option, but not dipping into.)
    Last edited by chaos_redefined; 2013-01-22 at 07:44 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    I was thinking more along the lines of a few formulae with no prerequisites. Weaker, to make up for it, but it gives people access without feeling bad for taking first level maneuvers at 10th/15th level.

    It also makes dipping spellshaping more of an option. (As stands, you've made dipping out of spellshaping a decent option, but not dipping into.)
    Formula known prerequisites are here, and they're here to stay. Every 2nd- or 3rd-level formula requires that you know at least one other formula from the circle, every 4th- or 5th-level formula requires that you know at least two such formulae, every 6th- or 7th-level formula requires that you know three such formulae, every 8th-level formula requires four formulae, and every 9th-level formula requires five formulae. There will be no exceptions, and no material will allow one to ignore these prerequisites.

    As I've said, I'll toy with the idea of letting anchorites replace previously-known formulae with formulae from the new circle of the same level or lower. But they'll still need to meet any prerequisites.

    I'm not sure how dipping into spellshaping is less attractive than dipping out. Most classes give you enough formulae known at 1st level to end up with at least one formula of the highest level that you'd be able to shape.
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    I'm still boggling at the idea of an anchorite/darkened one.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Quote Originally Posted by vasharanpaladin View Post
    I'm still boggling at the idea of an anchorite/darkened one.
    Embrace the darkness. Darkness eternal!

    The darkened one revisions are going to be fun. I haven't decided exactly what I'm doing, but I know it'll be fun.


    In unrelated news, apparently The-Mage-King moved The Sentai, which can sometimes use spellshaping material. In news related to this unrelated news, I apparently don't have a section for "Materials Using Spellshaping" in the main post of this thread. I'll figure that out when I have time.
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Quote Originally Posted by DonQuixote View Post
    In unrelated news, apparently The-Mage-King moved The Sentai, which can sometimes use spellshaping material. In news related to this unrelated news, I apparently don't have a section for "Materials Using Spellshaping" in the main post of this thread. I'll figure that out when I have time.
    Related to your unrelated news, TMK and I are working on a PrC archetype for The Sentai, mixing the Magician's spellshaping with the Prism Ranger's ability to change elements; essentially allowing for a temporary swapping of circles and formulae known. I have run into one little snag in the design for it though. There are multiple Fire/Cold circles but only one circle each for Acid/Shock. This could be an issue in cases where both of the Magician's circles are matched to the element being changed.

    My solution is to come up with at least one half-damage circle for Acid and Shock, and possibly some more hybrid circles besides Astral Essence. I've got a couple ideas in mind, but I wanted your advice for thematic design purposes. I don't just want to come up with something that works for my solution. I want to make sure the new circles fit in with any other application of spellshaping. These are the current themes I had in mind for the hybrid circles:

    Shock/Untyped = Electromagnetism
    Acid/Untyped = Poison or rust
    Cold/Shock = Blizzacane (think Sandy)
    Fire/Acid = Chemical Burn
    Shock/Fire = Plasma Burn
    Acid/Shock = Electrolytic conversion (aka D&D battery acid)
    Cold/Acid = ???
    Last edited by zhdarkstar; 2013-01-30 at 04:03 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    I think the current circles need some expanding before you start making new ones...

    Also, Don Quixote... Is there any reason why Heighten Formulae is written to not improve the damage of most first level formulae? I haven't noticed any higher level formulae that use a spellshape with no extra damage, so only first level formulae remain unaffected by the clause. (There may be some I missed)

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    I think the current circles need some expanding before you start making new ones...
    Trust me when I say this. The design issue I ran into while building the PrC is going to require new circles to overcome it. Regardless of whether or not I create them or someone else does, I'm going to need at least the first two I listed (the half-untyped hybrids) as a minimum solution. I've been cross-checking what I'm designing against what currently exists (original format and revised) to make sure I'm not stepping on toes.

    I appreciate your honesty in the matter. However, I'm still going to move forward with it as I'm going to need these in a couple months. I came here mostly to get thematic advice to make sure the concept for each new circle makes sense within the realm of spellshaping.

