OOTS #830 - The Discussion Thread

[Moonshadow]

Not only is Redcloak right about the nature of the undead, but also the fact that he had the final word with her, the fact that he used her creations against her, the fact that she was proven wrong in this act, and that she deserved what happened to her, makes this the greatest strip in a long history of great comic strips.

Redcloak may have upgraded himself to the position of BBEG, with Xykon as his dragon.
Now who's the bitch?

Also, the last panel is missing something. It starts with "S" and ends with "oul Bind."

I like how you copied 2 posts word for word :V

On topic though, I have but one word to say.

Bueno~

[Aricandor]

I really liked the wights' response at the end for some reason. I'll attribute it to Rich's marvellous ability to drive points home with the most subtle of lines and actions. Tools and weapons indeed...

[SamBurke]

Tsuikio's just... dead?

Nah. Nah.

Her face is off panel. She can't just be dead....


I'm not even a Tsuikio supporter, and I want her back. Maybe she sees the error of her ways... or even does something on the lower planes? She'll be back.

[Rad]

That.. that was... wow...

I'm really happy that Redcloak is getting stronger as a villain. This is the first scene in a while where the fact that he and Xykon are not on the same of the nine sides of the conflict here, which is also great.
The end of book 5 is near...

[Mantine]

Masterpiece strip.
Lenght, quality, dialogues, impact to the story, badassery, d&d usage and so on and so forth.

[Ossian]

Badassery indeed! Loved it.

Also, this should be the right place to ask. Must have been asked already 50 times, sorry about that. Isn t Control Undead a Wiz/Sor (7) spell? Redcloak is a cleric, although a powerful one.

Also, why is Control Undead NOT a cleric spell too? That seems like a design flaw...

O.

[Themrys]

Sure but at the moment he distrusts RC's capacity and there must have been a reason, why he gave Tsukiko his part of the spell. Now she is dead and with her X's only possibility for a second opinion.

RC isn't critical either...the Crimson Mantle is the real deal and a few hundred strips ago, X has suggested to give it to Jirix. RC's only real worth for X has been his brothercide, which worked as a symbol of trust, and, maybe, their common "adventures".

And Xykon could know that Tsukiko is/was in love with him, which makes her more trustworthy than RC.

Killing Tsukiko won't make Redcloak more trustworthy. I doubt he'll get away with that. Even though he can explain it with her breaking into his room, Xykon will want to know why she broke in and what she found there.

[Cranica]

Badassery indeed! Loved it.

Also, this should be the right place to ask. Must have been asked already 50 times, sorry about that. Isn t Control Undead a Wiz/Sor (7) spell? Redcloak is a cleric, although a powerful one.

Also, why is Control Undead NOT a cleric spell too? That seems like a design flaw...

O.

As described a few times in the thread so far, Redcloak is using his Rebuke Undead class feature to control undead with less than half his HD.

[Necromancy]

Shout would alert half the city, it's not always about the dice rolls people.

Also do not forget RCs true core of belief in the betterment of goblin life. Tsukiko was a coward and an enemy of the goblin people. She deserved a cowards death at the hands of her own (goblin) wights.

[Palthera]

Badassery indeed! Loved it.

Also, this should be the right place to ask. Must have been asked already 50 times, sorry about that. Isn t Control Undead a Wiz/Sor (7) spell? Redcloak is a cleric, although a powerful one.

Also, why is Control Undead NOT a cleric spell too? That seems like a design flaw...

O.

(From SRD)
Evil Clerics and Undead

Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.

EDIT: Ninja'd lots

[Tundar]

My imagination just... cringes. Nothing like letting you place the off-camera details yourself...

Well played. Well played.

I'll second that.
Placing nasty images in our heads without painting them for us is a rare gift that only few people have. The Giant (and Belkar) knows how to do that, for sure.

[Grim Reader]

I think Tsukiko has high Wis and Int...and is insane. She has a necrophilia insanity, its not just a sexuality its a compulsion, same with Durkon's arboreaphobia (thats probably not that word i just like how it sounds).

