MS Paint Adventures V: THIS IS STUPID

[Gez]

We Know Karkat cloned them all, and sent them through gates: Gates that lead ONLY to Post scratch alternia.

Gates that send player/ancestor-carrying meteorites to both pre-Scratch and post-Scratch versions of the universe, as it has been explained several times already in the comic.

The players and ancestors in Altenia-before-it-was-called-Alternia never got to the point where they were ectobiologenerated. This was a little anomaly that made it inevitable and necessary to have the Scratch. Then Karkat did manage the paradox cloning business, creating both the current crop of troll players and the previous crop of troll players. Then they got sent on meteors and the Skaian gates made them surface in different order before and after the scratch, swapping the roles of players and ancestors.

Meenah and Aranea are the player versions of the Condesce and the Marquise respectively. They are. In the same way that Jane is the player version of Nanna Eggbert, and that John is the player version of Poppop Crocker.

The gates send the player/ancestor meteorites to both pre-Scratch and post-Scratch sessions because it is necessary. First, the order in which they appear on the other side of the gate is what determines whether the session is scratched or not, since the scratch consists in a rewind of the universe where the only external parameter changed is the order in which these meteors arrive.

Second reason why it's necessary that gates send to both sides is that players and ancestors are ectocloned in only one session. Meenah and Aranea's team didn't ectoclone themselves. They would not exist at all if it weren't for Karkat's successful ectocloning. The wigglers Karkat made only went to Alternia? Then that means that you have a real paradox: Aranea, Meenah and the others never came into being, so they do not exist, so they did not scratch their session, so Alternia never happened, so the whole story becomes impossible.

Likewise, you can bet that Jane and the rest of the post-Scratch kids will never ectoclone themselves. Because John already did that so that it's not needed.

If "no gates where opened to the pre-scratch" (where doing it man, where making it hapen), then again, no wigglers were delivered by meteors to grow to become Meenah, Aranea, their teammates and their ancestors.

[Scowling Dragon]

Again: Im not sure how that is possible since post Scratch alternia never scratched. Unless Pre-Scratch alternia made post scratch alternia scratch then it wouldn't do it.

In the earth session the gates did not make two kid copies at once. They created the Pre-Scratch copy THEN the scratch happened. It would erase John and the other kids, and replace them with these new kids. But they escaped. Thus creating a bit of a paradox.

Again: There could be a third group. And there is. UU could have done it, other dudes could have done it ect.

edit:

Im not sure when that was explained. Where all the gates like this? Or just a couple of ones (Which seems like a REALY lame explanation). If not, then there are two copies of every meteor obliterating pre-scratch alternia at twice the speed.

[Draconi Redfir]

Schenanigains. Equally as Valid. Somebody else (A third group) created them. Or perhaps they are the glitch in the universes that started the whole "Evil lord english" thing.

>Talk about trolls

>talk about troll ancestors

>talk about game mechanics

>Somehow results in "english creation theory"

I facepalmed so hard my forhead is now red.
And people wonder why i hate him and his fandom.

Except they couldn't have. Then Post-Scratch portals already sent them to pre-scratch. The pre-scratch alteria would unlikely have power over post scratch alternia. It would have to effect post scratch alternia to send them to post scratch so then one portal sending a baby would send one copy to post scratch AND pre-scratch at the same time.

Thing is for a couple of portals to randomly NOT send them to Post Scratch skia seems like kind of a lazy eh moment.

Exept this is kind of exactly how the scratch worked in the human session. Skia sent the kids and the guardians to pre-scratch earth, that didnt work out, so they scratched, then skia changed the portals at the last seccond, sending the kids and guardians to the post-scratch earth. essentually by going through the portals each baby gets split in two, one goes to pre-scratch, one goes to post-scratch.

[Scowling Dragon]

>Somehow results in "english creation theory"

I donno man Shenanigains.

And people wonder why i hate him and his fandom.

Dude? Do you hate me?

Exept this is kind of exactly how the scratch worked in the human session. Skia sent the kids and the guardians to pre-scratch earth, that didnt work out, so they scratched, then skia changed the portals at the last seccond, sending the kids and guardians to the post-scratch earth. essentually by going through the portals each baby gets split in two, one goes to pre-scratch, one goes to post-scratch.

