OOTS #830 - The Discussion Thread

[otakuryoga]

wow...truly badass episode for Redcloak

[TheCountAlucard]

Very dark, exactly the sort of thing someone from Team Evil would do, of course.

Just shows how smart Redcloak really is, though.

[Yaminsoul]

Its been while, but this one inspired me to post.

Something which I love about this comic, as a literature student, is that many times it works on several levels. True there is the obvious awesome here, of the sudden reversal and the death by that which you love, but there are also some other implications here I enjoy a great deal.

One of them, which I don't think has been mentioned, is that Redcloak's speech, in the context of the D and D world (with 3.5 rules) is somewhat problematic: Living creatures are just 'bags of bones and skins and positive energy" and while not glued together by magic, can, with sufficient magic, be controlled and turned against their family and friends. The dominate spells, even suggestion, allow magic users to control the actions of living, and while saving throws and natural inclinations play some role, most creatures, living or dead, may become puppets to those powerful enough to cast certain spells. Any creature may become "just a tool." Its one of the things that makes D and D (3.5 rules) a bit disturbing if one things about.

Another level which I love, which has been referenced in this thread, is Redcloak's hypocrisy. As clearly laid out in SoD, as well as more obliquely in the rest of the comic, he considers himself little more than a tool for his god's plan. Whether this is him or the mantle (or some combination which I think makes the most sense in story context) makes little difference, as Redcloak, more than any other character, has little more than a tool, who has subsumed everything else to this role, really.

Anyway, just wanted to post and say how much I enjoyed this comic from many different levels.

PS: I agree about the mirror, though its actually pretty hard for a sorcerer, even an Epic one, to get back someone whose corpse is gone, in 3.5 rules. Thus this puts Xylon in a bit of a bind, as he needs a divine caster of sufficient power and loyalty if he is going to pervert the ritual to do what HE wants it to do, which would be consistent with his characterization. I suppose he could blackmail Redcloak with killing Hobo's, or just kill him and replace him with Jirnax...but this seems unlikely to me somehow...

[Gamgee]

You know, even if Xykon finds out about this. I can't honestly see him caring too much, hell he might even congratulate Redcloak for being so decisive and ruthless. And the cherry on top being lighting minions on fire. Though subtract some points for no soul binding.

Though he would definitely be concerned about the true nature of the gate, I think he would go with it. One way or the other, he will get an attempt to extort, control, or destroy the gods. That's a once in an eternity opportunity there.

[Kish]

Do we specifically know shes a Cleric?

Sure sounds like it.

Shrotsighted, impulsive...shes constantly demonstrated the entire specter of low-wisdom characteristics.

Guessing you mean "spectrum," thrilled as Tsukiko would have been to be able to raise undead as powerful as spectres rather than just wights and ghasts (even low-Wisdom spectres).

[Redgoblin]

Having looked over the comments on this update I have three questions for the forum.

#1. Why are people saying Redcloak is stupid for explaining everything to Tsukiko? If Xykon manages to speak her after she is dead, "I accused him of lying about the purpose of the ritual and he attacked me" is just as bad for Redcloak as, "He said the ritual won't help you at all."

#2. While Redcloak can cast the wish or true resurrection to raise her, how can Xykon know he that?

#3. Is there any chance that the ring Redcloak looted could protect him from Xykon's energy drain? If so that would have a large impact on any fight between them.

[Doug Lampert]

When a rebuke is used for control, it is called commanding the undead. Add to that the fact that the spell is an arcane spell and would not necessarily allow Redcloak to order them to destroy themselves, I think it's safe to say he was using the cleric ability.

Command Undead is (a) single target, (b) not on the cleric list, and (c) requires that Redcloak have a previously unrevealed Silent Spell.

So basically it requires that Redcloak have spent one feat or other special to have the spell, and a second feat to have silent spells, and that he prepared the combination.

Using Rebuke Undead is called "Command Undead" when used to command, is a cleric core ability and against bog standard unbolstered undead would work.

All we're missing then is that the rebuking looked like a spell rather than a turn attempt. But that's an art choice.

[silvadel]

She did try to teleport but the room was dimension locked according to Redcloak.

She tried a cast teleport... Which was her only spell attempt at full levels before being drained to low level spells. If contingency teleport had failed then she would have had an important extra round.

[Kato]

Well... that was gruesome. Poor Tsukiko? As much as I disliked her that was quite a harsh way for Redcloak to finish her off...

