OOTS #827 - The Discussion Thread

[ExuroCastellum]

12 gods welcome you home brave paladin. Osmium, the oh to cute silent killer. I'm distressed that judging by alot of the sentiment ive seen im one of the few tarquin fans XD im glad to see Team Evil again, but c'mon, tarquin's so uber. Me thinks there may be some tactical geniusing when these storm clouds gather round a the next gate.

[Sicarius]

I'm impressed. The Giant really, in these last few comics, has demonstrated great imagination and storytelling. Many players and DM's alike know that the paladin class involves, by it's very nature, a great deal of zeal (amplified by their immunity to fear) and selflessness. With a look at the remnants of the Sapphire Guard, all of them exhibit these traits, but the Giant presents different and varied ways to exhibit them in the comic.

I actually am comparing Thanh favorably to Roy. Both are incredibly Lawful front-line warriors who ended up toe-to-toe in a relatively impossible CR encounter. Both take their duty to the very end of their lives. He's earned his spot in the Southern Gods' Lawful Good afterlife.

Would've liked to see what his Paladin Mount was. I'm guessing if he didn't have any trouble fighting a few wights, he was at least a 5th-level paladin.

[t209]

Why did the resistance have to be smashed? Is it part of good ending and bad ending cycle? Why Thanh? Why?

[Icedaemon]

Hmm... Confirmation that paladins with facial hair are actually competent and noble. Also, Redcloak seems to have become even more detached and cold.

[ti'esar]

Animal cruelty is also a quick way to earn hatred for a character.

Yet quite a few people have actually suggested Yukyuk might join the Order after Belkar's inevitable demise. Weird.

But it just strikes me as out of character that Redcloak would let any of his goblins die.

Um... what?

[Cronos988]

Ok so this IS some secret plan of Redcloak to get the Phylactery without anyone knowing. Now the question is what is he going to do with it?

[Herabec]

*salutes* Thahn, you died as a true paladin does.

Though, I question Redcloak's probable course of action now; why keep it to himself unless he intends to use the phylactery as leverage against Xykon in some way?

Did losing an eye not teach him anything? >_<; Xykon will likely just kill him if he learns of deception.

[snikrept]

Hmm can Redcloak craft an item that can fool Xykon into thinking it is the real phylactery?

Divinations won't reveal the truth because the original is warded, but does he have some sort of lich's affinity for his own soul box? Can he tell the difference?

[Herabec]

Hmm can Redcloak craft an item that can fool Xykon into thinking it is the real phylactery?

Divinations won't reveal the truth because the original is warded, but does he have some sort of lich's affinity for his own soul box? Can he tell the difference?

The rules are vague on that matter, but I would think that - as a phylactery actually holds the soul of the Lich - the Lich would be capable of telling a fake from the real deal. It would probably just feel wrong.

[Susil]

What happened to their organization between the time of Soon and the present order of self-sacrificing paladins?

Lord Shojo.

(Sorry to anyone who said the same thing already in the fast-moving thread!)


On-topic: This has been a terrific arc. I know there's tons of posts saying that sort of thing in the forum, but its strips like this that remind me why OOTS is my favourite webcomic by miles: edge-of-the seat drama, action, humour and some genuinely emotional moments, particualrly for the noble Thahn. Bravo Giant!

[St Fan]

But it just strikes me as out of character that Redcloak would let any of his goblins die. Maybe it will make more sense later.

Um... what?

Delusion. Or more exactly, complete "black or white" thinking:

"Redcloak was ready to let any goblin or hobgoblin die for the plan before his epiphany. Now, Redcloak has seen the light and wouldn't let any goblinoid die, ever, whatever the circumstances."

Sorry, but no. It's not either/or here, you are blind to a lot of middle ground. I assure you, Redcloak is still quite ready to let a goblin die, or a whole bunch of goblins die, even if he have to kill them himself. He's just objecting to the fact that they would die needlessly. He's Evil, with a capital "E", just in case anybody forget. There is absolutly no need for it to "make more sense later", it's perfectly in character right now.

[Larae]

Man I'm really not sure how to feel on this one. I've always felt that Redcloak was a tragic and even semi-heroic sort of villain. When I think about it from the light that he thinks the resistance was to blame for the massacre at the Goblin's barbeque, I can understand why he was so cold. But it just strikes me as out of character that Redcloak would let any of his goblins die. Maybe it will make more sense later.

I do agree with you about the Redcloak being a tragic hero, but I wouldn't call his actions out of character. I see them as character development - villainous character development, but development all the same. Back in the Azure City arc (post What Have I Done realisation), he would have protested against needless goblin deaths because he was still trying to be a hero and was desperate not to turn into Xykon.

Compare that to now, after his actions cost him his eye: Cold, efficient, and utterly shameless. I mean, just look at his speech to Thahn. In the past he might have accepted Thahn's duel or let that goblin live because it's the honourable thing to do, but now he sees such chivalry as unneccesary risktaking. He's learned from his mistakes, and evolved from a Well-Intentioned Extremist into a terrifyingly pragmatic villain. To me, that descent into Evil (especially when compared to V's character development) is what makes RC a tragic hero.