Nope. The Pre-Scratch kids NEVER EXISTED. The whole things exists by a huge paradox. There is only one copy of created kids. The reason they exist now is because they escaped the scratch.

[AgentPaper]

Actually, if you think about it, it makes perfect sense for the pre-scratch Alternia to be peaceful, not despite blackrom, but because of it. Blackrom basically takes normal hatred (or at least some portion of it), and transforms it into something useful and much less destructive. Looking at it that way, it's just a form of conflict resolution. With all that blackrom flying around there's likely to be far less platonic hate, and thus a more peaceful society.

[Scowling Dragon]

Blackrom basically takes normal hatred (or at least some portion of it), and transforms it into something useful and much less destructive.

NO! Look at black rom relationships! They always teater on the edge of killing each other!

Snowman chopped jacks arm off! These relationships are horribly destructive, but simply biologically necessary. They encourage this type of behavior. I know for certain that a person that goes around hating one thing is bound to have it leach over to other things.

So then a race of people going around all grumpy and grouchy and hurt. That race is far more likely to have wars.

[Gez]

Again: Im not sure how that is possible since post Scratch alternia never scratched.

But it doesn't need to! It already have!

The Scratch isn't what makes the gates appear. The gates every time. The Scratch merely changes when they appear.

In the earth session the gates did not make two kid copies at once. They created the Pre-Scratch copy THEN the scratch happened. It would erase John and the other kids, and replace them with these new kids. But they escaped. Thus creating a bit of a paradox.

The gates do not make copies. The Scratch does not make copies. What makes copies is a fundamental principle of Paradox space, which we have seen countless times, and which we are still seeing now: alternate timelines.

What happens to the universe "after" the scratch? It ceases to exist because it is no longer relevant. There is no after the Scratch because the timeline just ceases, and everything in it is just... blanked out. Like data on a hard drive that you toss into the lava pit of Mount Doom.

Just like Rose ceased to exist in the alternate timeline where John died, Jade never escaped the Earth, and Cal had been neutralized by being prototyped. Dave from that timeline survived through time powers to reach a different timeline (one which would not be cut abruptly), resulting in two Daves, but since he was from an alternate timeline he was doomed to die anyway and chose to sacrifice himself by merging into Crowsprite. Alternate Rose went into Dreamself mode so that a part of her would meld with Alpha Rose's dreamself.

Plenty of other copies have been made this way. Remember the trolls' climactic battle with hordes of Aradiabots sacrificing themselves to buy time for the living trolls to escape to their asteroid? All copies form alternate timelines.

The Scratch is the most powerful alternate timeline generator provided by the game. There are others, of course: things like Trollian that allows you to chat with your pastself can be used to make you do things you wouldn't have done otherwise. But it's on a small scale. You can't really use that to change the entire universe. The Scratch can, and it is its role.

Just like Doomed Dave becoming Davesprite and Doomed Rose melding into Alpha Dream Rose, Jade fleeing through the fourth wall and Meenah killing every troll so that they can "live" on as Dreambubble ghosts is a way to escape the annihilating effect of a timeline being interrupted.

Nope. The Pre-Scratch kids NEVER EXISTED. The whole things exists by a huge paradox. There is only one copy of created kids. The reason they exist now is because they escaped the scratch.

The Pre-Scratch trolls existed because they existed. They just were created in the Post-Scratch version of their universe.

It is normal happenstance when you have closed time loops and spatiotemporal travel aplenty that the causes of an effect might happen in a different timeline. This is what we have with the Scratch.

It's not a copy because of the Scratch, or because of the Gates. It's a copy because it's a different timeline.

[Scowling Dragon]

Plenty of copies where made ALA Time related stuff. Im just not seeing (Outside of the portals making two kid copies) how a universe that does NOT scratch itself create the Pre-Scratch trolls.

The Scratch isn't what makes the gates appear. The gates every time. The Scratch merely changes when and which Scratch they appear. Pre or post

The thing that redirected the portals to post scratch was their session scratching itself. The Post scratch troll session didn't scratch itself.