    EX1: The Electromagnetism themed circle would be half-shock/half-untyped in terms of damage and have bonus effects against metallic objects, like stun, knockback, disarm, to name a few I had in mind. It would be exceedingly effective against a paladin or other heavily armored targets. On the flip side, it would have no added benefit if used against a druid or monsters bearing no metal.

    EX2: For half-acid/half-untyped, I'm now leaning in the direction of a Rot theme of sorts. Its bonus effects would be against organic matter, functionally opposite of Electromagnetism in terms of what it does and doesn't affect. Druids, unarmored, and natural armor are the ideal targets, and those with metal armor would be resistant.
    Last edited by zhdarkstar; 2013-01-31 at 02:17 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    By the sounds of it, they could be combined with the already existing electricity and acid circles, respectively.

    Also, it may just be my playgroup, but I can't remember the last time I saw a heavily armored opponent, other than the occasional construct. A lot of the time, enemies are chosen from the monster manuals. I don't know how common that is. But it makes electromag kinda useless.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Quote Originally Posted by zhdarkstar View Post
    Shock/Untyped = Electromagnetism
    Acid/Untyped = Poison or rust
    Cold/Shock = Blizzacane (think Sandy)
    Fire/Acid = Chemical Burn
    Shock/Fire = Plasma Burn
    Acid/Shock = Electrolytic conversion (aka D&D battery acid)
    Cold/Acid = ???
    For that, I'd suggest more of a Storm theme. Just the lighting part. Perhaps initial electric damage, plus fire damage in later turns for formulae?
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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Incidentally, MinMax is back up. I'm not going to change the first post quite yet, in case it goes down again, but--for those of you who prefer using the material online--the links are all good again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zhdarkstar View Post
    Related to your unrelated news, TMK and I are working on a PrC archetype for The Sentai, mixing the Magician's spellshaping with the Prism Ranger's ability to change elements; essentially allowing for a temporary swapping of circles and formulae known. I have run into one little snag in the design for it though. There are multiple Fire/Cold circles but only one circle each for Acid/Shock. This could be an issue in cases where both of the Magician's circles are matched to the element being changed.

    My solution is to come up with at least one half-damage circle for Acid and Shock, and possibly some more hybrid circles besides Astral Essence. I've got a couple ideas in mind, but I wanted your advice for thematic design purposes. I don't just want to come up with something that works for my solution. I want to make sure the new circles fit in with any other application of spellshaping. These are the current themes I had in mind for the hybrid circles:

    Shock/Untyped = Electromagnetism
    Acid/Untyped = Poison or rust
    Cold/Shock = Blizzacane (think Sandy)
    Fire/Acid = Chemical Burn
    Shock/Fire = Plasma Burn
    Acid/Shock = Electrolytic conversion (aka D&D battery acid)
    Cold/Acid = ???
    Quote Originally Posted by zhdarkstar View Post
    Trust me when I say this. The design issue I ran into while building the PrC is going to require new circles to overcome it. Regardless of whether or not I create them or someone else does, I'm going to need at least the first two I listed (the half-untyped hybrids) as a minimum solution. I've been cross-checking what I'm designing against what currently exists (original format and revised) to make sure I'm not stepping on toes.

    I appreciate your honesty in the matter. However, I'm still going to move forward with it as I'm going to need these in a couple months. I came here mostly to get thematic advice to make sure the concept for each new circle makes sense within the realm of spellshaping.

    EX1: The Electromagnetism themed circle would be half-shock/half-untyped in terms of damage and have bonus effects against metallic objects, like stun, knockback, disarm, to name a few I had in mind. It would be exceedingly effective against a paladin or other heavily armored targets. On the flip side, it would have no added benefit if used against a druid or monsters bearing no metal.

    EX2: For half-acid/half-untyped, I'm now leaning in the direction of a Rot theme of sorts. Its bonus effects would be against organic matter, functionally opposite of Electromagnetism in terms of what it does and doesn't affect. Druids, unarmored, and natural armor are the ideal targets, and those with metal armor would be resistant.


