Bleach V: Well that was a waste of time (Fullbring? What's that?)

[Morph Bark]

The grand reveal, the true mastermind and final boss, Yachiru!

She obviously went rogue with Spiral Pow--/shot

[Drolyt]

If you want to think of whats to improve Bleach, we should start at Fisher King being killed like a punk by Ichigo's dad.

Can't say I ever had a problem with that.

[LaZodiac]

Can't say I ever had a problem with that.

Fisher King was the first Hollow that truely gave Ichigo a real fight. It was also the only Hollow he had a deep, personal grudge againest. He was shaping up to be a perfect enemy figure to Ichigo that would inspire him to become stronger. Then his Dad ganks his ass without any effort, and what was called one of the strongest Hollow's is reduced to a pathetic whimp, to make way for the cooler newer characters.

To use an example, this would be like, if in Naruto, after Sasuke and Naruto fight and the end of the Sasuke retreival arc, someone just randomly killed Sasuke and Orochimaru brought out newer, better prodigies to fight with.

[Frozen_Feet]

I had no problem with Isshin ganking Grand Fisher after recovering his powers. Because you gotta remember who was Ichigo's mom's husband.

[lord_khaine]

I dont have a problem with Fisher going down like that either, i newer liked him, and was only happy to see him disapear for good.

[Xondoure]

Fisher King was the first Hollow that truely gave Ichigo a real fight. It was also the only Hollow he had a deep, personal grudge againest. He was shaping up to be a perfect enemy figure to Ichigo that would inspire him to become stronger. Then his Dad ganks his ass without any effort, and what was called one of the strongest Hollow's is reduced to a pathetic whimp, to make way for the cooler newer characters.

To use an example, this would be like, if in Naruto, after Sasuke and Naruto fight and the end of the Sasuke retreival arc, someone just randomly killed Sasuke and Orochimaru brought out newer, better prodigies to fight with.

Right because Orochimaru was never randomly killed off and replaced by newer villains.

[VanBuren]

Fisher King was the first Hollow that truely gave Ichigo a real fight. It was also the only Hollow he had a deep, personal grudge againest. He was shaping up to be a perfect enemy figure to Ichigo that would inspire him to become stronger. Then his Dad ganks his ass without any effort, and what was called one of the strongest Hollow's is reduced to a pathetic whimp, to make way for the cooler newer characters.

To use an example, this would be like, if in Naruto, after Sasuke and Naruto fight and the end of the Sasuke retreival arc, someone just randomly killed Sasuke and Orochimaru brought out newer, better prodigies to fight with.

What, you mean Isshin didn't have a personal grudge against him? If anything, I'd imagine Isshin's grudge would be deeper, because unlike Ichigo, Isshin had the power to save her.

[Maugan Ra]

Honestly, while there have been plenty of things I've disagreed with in Bleach over the years, Isshin getting Grand Fisher was never really one of them. He certainly had decent justification, at least as much as Ichigo, for hating that particular hollow. It also served as a reveal and expansion on Isshin's character, which helped for when he turned up and got involved later. And the power demonstrated there also neatly explained exactly why Ichigo himself is so freakishly strong - he's the son of a captain.

The only thing I disagree with about how the whole situation was handled was Isshin never telling Ichigo that his mother's murderer had been slain.

[LaZodiac]

Right because Orochimaru was never randomly killed off and replaced by newer villains.

You kinda misread what I said their. I say SASUKE is the one who gets killed by a punk. But whatever.

I agree that Isshun has a reason to kill Fisher King, but it just serves to show that Ichigo isn't a really good hero. It would of been better if he got strong enough to defeat Fisher King himself.

[VanBuren]

But really, it makes more sense as Isshin's vengeance. There was never anything Ichigo could have done to protect her. The same is not true for Isshin.

[Ramza00]

Fisher King was the first Hollow that truely gave Ichigo a real fight. It was also the only Hollow he had a deep, personal grudge againest. He was shaping up to be a perfect enemy figure to Ichigo that would inspire him to become stronger. Then his Dad ganks his ass without any effort, and what was called one of the strongest Hollow's is reduced to a pathetic whimp, to make way for the cooler newer characters.

To use an example, this would be like, if in Naruto, after Sasuke and Naruto fight and the end of the Sasuke retreival arc, someone just randomly killed Sasuke and Orochimaru brought out newer, better prodigies to fight with.

I disagree for hollows are not a personal villain, you have to defeat hollows not because it is personal but because if you do not they will create death and destruction to everything that lives. In effect Hollows are corruptive influence, they are perverting the natural way of things. It isn't personable.

The Grand Fisher in my mind failed as a villain for he only had two things going for him
1) He actually retained his intelligence and thus was crafty
2) He tried to make things personal for the person fighting him
As long as you remember your true purpose as a Shinigami was to cleanse souls and not get personal he was of little threat. If you defeated the Grand Fisher he could no longer hurt you or anybody else you cared about, if Ichigo remained dispassionate he would avenge his mother.