Dendrophobia,

She was smart enough to keep Haley on the back foot, remember it was their "Round 4". She figured out the intricacies of the ritual and even came to the correct conclusion that RC was hiding something instead of him being unaware.

All intelligence.

Tsukiko is a wizard and a cleric so at least 15-16 Int and Wis with the spells she casts. She is just also very crazy

Do we specifically know shes a Cleric? My original point was that she seems to fit much better as a Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge. An Int-dependent build that often dumps Wis due to having no need of it.

See, if it was only the undead thing, I'd agree with you. But its not just that.

Tsukiko was reckless, basically letting Redcloak know she was going to tell Xykon. Letting a Cleric capable of casting 9th level spells know you're going to rat him out terminally. On his home ground.

She failed to prepare for the simplest contingencies. The fact that an Evil Cleric has options for dealing with undead doesn't even seem to have crossed her mind.

Shrotsighted, impulsive...shes constantly demonstrated the entire specter of low-wisdom characteristics.

[LtPowers]

She honestly thought Redcloak would just let her tell Xykon something that would get him killed? I can't even fathom why anyone would be so daft...

Remember, she thought Redcloak was scared of Xykon, and that Xykon liked her better. Yes, she was deluded, but Redcloak encouraged that perception (remember how he backed down when she wanted to cast Create Undead on some dead hobgoblins?). She was a little nuts, but her mistake wasn't stupidity, just naivety.

That said, this is a tragic end for her, in the classical sense. I hate to see someone motivated by love meet an end like that. Yes, she was evil and horribly necrophiliac, but at least she was motivated by a positive emotion.


Powers &8^]

[Blaznak]

WOW! Talk about a real scorched earth policy. Whoa!
but how fat would that last guy be? I mean he's eaten a witch and three others. Can he even FIT into the fireplace? Zany undead... ;)

Really freaking awesome strip, by the way!

[Burner28]

Oh no! That is just..

[silvadel]

Divination -- Who killed Tsukiko -- "Tsukiko was killed by her own wights" -- so that gives an additional cover to whatever story RC spins. Plus I expect him to have a phither.

If she took redcloak seriously (she didnt -- her fault) she might have had a contingency teleport set up for this occasion... Too bad.

That her babies would ever attack her was just completely out of her frame of reference. Right to the end she thought they would listen to reason over compulsion.

Oh -- and he didnt tell the last wight to kill himself -- he told him to stand in the fireplace and set himself on fire.

[SaintRidley]

Do we specifically know shes a Cleric? My original point was that she seems to fit much better as a Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge. An Int-dependent build that often dumps Wis due to having no need of it.

Archivist bonus spell slots are Wisdom dependent. Just pointing that out.

[Kurald Galain]

She failed to prepare for the simplest contingencies. The fact that an Evil Cleric has options for dealing with undead doesn't even seem to have crossed her mind.

Which is funny because Tsuki is an Evil Cleric herself.

I think her contingency plan was "my beloved wights and lich will protect me". Yeah, we've just seen how well that turned out...

[Kobold-Bard]

Divination -- Who killed Tsukiko -- "Tsukiko was killed by her own wights" -- so that gives an additional cover to whatever story RC spins. Plus I expect him to have a phither.

If she took redcloak seriously (she didnt -- her fault) she might have had a contingency teleport set up for this occasion... Too bad.

That her babies would ever attack her was just completely out of her frame of reference. Right to the end she thought they would listen to reason over compulsion.

Oh -- and he didnt tell the last wight to kill himself -- he told him to stand in the fireplace and set himself on fire.

She did try to teleport but the room was dimension locked according to Redcloak.

[darkelf]

holy cats. that was flippin awesome. go team redcloak!

[Chad30]

wow. That was kind of dark. I liked Tuski as a villain, but I guess she was bound to go down sooner or later. I do like Red better, so I'm glad it was her instead of him. Poor deluded Tsuki.

[g051051]

Awww. I really liked Tsukiko. She was always good for a chuckle, and deep down I was hoping for a Tsukiko/Sabine/Crystal team up to go after Haley. Or at least one last throw-down with Haley. I'll definitely miss her and her creepy, crazy ways.