Thus Unless their portals sent TWO copies (One pre and one post), nothing would have changed the portals to send the trolls into the pre session and not the post session.

[Draconi Redfir]

Snowman chopped jacks arm off! These relationships are horribly destructive, but simply biologically necessary. They encourage this type of behavior. I know for certain that a person that goes around hating one thing is bound to have it leach over to other things.

Snowman and Jack are not Trolls.


Just sayin.

[Scowling Dragon]

Snowman and Jack are not Trolls.


Just sayin.

Yet that was a perfect example of Black-Rom relationship (Hussies words).

[Draconi Redfir]

Yet that was a perfect example of Black-Rom relationship (Hussies words).

Keyword Example it is not ACTUALLY a blackrom relaitionship, the trolls just veiw it as such because it's so close to one. yes they hate eachother, and at the same time still lust for eachother, but that does not mean it is a blackrom relaitionship, as a true blackrom romance would want to ensure the survival of the other, even if it results crossing into matespirit or other territory.

[AgentPaper]

NO! Look at black rom relationships! They always teater on the edge of killing each other!

Snowman chopped jacks arm off! These relationships are horribly destructive, but simply biologically necessary. They encourage this type of behavior. I know for certain that a person that goes around hating one thing is bound to have it leach over to other things.

So then a race of people going around all grumpy and grouchy and hurt. That race is far more likely to have wars.

You're looking at this the wrong way. Blackrom doesn't create hate, it transforms it. Jack and Snowman already hated each other for very good reasons, and then that hate was transformed into one that would cause them to do what they did, instead of killing each other off. They ended up killing each other anyways, but I suspect that that's because they're not trolls, and thus not built to handle that kind of hate.

Just imagine two situation, A which takes place on earth, and B which takes place on alternia. In A, two people hate each other, and one ends up killing the other because they have no way to resolve their hatred other than violence. In situation B, two people hate each other, but are also attracted to each other, and form a blackrom. While they still act violently towards each other, they are much less likely to kill or permanently harm their hateloved one, because they're built to co-exist in this kind of relationship.

Of course, blackrom is still fairly destructive, since it's still hate and all, but not nearly as much as platonic hate (unless done poorly). Humans aren't built to withstand hatred, so it tears us apart physically and psychologically. Trolls, however, are biologically adapted to hate (they would have to be to survive as a species), so it's wrong to assume that hate has the same effects on them as it does us.

There's also the point of hatred leading to more hatred, which is a common occurance for humans. Two people hate each other, one kills the other, and now the dead person's friends also hate the killer. One of them kills the killer, and now the killer's friends hate them, and so on. Now imagine if, at least some of the time, those hatreds turned into a blackrom. That would stop the cycle of revenge, preventing a lot of hatred from ever occurring.

[Scowling Dragon]

You're looking at this the wrong way. Blackrom doesn't create hate, it transforms it.

No it doesn't. All troll hatred is non-platonic. As much as liking a person can become "Love" hating a person can become Kissmetistududup-wekucqjsybdkj. Its just hate with sexual attraction slapped on.

I suspect that that's because they're not trolls, and thus not built to handle that kind of hate.

Hate is still hate. Slapping on sexual attraction does not make hate any less of hate. If it does not sting, burn, and cause pain and suffering, it is not in fact hate.

Just imagine two situation, A which takes place on earth, and B which takes place on alternia. In A, two people hate each other, and one ends up killing the other because they have no way to resolve their hatred other than violence. In situation B, two people hate each other, but are also attracted to each other, and form a blackrom. While they still act violently towards each other, they are much less likely to kill or permanently harm their hateloved one, because they're built to co-exist in this kind of relationship.

Completely irrelevant. In Situation A not all hate ends with death. More likely they just avoid each other.

Situation B ENCOURAGES hate. A hateful person is not just harmful to himself but others.

There's also the point of hatred leading to more hatred, which is a common occurance for humans. Two people hate each other, one kills the other, and now the dead person's friends also hate the killer. One of them kills the killer, and now the killer's friends hate them, and so on. Now imagine if, at least some of the time, those hatreds turned into a blackrom.