[LaZodiac]

I disagree for hollows are not a personal villain, you have to defeat hollows not because it is personal but because if you do not they will create death and destruction to everything that lives. In effect Hollows are corruptive influence, they are perverting the natural way of things. It isn't personable.

The Grand Fisher in my mind failed as a villain for he only had two things going for him
1) He actually retained his intelligence and thus was crafty
2) He tried to make things personal for the person fighting him
As long as you remember your true purpose as a Shinigami was to cleanse souls and not get personal he was of little threat. If you defeated the Grand Fisher he could no longer hurt you or anybody else you cared about, if Ichigo remained dispassionate he would avenge his mother.

Exactly! And that's why he WOULD of been a great villian. Ichigo would be motivated by his passion for vengeance, getting stronger, but on his path to getting stronger, strong enough to beat Fisher King, he'd learn the importance of BEING that impartial servent that the Shinigami appear to be. Character development!

[Ramza00]

Exactly! And that's why he WOULD of been a great villian. Ichigo would be motivated by his passion for vengeance, getting stronger, but on his path to getting stronger, strong enough to beat Fisher King, he'd learn the importance of BEING that impartial servent that the Shinigami appear to be. Character development!

I disagree for the ending is way too predictable, thus you won't achieve satisfaction when it occurs. The Grand Fisher is by the very definition of the world a small fry it is sad that Ichigo's life was upturned by a small fry but that is the way the world works.

Tousen, Gin, and Aizen are more interesting villains for they willfully chose to be corrupted. Sure I wish the series was darker but the grand fisher was not the avenue to make the series better.

[LaZodiac]

I disagree for the ending is way too predictable, thus you won't achieve satisfaction when it occurs. The Grand Fisher is by the very definition of the world a small fry it is sad that Ichigo's life was upturned by a small fry but that is the way the world works.

Tousen, Gin, and Aizen are more interesting villains for they willfully chose to be corrupted. Sure I wish the series was darker but the grand fisher was not the avenue to make the series better.

Tousen and Aizen are....not as good for me as they are for you, clearly.

[thubby]

Tousen and Aizen are....not as good for me as they are for you, clearly.

but you agree gin was good...?
tousen was poorly handled, but aizen is more interesting.

he exists on a continuum. i think we can all agree his big reveal and ascent into hueco mundo at the end of SS arc is one of the better twists in anime. the follow-up was just on a sharp down-slope.

[Ramza00]

Tousen and Aizen are....not as good for me as they are for you, clearly.

I am not really a big fan of Aizen. I do like Tosen, this is a man who you think has a moral compass who you are sure he is Lawful Good or Lawful Evil, but in the end just turns out to be a man wanting revenge and he has deranged himself and others convincing he is on the side of justice when in reality he just wanted the pain to stop and Aizen gave him a purpose and a solution to his own personal problem.

Tosen is interesting for everything that is bad and nasty about hollows Tosen voluntary accepts (in the end) if it will give him power to have his revenge. Tosen if proof of the saying "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." In the end at Tosen's quest instead of being at the precipice starring into the void, Tosen gladly threw his entire body into the abyss. Tosen is far worse than any hollow, for hollows do not choose to be hollows they merely become hollows.

I adore Gin. I cheered when Gin stabbed "Superman" in the torso and made that big hole appear. I seriously thought that Gin would then become the big bad who takes Ichigo on (remember almost always Ichigo fought Gin they have that history and personal connection). Sadly for 1 manga it looked like Gin won but in the next week the little hoggy pulled a deus ex machina and saved Mr Superman.

[LaZodiac]

but you agree gin was good...?
tousen was poorly handled, but aizen is more interesting.

he exists on a continuum. i think we can all agree his big reveal and ascent into hueco mundo at the end of SS arc is one of the better twists in anime. the follow-up was just on a sharp down-slope.

Gin was amusing, though his backstory was kind of horrible. I just really liked his Bankai because of his ridiculous it was.

Totally agreed. Aizen's twist was awesome. The results of said twist was...not.

[Xondoure]

You kinda misread what I said their. I say SASUKE is the one who gets killed by a punk. But whatever.

I agree that Isshun has a reason to kill Fisher King, but it just serves to show that Ichigo isn't a really good hero. It would of been better if he got strong enough to defeat Fisher King himself.

My point was, villains get picked off all the time. And Orochimaru's sudden departure from big bad was a much bigger shift than Fisher King's death.

[thubby]

Gin was amusing, though his backstory was kind of horrible. I just really liked his Bankai because of his ridiculous it was.

i...
gin is a good example of what frustrates me about bleach.

his backstory is actually a really compelling one. someone causes harm to the only thing a kid in rags truly treasures, and he spends his entire life bowing and scraping to the very man he hates, going to unspeakable lengths, hoping for one moment to make it right.
and he fails.

it's the stuff of a true tragedy.

that is who gin is. all the elements are there, you can see the shape of it. but it never gets delivered on properly.

[LaZodiac]

i...
gin is a good example of what frustrates me about bleach.

his backstory is actually a really compelling one. someone causes harm to the only thing a kid in rags truly treasures, and he spends his entire life bowing and scraping to the very man he hates, going to unspeakable lengths, hoping for one moment to make it right.
and he fails.

it's the stuff of a true tragedy.

that is who gin is. all the elements are there, you can see the shape of it. but it never gets delivered on properly.