[Taelas]

Archivist bonus spell slots are Wisdom dependent. Just pointing that out.

While true, bonus spells are minor compared to everything else. (It also screams 'error' to me, given that everything else regarding archivist casting relies on Int, but unfortunately, as HoH has no errata, that is not a question we'll have an answer to.)

[Wanda V'Orcus]

Well, can't say we didn't all see that coming! But just the same... [shudder]

BTW, I share the opinion of others that Redcloak is severely self-deluded if he thinks he's entirely controlling Xykon.

I would describe Xykon as a "tool" (but not to his "face," mind! ) -- just not in the sense that Redcloak means...

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

[Shhalahr Windrider]

My guess is that any material consumed by a wight is entirely converted to undeath-sustaining negative energy within a matter of rounds of consumption. 99.9% efficient digestion, as it were.

[SteveDJ]

Unable to read entire thread, but early on people noticed that in strip 828 he did indeed cast something silently, which appears now to have been the Control Undead (or similar).

But, he in fact cast TWO spells silently upon entering the room in strip 828 (frames 4 and 6).

So, what is the second one?

[Morty]

I don't think this strip says anything about Tsukiko's Wisdom score. After all, people with high values in mental abilities can still do and believe very, very stupid things. Just look at Vaarsuvius... or Redcloak, for that matter.

[GamingBuddha]

Wow, Haley is a Profitess, err Prophetess.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html

Meh, Demons, Wights, close enough.

[Nilan8888]

A well put-together series of comics, and a goodbye to Tsukiko.

It puzzles me though to think about what the purpose of Tsukiko and the resistance has been. It seems the purpose of this arc has been primarily to beef up Redcloak and indicate what he is capable of.

This comic seems brutal, but it's not as cold as it seems: RedCloak watches Tsukiko get drained, but he doesn't stick around to see her get eaten. She is someone he hated, but he doesn't seem to really enjoy watching her die. There's no grin on his face.

Contrast that with just a comic or two ago when he thanked the Dark One that his loyal Hobby spy was already killed so that he didn't have to turn around and execute him. THAT was cold. Tsukiko at least was, in his view, a selfish and ignorant fool.

This arc has seen a lot of action. I was sorry to see the elven commander go because I thought he could have been used to good effect on the moral decisions to work with someone that is evil but not a card-carrying member of evil when it is convenient, so to speak (I'm not sure we get that out of Belkar because he seems to be around despite being inconvenient a lot of the time). But I suppose Rich can always conjure up some other sort of character to fill that void if he wants to look at that question.

This seemed a bit early for Tsukiko to die since, I think, it would have been most satisfying to see Tsukiko die at Xykon's hands, but this is the next best thing and that sort of turn wouldn't have been ready for some time yet.

One of the key questions Rich seems to be raising is: who is really in control? Is RedCloak deluding himself that he is Xykon's slave or is Xykon largely duped by RedCloak?

The answer, it seems to me, might be best characterized by Tarquin's thoughts in "Plotting Something" in what he says to Elan, which was one of the best strips Rich ever produced. Tarquin would say that, I think, RedCloak is a slave of Xykon's who only snaps himself out of servitude when it is absolutely necessary. When RedCloak finally turns on Xykon -- if that moment even ever happens -- it will only be after over 30+ years of being Xykon's go-to. If you've let Xykon feel like he's boss for 30+ years and let yourself endure every sort of humiliation to keep up appearances... well then really, what's the difference? When you get your final victory -- IF you get it -- Xykon will still have spent many decades living large.

At it's not like Xykon's not showing indications that he thinks RedCloak's all above board anyway. He knows something is up: he just doesn't know what.

[SaintRidley]

While true, bonus spells are minor compared to everything else. (It also screams 'error' to me, given that everything else regarding archivist casting relies on Int, but unfortunately, as HoH has no errata, that is not a question we'll have an answer to.)

Doesn't scream error to me. Seems more like a small and ultimately negligible attempt to try and introduce some balance to a primary caster by giving it a second stat to key something relatively desirable off of. Kind of like Warmage with its Edge ability (another failure).