On-topic: This has been a terrific arc. I know there's tons of posts saying that sort of thing in the forum, but its strips like this that remind me why OOTS is my favourite webcomic by miles: edge-of-the seat drama, action, humour and some genuinely emotional moments, particualrly for the noble Thahn. Bravo Giant!

Woot! I'll drink to that!

[Baron Pineapple]

Just wanted to add that it's not so much imaginary that spells like Resurrection and True Resurrection can be used offensively against liches, as it is obsolescence of editions. In 1rst and 2nd Ed AD&D, liches and demiliches had included notations in their stat blocks that those spells and Dispel Evil had a minor percent chance of destroying them. 1st and 2nd Ed had TONS of little special notes written into monster entries back in those days, most of which never got reprinted in the new editions. Much of the lore and fluff text sometimes makes it through reprinting in articles and updates of material from those days, even though the newer editions don't place those notations in the stat blocks anymore, so many veteran DM's and Players sometimes still operate under those paradigms. So I don't blame people for thinking that's a valid tactic, cause those little 'weakness' entries used to be official canon.

[JoseB]

(Regarding "True Resurrection")

Actually, I think it's a one-minute casting time.

Nope. 10 minutes. Check it out:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm

Also, it wouldn't work against Xykon. Copy-paste of the relevant text from the above link (emphasis mine):

"You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures."

In other words: For Xykon to be affected by a "True Resurrection", you must first destroy him as a lich (good luck) and then cast "True Resurrection" to have him back as a human of flesh and blood (if he allows himself to be resurrected, that is).

[RMS Oceanic]

However, at 107 or so, he may have already passed his natural lifespan, so maybe True Resurrection may not work anyway. The rules are sketchy about this.

[Kish]

However, at 107 or so, he may have already passed his natural lifespan, so maybe True Resurrection may not work anyway. The rules are sketchy about this.

No, they really aren't. He did not die of old age, and so he can be resurrected.

How long he would live as a living sorcerer again before dying of old age is another question.

[Tobimaro]

That devil getting an iPod is going to be disappointed. His extra was inserted by some demons.

[Arrowstorm122]

Redcloak isn't going to tell Xykon anything. Anything at all.

No reason to get caught in lies. Just keep the phylactery hidden and safe, and see what Xykon does when he simply never finds it.

And next time some heroes come along and "kill" Xykon, Redcloak can destroy the phylactery and make it permanent, and be the sole ruler of Gobletopia.

Pretty sure the Plan is still Redcloaks motive.

[The MunchKING]

The sole bright spot for him is that death doesn't mean to them what it does to us . It may be that the dead spy will have officer's rank in the Dark One's army on the Iron Plain. He's certainly earned it.

Or the Dark One could be into dark irony. "Oh you proved to be SO good at spying in life, we want you to spy on the Good Gods for us."

"Oh no. Sir I don't des..."

"As a human soul."

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! !"

[Zolem]

Or the Dark One could be into dark irony. "Oh you proved to be SO good at spying in life, we want you to spy on the Good Gods for us."

"Oh no. Sir I don't des..."

"As a human soul."

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! !"

how would that even work?

[silvadel]

I'd have named that strip "The one that got away."

It is obvious nobody was meant to get away and it could cause redcloak a heap of trouble in the future even if his deity crafts a fake phycatlery.

[Blaznak]

hey, very enjoyable update! the writing is so good on this strip.

[Ninja Dragon]

Rest in peace, Paladin.

Great comic.

[rman]

which reminds me what level was miko seeing as she owned the oots and crushed RC?

She had enhanced plot aura active at the time she owned the OOTS, nothing could have stopped her.

[Mutant Sheep]

She had enhanced plot aura active at the time she owned the OOTS, nothing could have stopped her.

I'm pretty sure Xykon could.

[Kish]

which reminds me what level was miko seeing as she owned the oots and crushed RC?

Unknowable.

[skaddix]

She had enhanced plot aura active at the time she owned the OOTS, nothing could have stopped her.

she got stopped by xykon and the MITD owned her which I suppose makes them much more powerful then redcloak. So I would say she be at least 16 if not higher since rc is just now 17.

[Ranzear]

I think I may have just figured out why the goblin spy didn't revert once dead, but my basis is in Nethack for this rule:

It's because of a double-polymorph.

The Rogue the resistance was talking about having polymorphed into a spy was the hobgoblin already polymorphed into a human rogue as a spy! That's why he didn't change back: The second polymorph 'locked in' the first one.

That's also why he quipped about both sides using the polymorphed spy idea.

So the polymorphed spy was the same rogue that was already polymorphed, making the first polymorph to human semi-permanent.

I'm not absolutely sure the first polymorph becoming permanent because of the second is the same rule used in 3.5, but it's one I'm familiar with from Nethack at least.

[t209]

After seeing

Spoiler

Show

Thanh's death

Spoiler

Show

I think that Tsukiko, Xykon, Redcloak. These evils must die!

[HUMVEE Driver]

With a single cast of Implosion, you're abe to target up to four beings, one per round.

True, but that wasn't Implosion. Implosion doesn't kill with a brownish aura surrounding the victim. And the victim just died, she didn't implode, like the first two victims who were hit by Implosion. Also, I'm pretty sure that four rounds went by before he targeted the last victim.