[MelTorefas]

Amazing update.

Couple thoughts about Tsukiko's Wisdom score.

First, I don't believe the Wisdom ability score actually covers things like insight into the true nature of other creature types, or the long term consequences of your social interactions. The rules state that Wisdom covers "willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores). None of those things sound like they cover the sort of long term deep insights Tsukiko was so lacking in.

Secondly, I am pretty Tsukiko was quite young. Her age sticks in my head as being 17, but I am not sure what that is based on. Still, if she was a teenager or very young adult (as seems likely), her irrational/emotional behavior, underdeveloped social ability, and poor judgement and planing would all have a sound biological basis (assuming OotS humans mature biologically like real world humans). And I am not familiar with any rule that applies Wisdom score penalties to teenagers, so again, this seems like it would be beyond the scope of the stat and into the realm of roleplaying (where I think most things related to being wise or foolish actually do belong).

Of course, I may be wrong and there may be a rule somewhere that expressly contradicts the stuff I've said. But I've never run across it, and this is how I have handled Wisdom (score) vs. wisdom (choices/actions) since 2nd edition.

Interesting posts and ideas in here though, either way.

[Takver]

Quick argument against Xykon "dancing" on Redcloak's "puppet strings":

After his epiphany in the battle for Azure City, Redcloak now genuinely cares about the hobgoblins and Gobbotopia. They're dear to his heart. But it's very clear that if Xykon chose to slaughter them all on a whim then Redcloak would not be able to stop him. He COULD rationalize it as a strategic concession he would choose to make for the sake of the plan, but really, how much do you have to lose before you realize you don't hold any of the cards?

IF Redcloak's plan works in the end, THEN he will have pulled one over on Xykon, and it'll be a doozy, but until then, he only wishes he were the Man Behind the Man.

[Ksyr]

Awesome. A fitting end for someone like her.

Whats this about the mirror? Won't the cloister spell preventing scrying or did I miss the point?

[toughluck]

As for Xykon - I think the conversation between Redcloak and Xykon will go something like this:

X: Where's Tsukiko?
R: I killed her. She was plotting against me and it was getting annoying. I took control of her wights and they drained and ate her.
X: Ooh - nice touch.

I honestly don't really see why Xykon would care about Tsukiko.

I'll go further than that:
R: Tsukiko's dead.
X: Who's Tsukiko?
R: The pigtail chick.
X: Oooh, she was fun. And the wights?
R: Devoured her, then devoured each other.
X: THAT HAD TO BE FUN! DID YOU RECORD IT ON TEEVO?

Caution: Spoilered Squick. If you click the spoiler tags, don't complain.

Spoiler

Show

Then there's another possibility for RC to say Tsukiko wanted one of the wights to do something that involves taking a bite too much when eating out and I'm not talking about a fancy restaurant.

The strip also says something about her concept of 'high-end' undead -- there's no way for them to be a match for a well-prepared cleric.

Redcloak had better trap her soul or else Xykon may find a way to ferret out the truth later.

People are finding it way too simple to just cast raise dead. First of all, her body's no longer intact, so a True Resurrection would be needed. As far as Xykon knows, RC doesn't have access to 9th level spells, and this means Xykon won't bother to look it up for anyone.
Either way, Raise Dead is out of the question here.

Also, who is the old guy who got murdered? Close enough to Redcloak to Raise him I wonder?

Doesn't matter. 5000 gp diamonds aren't exactly common as mud.

EDIT also, Redcloak, I am disapppointed, you launched into a whole Evil Monologue Plan Explanation totally unnecessarily when you could have just said "no, I'm not going to tell you, seize her." I thought you were smarter than that !

He didn't care. He wanted her to realize just how little she matters and how easily she was fooled before being killed. He knew she had no chance of winning this and there's no chance for her to spill the beans now.

[warmachine]

One of the problems with the Wights eating each other is the last Wight will contain the mass of all the others plus Tsukiko. One whole body won't fit in a stomach, let alone four.

But that won't stop them trying. Enchantment spells have rules that the victim can make another save if the command is against his nature. No such rule exists for Control Undead ability. Redcloak is going to return and find a dead Wight with its burst innards all over the floor.

[Holy_Knight]

Yes.

Now THAT was a fitting end for Tsukiko.

[Kish]

All we're missing then is that the rebuking looked like a spell rather than a turn attempt. But that's an art choice.