    Well, the first thing to bear in mind is that the "hybrid" circles aren't actually conceived of as such. The only half-damage circle that is at all related to its damage type is Brilliant Dawn, since Bauglir pointed out at some point that fire gives off light. For the most part, though, the half-damage circles came about because I ran out of damage types. Glimmering Moon, for instance, is entirely unrelated to Perfect Freeze. Astral Essence ended up being fire/cold because I put stars conceptually between the sun and the moon, and it tidied things up. The official stance is that these circles are no more related to the "pure" damage circles than they are to any other circle.

    I honestly don't know what to tell you in terms of thematic advice. I tend towards conceptual simplicity as much as possible, so there's that. I also wouldn't lean too heavily on the damage type for the theme--Glimmering Moon deals cold damage, yet I cannot say I associate low temperatures with insanity. I generally reach for generic fantasy settings with circles, so things that rely on specific levels of scientific knowledge don't tend to get in.

    The major piece of advice I'd offer is that a circle should know what it is and it does, not just what sort of damage it deals. In addition to actual formulae, a circle has a buffing aura and three out-of-combat spell-like abilities, roughly as powerful as 1st-, 4th-, and 6th-level spells. Make sure you have conceptual space for these. Formulae seem like the easy part, until you realize that you need exactly twenty-one combat effects, hopefully balanced against the formulae of the other circles, that don't directly duplicate any existing formula.

    Again, though, half-damage is something I only resorted to because I ran out of damage types. Circle creation is driven by a combination of both conceptual and mechanical space. One is not enough. For example, there was conceptual space for a shapeshifting circle, but it ended up being a mechanical nightmare due to the structure of spellshaping. You seem to have definite mechanical space you want to fill--the damage types--but I'm not seeing the conceptual holes you're going for.

    I will note that electromagnetism effects are a part of Shocking Current, poison effects are a part of Devouring Shadow and Natural Balance, and rust effects are a part of Deteriorating Corrosion. Of those, only Natural Balance has been revised thus far. Reaching for effects that are related to a damage type is probably going to end up giving you ideas that fit into that damage type's primary circle, since that's what I do. Instead, look for concepts that you can then--somewhat arbitrarily--connect to damage types. Acid/Fire, for instance, could be a demonic circle, with Electricity/Fire as angelic. (Note that I tend to avoid alignment-specific circles. These are just examples.)



    chaos_redefined:
    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    I think the current circles need some expanding before you start making new ones...

    Also, Don Quixote... Is there any reason why Heighten Formulae is written to not improve the damage of most first level formulae? I haven't noticed any higher level formulae that use a spellshape with no extra damage, so only first level formulae remain unaffected by the clause. (There may be some I missed)
    Well, I have absolutely no plans to expand circles, though I do plan to continue my revisions when I adjust to my new schedule. The rule is one numen, three incantations, and twenty-one formulae. With sixteen circles, that's sixteen numena, forty-eight incantations, and three hundred thirty-six formulae. I think that's enough support, all things considered.

    The Heighten Formula issue is, however, an oversight. It used to be that 1st-level formulae all added a single die of damage, but that ended up making 1st-level spellshapers much more powerful than other 1st-level characters, so that damage was removed. It shall be fixed!
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Thanks for the input. I think I have a better idea of what directions to take. Three of them I'll do as different disciplines for arcane scientists.

    The reason I went with Plasma Burn for Fire/Shock is because of the two ways gas is converted into plasma: high heat and high voltage. Fluff basis of the spellshape attack would be conjuring a ball of reactive gas and then administering both heat and electricity to the gas, creating an energy release in reaction. The ball would contained by a thin magical barrier and acts like a splash weapon. Formulae would give it an expandable blast radius, for example.

    Another arcane scientist themed circle would be the Acid/Shock. Spellshape attack would be two conjured jets of chemical compounds that release electrical energy when they combine on contact with the target. One idea for a formula would be a one-round buff to an ally's melee weapon that runs the risk of the chemicals hurting your ally if they miss with their attack.