Then they hate each other for years slowly poisoning each others lives and the lives of all those around them causing more hate.

[Gez]

The thing that redirected the portals to post scratch was their session scratching itself. The Post scratch troll session didn't scratch itself.

The gates emerge somewhen. The scratch changes that. That doesn't mean the exit value didn't exist before.

It's like, you use time travel to change who wins the lotto. That doesn't mean that there wasn't a lottery winner in the timeline without your meddling.

The post scratch doesn't need to scratch itself. There's one scratch. One change. If the post scratch session was scratched also, that'd make two sets of changes, so there would be three scratch-level timelines: the unscratched one, the first post-scratch, and the second post-scratch.

You seem not to keep in mind that linear causality does not matter.

It's not a time line like this:
|====prescratch universe====\scratch\====postscratch universe====>
That doesn't make sense. It's more like this:
|===prescratch universe====\scratch
|===postscratch universe=============>

They are simultaneous. They started at the same time. They influenced each other. The postscratch by ectocloning the players and ancestors of the prescratch; the prescratch by the memories of the ancestors.

From the point of view of a prescratch player who gets out of her universe's timeline by becoming a dreambubble ghost and starts looking at the postscratch universe's development, then indeed they appear sequential. But they are not!

Look at the whole deal with Jade's penpal (Jake). The universes aren't two different lengths on the same timeline, they are two different timelines which can be made into contact at arbitrary points. Just like how each troll who chatted with the kids used a different temporal approach to their contacts (Karkat trolling John backwards, Kanaya trolling Rose more linearly).

The whole "pre-Scratch" and "post-Scratch" monikers are a bit misleading I think. Because they imply one universe is "before" the scratch and the other is "after". When in truth, there is no after and no before.

[Scowling Dragon]

Augh! I want to drop this! Im just tired of arguing. Lets leave it to a draw.

[irenicObserver]

Spoiler

Show

Well, there was kind of a fight about this while I was gone, but the point I was making from that sequence was:

1) Mother grubs are the only way for trolls to reproduce, to the point that Kanaya losing hers meant the extinction of her species.
2) Mother grubs cannot create more trolls without a mixture of material from redrom and blackrom pairings.
3) Karkat created the troll ancestors in post-scratch Alternia, as well as in his own Alternia, and sent them to both sides of the Scratch. He used post-Scratch Alternia as his ectobiology source (we assume, since he didn't have any way of seeing pre-Scratch Alternia).

Therefore, blackrom is a critical part of troll biology, and was on both sides of the Scratch. Otherwise, the trolls who were sent back to the Scratch would have been built wrong.

It'd be likely for trolls to be left unable to reproduce naturally, if incestuous slurry is literal then there is likely a degree of inbreeding, which would cause a genetic shift towards insanity, instability and infertility. I am still unconvinced blackrom is a critical part of troll biology, mainly because it makes the whole thing too complicated. Unless they produce different genetic material from the two kinds of romance, blackrom is a vestigial social construct.
@Draconi: you are looking at this wrong, the bifurcation meteors IDE is wrong. The truth is that a scratched session merely has the destination of its meteors changed, that's the only difference. The glitch is the players were never born. They did play but the stable time loop, ectobiological session birthing them never occured.

[Draconi Redfir]

No it doesn't. All troll hatred is non-platonic. As much as liking a person can become "Love" hating a person can become Kissmetistududup-wekucqjsybdkj. Its just hate with sexual attraction slapped on.



Hate is still hate. Slapping on sexual attraction does not make hate any less of hate. If it does not sting, burn, and cause pain and suffering, it is not in fact hate.



Completely irrelevant. In Situation A not all hate ends with death. More likely they just avoid each other.

Situation B ENCOURAGES hate. A hateful person is not just harmful to himself but others.



Then they hate each other for years slowly poisoning each others lives and the lives of all those around them causing more hate.

i think you misunderstand Kissmissitude. its difficult, but eventually picture the love of your life and your best friend.


Not imagine that you hate them.

The love of your life you still "love", but it's hate-biased rather then love biased. You hate their guts and want to see them suffer, but if someone comes along and kills them, then you’re sure as heck going to get revenge on them.