Er, my bad. By horrible I mean "Oh man this is so sad" horrible, not "this sucks" horrible

[Maugan Ra]

Gin is, as far as I'm concerned, basically the patron saint of vengeance. The man spent centuries setting everything up, waiting for his one, perfect shot. And when he gets his chance, he just casually walks up to his target, and stabs him in the heart. With a sword that basically injects acid into his chest cavity, just to make the point.

He's also earned a special place in my heart because, of all the Bleach characters, when he revealed his sword and explained it's abilities like he's apparently contractually obliged to... he lied.

And, you know, he beat Ichigo into the floor without any fancy transformations or even Kido. That deserves some praise.

[HandofShadows]

What, you mean Isshin didn't have a personal grudge against him? If anything, I'd imagine Isshin's grudge would be deeper, because unlike Ichigo, Isshin had the power to save her.

I kinda doubt this. When Isshin talkes to Ryuken Ishida, Ryuken notes that Isshin seems to have gained his powers back. That seems to indicate it happened fairly recently. Isshin probably had almost no powers 10 years ago or very weak ones at best.

[Drolyt]

I kinda doubt this. When Isshin talkes to Ryuken Ishida, Ryuken notes that Isshin seems to have gained his powers back. That seems to indicate it happened fairly recently. Isshin probably had almost no powers 10 years ago or very weak ones at best.

True, but he probably still felt guilty about not being able to protect her.

[VanBuren]

I kinda doubt this. When Isshin talkes to Ryuken Ishida, Ryuken notes that Isshin seems to have gained his powers back. That seems to indicate it happened fairly recently. Isshin probably had almost no powers 10 years ago or very weak ones at best.

It's really no different than Ichigo felt during the Fullbring Arc when his friends were getting hurt and he couldn't do anything about it. The fact that he would have been able to help at one point makes it even worse that he couldn't then.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I'm, by and large, in the same boat as LaZodiac.

Much like the lion's share of the series, I loathe how the Grand Fisher sub-plot was handled. If it had to be the prodigal captain who did the deed, the least Kubo could have done would be to have him protecting his family's home while the girls were sleeping fitfully. That way, it would be a close of the cycle as he fills the traditional paternal role of the guardian of the hearth. THAT, my friends, would be how a half-decent writer could have handled it.

As a side note, I agree that the Aizen twist was a great reveal. However, Bleach died the moment said villain started to monologue. I forget if the hair slick was before, or after, the expeditionary speech of his...

-but that is the visual my mind applies to the true fall of the series. Aizen would have been an AMAZING villain if he kept his gob shut/remained cryptic and left his appearance alone.

[Maugan Ra]

I'm idly toying with the notion that the white-haired Sternritter following Bach around is actually the mastermind behind the Quincy. He's kept himself close to the centre of the action so far, but hasn't gotten directly involved - not even when Bach looks like he's being severely threatened by Yamamoto. He's the only one so far that we've seen speaking with Bach on an even level.

This would explain his presence and actions, and allow Bach to get stomped into the ground without cutting the storyline short. It's probably not the case, but random guesses are a pastime of mine.

[Infernally Clay]

It would be difficult to say. My current prediction is that Yhwach isn't really trying very hard. All he has really done so far is dodge Yama-jii's attacks, fire off an arrow and use Ginto. If anything, it's like he's observing the Bankai and probing it for weaknesses. Indeed, I'm expecting him to pull out a Zanpakuto or something - he may even be observing the Bankai in use so he knows all of its techniques and weaknesses before he steals it.

Yama-jii is going to die here, but the question is whether Yhwach does it or Zanka no Tachi does.

[HandofShadows]

I'm idly toying with the notion that the white-haired Sternritter following Bach around is actually the mastermind behind the Quincy.

I have had similar thoughts.

[Maugan Ra]

It would be difficult to say. My current prediction is that Yhwach isn't really trying very hard. All he has really done so far is dodge Yama-jii's attacks, fire off an arrow and use Ginto. If anything, it's like he's observing the Bankai and probing it for weaknesses. Indeed, I'm expecting him to pull out a Zanpakuto or something - he may even be observing the Bankai in use so he knows all of its techniques and weaknesses before he steals it.

Yama-jii is going to die here, but the question is whether Yhwach does it or Zanka no Tachi does.

He did pull a sword and try to kill Yamamoto, having observed the Bankai and determining that it's weakness was a lack of range. Which was when we discovered that Zanka no Tachi has a defensive aspect that vaporized most of the sword blade.

As a general theme, when you've forced an enemy to fall back to their last and greatest defensive measure, destroyed their weapon and haven't taken so much as a scratch, it's fair to say you're winning. This is before the summoning of freaky charred zombies.

[Frozen_Feet]

You're all wrong. Because the true Big Bad is, and has always been, Urahara.

Also, I bet you Mayuri is off somwhere, doing something sinister. I wouldn't even discount the possibility of him being the one to backstab Yamamoto.