    The third arcane scientist is Acid/Fire. Same idea as Acid/Shock but the chemicals combust instead of creating a shock. Formula can change it from a jet into a grenadelike weapon. I was also thinking of having the Acid/Fire be a touch attack against organic material and a regular ranged attack against metallic objects. The opposite would apply to the Acid/Shock.
    Last edited by zhdarkstar; 2013-02-01 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    My main issue in terms of needing to expand is at first level, where you are typically presented with more formulae than you have circle access, so you are typically choosing 2 of the 3 formulae for a given circle. Furthermore, the minor formulae usually affect the major formulae, so if you have 2 minor and a major, then you are definitely picking that major, making at least one option locked in place. Alternatively, you could venture out to other circles, but then you are only learning one formulae from them, meaning you probably can't use their minor formulae.

    The two solutions to this would be to add more formulae or to make minor formulae that don't require the spellshape to work. For example, fleeting image could get a formulae along the lines of this:
    Illusionary Copy
    Fleeting Image (Minor)
    Level: Spellshaper 1
    Shaping Time: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: 1 round
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No
    An illusionary copy of yourself appears, confusing your opponents. Whenever an attack is made against you, it has a 50% chance of affecting your illusionary copy instead. If it does, and the attack hits, the illusion disappears, ending the effect. The copy has the same AC as you.
    A few formulae like that allow a first level spellshaper to take options outside of his chosen circles if he is able to, and just have a few low-level formulae that he isn't glued into. (Feel free to use that idea, it's the same basic idea as the illusion power from PHB2's wizard alternate class features).

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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Quote Originally Posted by zhdarkstar View Post
    Thanks for the input. I think I have a better idea of what directions to take. Three of them I'll do as different disciplines for arcane scientists.

    The reason I went with Plasma Burn for Fire/Shock is because of the two ways gas is converted into plasma: high heat and high voltage. Fluff basis of the spellshape attack would be conjuring a ball of reactive gas and then administering both heat and electricity to the gas, creating an energy release in reaction. The ball would contained by a thin magical barrier and acts like a splash weapon. Formulae would give it an expandable blast radius, for example.

    Another arcane scientist themed circle would be the Acid/Shock. Spellshape attack would be two conjured jets of chemical compounds that release electrical energy when they combine on contact with the target. One idea for a formula would be a one-round buff to an ally's melee weapon that runs the risk of the chemicals hurting your ally if they miss with their attack.

    The third arcane scientist is Acid/Fire. Same idea as Acid/Shock but the chemicals combust instead of creating a shock. Formula can change it from a jet into a grenadelike weapon. I was also thinking of having the Acid/Fire be a touch attack against organic material and a regular ranged attack against metallic objects. The opposite would apply to the Acid/Shock.
    Well, as I said, "science" isn't exactly within the core spellshaping fluff, so I wouldn't really consider them to fit within general spellshaping.

    That said, neither does sentai, so do what you want.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    My main issue in terms of needing to expand is at first level, where you are typically presented with more formulae than you have circle access, so you are typically choosing 2 of the 3 formulae for a given circle. Furthermore, the minor formulae usually affect the major formulae, so if you have 2 minor and a major, then you are definitely picking that major, making at least one option locked in place. Alternatively, you could venture out to other circles, but then you are only learning one formulae from them, meaning you probably can't use their minor formulae.
    Anchorite: Three formulae known, two circles
    Elemental adept: Six formulae known, four circles
    Impulse mage: Six formulae known, five circles
    Savant: Six formulae known, four circles
    Spellsage: Six formulae known, seven circles
    Spellshape champion: Three formulae known, three circles

    Only the elemental adept and the savant will need to have two or more formulae from more than one of their chosen circles. Anchorite and impulse mage only need to double up once. Spellsage and spellshape champion can choose to start with only one formula per circle.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    The two solutions to this would be to add more formulae or to make minor formulae that don't require the spellshape to work. For example, fleeting image could get a formulae along the lines of this:


    A few formulae like that allow a first level spellshaper to take options outside of his chosen circles if he is able to, and just have a few low-level formulae that he isn't glued into. (Feel free to use that idea, it's the same basic idea as the illusion power from PHB2's wizard alternate class features).
    What about the rule that you must know a circle's spellshape attack in order to learn formulae from that circle? A rule that I very intentionally included and will not be changing, I'll point out.