Your best friend however you hate with a more platonic passion, you don't want to see them suffer, you want them /DEAD/ you could care less if someone killed them, they would have done you a favour.

you and the love of your life might get into physical fights, but most of them would be a scratch here, a bruise there, bitemarks here, and then hatemakeouts.

But a fight with your best friend (Worst enemy for this example) would involve legitimately trying to kill one another, with attacks at vital areas and attempting to snap the others neck.

[Calemyr]

What I find odd is that I think Alternia and Earth exist in the same universe, with Post-Scratch trolls crafting the Pre-Scratch universe and the Pre-Scratch kids crafting the Post-Scratch universe.

Why? Our Imperial Condesce. She was able to travel to the Alternia to populate her ark, then come to Earth. Her ship has FTL, we know, but not a universe-jumping power that we know of. So either we have her bouncing back into paradox space via the meteor portals (possible) or a Genesis Double Reach Around.

[irenicObserver]

yes they hate eachother, and at the same time still lust for eachother, but that does not mean it is a blackrom relaitionship, as a true blackrom romance would want to ensure the survival of the other, even if it results crossing into matespirit or other territory.

No. All quadrants must be filled. This includes auspitices that prevent vacillation and kismesii killing each other Palemates that keep each other stable. They are a perfect examply of blackrom but without an Auspistice they ended up going too far.

The main reason it is so hard to convince me blackrom is natural is that it is far too complicate to develop by nature, it is mostly a social construct. The whole system of intercourse does not change much for it.

@^^:Well, duh blackrom does that, it is colloquially known as "fated nemesis" basically, your "One True Rival". It's still hate but kind of muddys the line between Foe Yay and TheOnlyOneAllowedToDefeatYou.

yes i potholed tvtropes.

[Scowling Dragon]

The love of your life you still "love", but it's hate-biased rather then love biased.

Hate HURTS.

You hate their guts and want to see them suffer, but if someone comes along and kills them, then you’re sure as heck going to get revenge on them.

And? HATE HURTS

This does not make sense as a natural system.

This goes back to basic mating:

"I see this guy has muscles. I like muscles. Therefore I want to mate with him".

This is:

"I hate that wimp. But now Im biologically forced to be with him. Now I hate him even more. Now Im suffereing and he is suffering. And now Im taking out my suffering onto others"

But this would only make sense to breed agression and rage. And would make perfect sense if it was either biologicaly or Psychologicaly enforced onto trolls to ensure that they remain hateful.

[irenicObserver]

What I find odd is that I think Alternia and Earth exist in the same universe, with Post-Scratch trolls crafting the Pre-Scratch universe and the Pre-Scratch kids crafting the Post-Scratch universe.

Why? Our Imperial Condesce. She was able to travel to the Alternia to populate her ark, then come to Earth. Her ship has FTL, we know, but not a universe-jumping power that we know of. So either we have her bouncing back into paradox space via the meteor portals (possible) or a Genesis Double Reach Around.

Um, what? There's no universe jumping required, she simply went through Paradox Space.

[Gez]

Given that the whole deal with the matriorb and stuff is that all the genetic material of all the trolls, all of them, is combined together, the whole deal with black and red romance is purely societal cruft. There are imperial drones out there wanting you to fill a couple of buckets. Then the two buckets are emptied together in the same receptacle anyway, so it could very well have been a single bucket the whole time.

The idea behind these black and red romance is that strong bonds between two people -- be they bonds of hatred or love -- make certain genetic combinations more likely. That's why the troll players are so close to their ancestors. Not perfectly identical clones, but close. Aranea is like 95% Vriska, and vrice-verska.

Anyway, the whole deal about a biological imperative for love and hate both is kinda moot. The purely biological imperative would be to just go to the broodmother's slurry pool and discharge the relevant genetic material there directly. No intermediary. The overcomplicated romance and drones and quadrants and all that mess is just troll society being what it is. Like, it would probably be considered rude to just go and do one's business in public like that, so they use the bucket in the privacy of their home and empty the bucket afterwards. Then to prevent everybody moving to the brooding caverns, there are drones who collect and transport. it might then have been discovered that mingling material before tossing it in the communal slurry yielded greater chances of having a wriggler with the traits of the parents. And finally, her Imperial Condescension, in her quest to make trolls more aggressive, might have instituted the deal about forcing trolls to seek both a "matesprit" and a "kismesis", so that they'd feel extreme emotions and breed offsprings who would also feel such extreme emotions.