    A 1st-level spellshaper already has a lot of customization potential, far more than a lot of classes. Even if you had to take every 1st-level formula from your chosen circles, without any choice between them, you're still choosing a combination of three to seven circles from sixteen options.
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Roaring Tide has been revised. Please inform me of every mistake that was made in the process of the revision.

    • Many formulae have been renamed
    • Surging jet now deals bludgeoning damage
    • Water Pulse detached from surging jet
    • Billowing Fog detached from surging jet
    • Rainstorm replaced with Refresh
    • Siphon Life's Water replaced with Fluid Barrier
    • Tidal Burst transformed into Roaring Geyser
    • Drain Fluids replaced with Tidal Ebb
    • Fist of the Geyser replaced with Binding Currents


    MinMax is also back up, so I've updated the first post with links and the link. Keeping the .docx available, just in case people like it. I haven't ported Roaring Tide in yet, but I'll get on that shortly.

    Also, we're now at eight of sixteen circles revised. Hopefully, it'll take less than a month for the next one--Crushing Stone, if you're wondering. Either way, we're halfway through the circles!
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

  24. - Top - End - #264
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Finally got some feedback for you! Our dragonheart adept's not doing too hot in "Essence of Evil," but he kinda ignored my warnings about aligned damage, so I'mma say that's his fault (I ruled for transparency, so he ended up creating a few black cysts).

    Anyway, I haven't checked on this yet, but the totem aura ability of the dragonheart adept, at least when we checked it during chargen, referred to "spellshape aura," which the anchorite no longer has? We're assuming it's switched to the numen at the moment...

  25. - Top - End - #265
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Yeah, I haven't done the revision pass on the non-standard base classes. Anything that refers to spellshape auras refers to numena--part of the reason that I made the change is that so many non-anchorite things used the auras that it was silly to pretend that it was the anchorite's thing.
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

  26. - Top - End - #266
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    Also, Don Quixote... Is there any reason why Heighten Formulae is written to not improve the damage of most first level formulae? I haven't noticed any higher level formulae that use a spellshape with no extra damage, so only first level formulae remain unaffected by the clause. (There may be some I missed)
    This has now been fixed. The relevant sentence has been replaced with: "In addition, a major formula that modifies a spellshape attack adds an extra two dice of damage to the spellshape attack for each level by which you heighten the formula."

    Quote Originally Posted by DonQuixote View Post
    As I've said, I'll toy with the idea of letting anchorites replace previously-known formulae with formulae from the new circle of the same level or lower. But they'll still need to meet any prerequisites.
    Apparently, anchorites could actually already do this and nobody told me. "Whenever you gain a new chosen circle, you may choose to learn up to two new formulae from that circle in place of ones you already know, losing the old formulae in exchange for the new ones." Doesn't even specify "same level or lower," so...yeah.
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

  27. - Top - End - #267
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    I've found what my problem was with options at first level. Some of the options really suck in comparison to others. For example, while most major formulae are "spellshape with first level spell tacked on", there are these random formulae that are actually "spellshape with cantrip tacked on"... and in comparison, cantrips are pretty weak in comparison to first level spells.

    This includes pretty much any first level formulae which gives a straight penalty to strength or attacks. Most of them are comparable to the cantrip Touch of Fatigue. (Sure, Touch of Fatigue is a touch spell, but the effect is still a cantrip effect). These aren't options. This is made worse for Roaring Tide, who gets a cantrip effect and a really situational effect that a lot of players won't see (I don't see enemies wearing armor all that often), so players choosing Roaring Tide only have one useful option. These options need to be made stronger. (Admittedly, roaring tide's strength penalty effect lasts for 2 rounds instead of 1, but it only covers strength, while other ones affect dex as well)

    While I may just be being picky, I do note that when I look at Devouring Shadow, I can make the enemy frightened, but Fleeting Image makes them fatigued for a round, both with the same circumstances (mind-affecting, will save), I kinda feel that one of those got jipped.