That doesn't make it a biological necessity.

[Squark]

I think it's safe to say that kismesitude probably did not look the way it does on Alternia that it did on the Pre-scratch Troll world. What it did look like, we really don't know, and I don't think two brief glances at two Pre-scrath Trolls, both of whom were social outcasts, are going to give us enough information for proper speculation. So we can argue until we're bl00 in the face, but it we simply don't have the evidence to convince anyone.


Auspiticing probably looked pretty much the same way, albeit perhaps the mediator didn't have to keep the other two from trying to claw each others eyes out as frequently as they do now.

[Calemyr]

Um, what? There's no universe jumping required, she simply went through Paradox Space.

How? I was under the impression that Paradox Space was outside of traditional space and time, that it was the literal breeding ground for space and time in fact.

How does traditional FTL (even psychic boosted FTL, which she no longer has) get you into Paradox Space and back out the other side into an entirely different universe?

[Fayd]

Well, let us not forget that the Condesce is now Lord English's agent. Meaning she has some power (that we can visibly see around her trident, by the way) that may include time/space travel. She may just fly her ship to where a portal was/will be at some point, time travels to the time the portal is there, and bam. In the Medium again.

Also, a friend of mine who is a biologist explains her theory on what troll romance is and means from an evolutionary biology perspective here

[Scowling Dragon]

Your friends argument is interesting, but has allot of holes not taking into account some things but whatever.

Saying "Im a biologist" means nothing on the internet unfortunately. So try to avoid announcing it.

[Draconi Redfir]

Hate HURTS.



And? HATE HURTS

And? To trolls this is a good thing. Even to some humans.

Look up Sadism and Masochism sometime.

This does not make sense as a natural system.

This goes back to basic mating:

"I see this guy has muscles. I like muscles. Therefore I want to mate with him".

This is:

"I hate that wimp. But now Im biologically forced to be with him. Now I hate him even more. Now Im suffereing and he is suffering. And now Im taking out my suffering onto others"

I think it would go more along the lines of

"I hate this wimp, i want to hurt him, therefore i want to mate with him in as painful a way possible."

[Androgeus]

Aranea is like 95% Vriska, and vrice-verska.

I see what you did there

[Scowling Dragon]

And? To trolls this is a good thing. Even to some humans.

Then it isn't hate. Hate DESTROYS. It isn't this sort of happy wappy bull**** fanfic thing thats played for laughs. I think many people don't understand the gravity of a relationship based on hate. Many people don't understand the gravity of hate. They just view it as this hat that you dress up with fancy stuff and call silly names.

Look up Sadism and Masochism sometime.

Both are mental illnesses. None are based on hate. Those are based on either causing pain to others, or physical pain to themselves. None are based on hate.

"I hate this wimp, i want to hurt him, therefore i want to mate with him in as painful a way possible."

Nothing has changed. You still suffer, he still suffers. You suffer, you take out your anger and suffering on him and on others.

[Draconi Redfir]

Then it isn't hate. Hate DESTROYS. It isn't this sort of happy wappy bull**** fanfic thing thats played for laughs. I think many people don't understand the gravity of a relationship based on hate. Many people don't understand the gravity of hate. They just view it as this hat that you dress up with fancy stuff and call silly names.

Both are mental illnesses. None are based on hate. Those are based on either causing pain to others, or physical pain to themselves. None are based on hate.

Nothing has changed. You still suffer, he still suffers. You suffer, you take out your anger and suffering on him and on others.

You are putting human responses into an alien species. This is an alien species that has not one but TWO romances dedicated to hatered. Would you get into a romance you didn't like? no? Then if these aliens are getting into a romance YOU wouldn't like, then clearly they have a different opinion on it.

And i would like to point out that hate does in fact create in their culture. they use it to produce offspring.