  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    The thing is that you're doing this in addition to damage. Given that 1d6 points of damage is the most you're doing with a 1st-level spell at 1st-level...you're already getting decent mileage. The 1st-level options are...well, they're for 1st level. You know, that level where everyone is at their weakest and least interesting.

    My design philosophy places 1st level at the lowest priority. That's where you start, you're only there for one level, and it's never seen as a goal to be reached. Indeed, a decent number of games begin at higher levels, meaning that 1st-level options become completely superfluous.

    It's also worth noting that only half of the circles have currently been revised. That Devouring Shadow formula is actually one of the ones that's going to be getting the axe. So, grain of salt and all that.

    Out of curiosity, which 1st-level formulae would you consider equivalent to "attack plus 1st-level spell" and which would you consider equivalent to "attack plus cantrip"?
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    Some of these are just measuring power level, not actually looking for cantrips that are comparable. So, take with a grain of salt. Unless stated, most of these aren't top-tier first level spells. They are still usable, but they are outclassed by ray of enfeeblement, ray of clumsiness, net of shadows, etc...

    Flattening Gust - Currently a cantrip, but only because the bonus is so low. Use the spellshaper's shaping stat and it goes to being equivalent to a first level spell.
    Windlock - It's two cantrips combined. The penalty on attacks and reflex saves seems like a cantrip, and the lowered speed is about there as well. Plus damage, of course. I don't think the two cantrips together amount to a first level spell, but they are stronger than a cantrip. Level 0.5?
    Illuminating Blast - First level spell (faerie fire) + attack
    Stonefall - First level spell + attack (but there are stronger first level spells)
    Armor-eating Acid - First level spell + attack.
    Hand of Clinging Shadow - Weakened first level spell. Single-target net of shadows.
    Vitality Drain - First level spell. Cure Light Wounds.
    Moonlight Blast - Situational first level spell? Really situational.
    Shadow of the new moon - Bonus first level spell. It's essentially a second ranged touch attack 1d6 damage.
    Wild Growth - Entangle. Very solid first level spell.
    Brain Freeze - Against a solo enemy, this is actually stronger than a 3rd level maneuver (white raven tactics), if you set the initiatives up right and they fail the save. Against multiple enemies... it gets messy. I'd say first is reasonable.
    Ice Glaze - Grease. Very solid first level spell.
    Patina of Rust - Situational first level spell, amped up. Problem is situational.
    Ignite - First level blast.
    Smoke Cloud - Second level spell... except there's an additional save (and the ranged touch attack). So, solid first level spell. You could put it at second level if you removed the reflex save to negate.
    Jolting Lightning - Weak first level spell. Didn't even realize it existed till I was playing pathfinder though.
    Manipulate Weapon - First level spell.
    Vision of Failure - Strong cantrip (due to duration)
    Deceleration - I'm going with strong cantrip, but an argument could be made for weak first level spell.
    Dotage - Cantrip
    Warp Words - First level, situational. The situation appears more often at higher levels, in my experience.
    Phantom Fatigue - Cantrip.

    I've only included major formulae that include a spellshape attack. There are plenty of minor formulae that modify a spellshape for this turn, but you asked for major and I'm lazy and supposed to be working.

    In my opinion, power-wise, the following formulae are spot on: Illuminating Blast (faerie fire), stonefall (prone), armor-eating acid (-4 AC for a round), hand of clinging shadow (20% miss chance), vitality drain (cure light wounds), shadow of the new moon (second attack), ignite (set them on fire) and manipulate weapon (backbiter). These are all first level spells that don't see a lot of play, typically because another first level spell does the same job and better, or has another use. The exception being Vitality Drain, but if this is replacing spellcasting, you need some healing ability.

    Ice Glaze and Wild Growth replicate powerful first level spells that wizards and druids memorize regularly, respectively.

    Flatting Gust, Windlock, Jolting Lightning, Vision of Failure, Deceleration, Dotage and Phantom Fatigue need a power-up.

    Moonlight blast, Patina of Rust and Warp Words are tricky: They are either really really powerful, or really really underpowered, depending on the circumstances.

    I'm unsure on Brain Freeze and Smoking Cloud, and would have to see them in play before I could comment further.
    Last edited by chaos_redefined; 2013-02-19 at 12:15 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #270
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    Default Re: [3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

    I think part of the problem is that we're approaching the power level issue from different angles. I see a standard action to deal 1d8 damage and impose a -2 penalty to Strength for two rounds as a valid decision at 1st level.

    To give you an idea of my approach, the following 1st-level major formulae were already on my chopping block:
    • Animated Stone
    • Terrorize
    • Light of the Moon
    • Moonlight Blast
    • Shadow of the New Moon
    • Rumbling Thunder
    • Manipulate Weapon


    I'm honestly much more likely to replace Ice Glaze and Wild Growth with weaker effects than I am to push other things up. Situational effects are fine with me: again, at 1st level, characters haven't really come into their own. Just so long as the situational nature falls off after 5th level or so, it's all kosher.

    I don't really see any serious power level concerns at 1st level. There are some choices that are better than others, yes. That is always going to be true. Unless I make all formulae distressingly similar in effect, there are always going to be some strictly better options. So long as there's nothing that blows everything else out of the water--and not just at 1st level, but at higher levels as well--I'm having a hard time seeing a dire need for reform at 1st level. Sure, you can min/max for 1st level...but doing so locks you into certain circle selections, and I hope you're still happy with those at 5th level. If you are, more power to you, but 1st level really is the most unimportant span of the game to me.

    ----------------------------------------------

    To clear up one minor point:

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    if this is replacing spellcasting
    Spellshaping isn't meant to replace spellcasting. Some people have talked about using it for that purpose, and I wish them all the best, but I'm not so naïve as to think that the subsystem can support every spellcaster trope that people might want to play. You can't actually play a necromancer, for instance. No way to create undead minions. Thus, in every setting I've run since first drafting a codex, spellshaping has existed alongside spellcasting.

    Balance-wise, spellshaping is intended to be much closer to the Tome of Battle than, say, sorcerer or wizard casting. In the original draft, something like half the formulae were re-skinned maneuvers. Some of those still exist. There are also formulae that are re-skinned spells. In those cases, I've tried very hard to avoid grabbing any of the ridiculously powerful spells--a task made significantly more difficult by the fact that I've never actually played a spellcaster and have no idea how to do so. Spell slots scared me from the very beginning, and I wanted nothing to do with them...so much so that the solution became "write new magic." A decision, incidentally, that my roommate would later arrive at herself. (Go on, click it. You know you want to.)

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    Apologies if any of this makes me come across as arrogant or mean-spirited. I have a lot of non-homebrew--and therefore non-fun--work on my plate at the moment, and precisely calibrating half of the 1st-level effects is...not terribly inviting at the moment. Especially given that I still have half of the circles left to revise, followed by the prestige classes, followed by writing monsters, followed by the appendices. (Followed by a possible Kickstarter campaign for commissioning art? Who can tell!)

    I do appreciate the amount of thought you're putting into this, but I'm not seeing what makes 1st level so valuable. In fact, only the first campaign I played in actually started at 1st level. Admittedly, I've only been playing D&D for two and a half years--having spent all but the first four months working on spellshaping--but it does seem to be a trend to start somewhere between 3rd level and 5th level.

    I'm also incredibly sleepy at the moment, with a lot of reading to do before the morning, so there's also that. It just feels like, at a certain level, you might

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    just be being picky
    I can still give some of them a look over the course of the revision, but it's going to be much lower priority than fixing the things that are actually broken or don't fit the template.

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    Ramble ramble ramble.

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    Sections are fun.

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    ...maybe I should start those readings.
    Homebrew I've written. Includes an entire index of the spellshaping materials, as well as a few other tidbits I've done.

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