The rebuking didn't look like anything. He just gave the wights an order and they obeyed it.

[Spacewolf]

Hopefully Teevo doesnt record most karmic villain deaths for xykon

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Sweet frakkin' mama bullfrogs...THAT WAS ASTOUNDING. Redcloak gains a level in Magnificent Bastard. At least one.

[CarinTrenos]

In my opinion there are too many readers who mistakes X's ignorance with foolishness.

Xykon ignores details but he owns a special ability to "feel" the big picture and, as the last conversation of SOD proves, he is playing with the fact that other persons underestimate his intelligence. It's possible that X is going to laugh about the "necrophile girl gets eaten by zombies"-thing - but he is quite suspicious as well.

Let's see what the evil lich has done during his holidays....

[The Pink Ninja]

Red Cloak continues to amazingly awesome

Best character in the comic

[Bleak Ink]

*sits in awed silence*

Red Cloak continues to amazingly awesome

Best character in the comic

*nods*

[Thuran]

Hmm, while I did expect you to wait with killing her, maybe have her decide that she wanted in on the plot against Xykon to gain more power, it makes more sense for her not to, considering how she has been overly stupid and arrogant in the past. Really felt sweet to see how she went from being the one on top of the situation to realize that she was about to die and powerless to do anything about it, awesome, and gruesome death.

Another good example of why I love team villain, and definetly puts redcloak in the bigger leagues, although knowing Xykon he probably already knows that Redcloak thinks he is in charge (remember how Redcloak completely underestimated him in the backstory of the villains?) and i wouldn't be suprised if it turns out Redcloak is still the puppet of the show. That said, having Redcloak turn into the BBEG at the very end would also be wonderfully poetic as it would still have been a lowly goblin whose race more or less gets butchered for sport, making it into the big leagues and surpassing even a lich in villany.

And there is always the question of who will kill Redcloak, since he doesn't have a natural mirror in the heroes team. Although I can also see him having a change of heart at the very last moment and end up dying saving the world instead. Which would also accomplish his goal of goblins getting some form of recognition.

[Nerocite]

This comic made my day. Thanks Giant!

[silvadel]

Could you cast a point blank fireball while grappled? The only somatic component to it is you have to point where it is going to go off -- but if you DONT CARE where it goes off... range 0... It doesnt matter in what direction you are pointing.

And yes the list of no-somatic spells is exceedingly short.

[SliderDaFeral]

I don't know if anyone's said this or not (as I really don't feel like sifting through 11 pages worth of commentary to find it), so if it's appeared before, I apologize in advance.

"When you play the game of bones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground."

[mantisknight55]

that was awesome. I knew i liked red clock for some reason

[Jubal_Barca]

My guess is that any material consumed by a wight is entirely converted to undeath-sustaining negative energy within a matter of rounds of consumption. 99.9% efficient digestion, as it were.

This could revolutionise the recycling industry.

[Yaminsoul]

@ RedGoblin

1) Its more that if Xylon learns of what Redcloak said (either by listening in or contacting Tsukiko's shade) now he can KNOW exactly what Redcloak is planning, rather then just have an idea that Redcloak is disloyal or hidding something (which he he always had a suspicion of...)

2) Err, if you asking is he knows whether Red could cast 9th level spells, that is a fair point, though really, at the level we are talking about, even if Red could only cast 8th level spells normally, he could find a way to cast a 9th level one (scrolls, items, ect...) More on this would get too much into D and D mechanics. Wish is sorc/wizard spell, so presumable Xylon could cast it....though it does not allow true res, as per normal rules (though Rich could make an exception)

If the question is what does Xylon know about cleric abilities, generally it seems Rich has the "I have been hanging out with you for 30 years, I have general idea what spells you can use" thing be enough.

3) If the ring prevents energy drain that would be nice, but Red could just cast the spell anyway (its a cleric spell called death ward.) Suppose it would be good if Xylon went first and/or sneak attacked him, but Red seems too smart of it. (If I were playing a character like Red, since the spells last 10 mins a level, and its only 4th level, I would have it on pretty much constantly while hanging out with Xylon, but that's just because I am paranoid 3.5 player)

As to Tsukiko, I am most remanded of V here, when he gained 'ultimate power' and it went right to his head (and a Dragon's....but I digress). A theme in this comic has always been 'those who think they have power over another tend to become arrogant and die.) Even if Tsukiko has high wisdom and/or int stats, she also believed she had power over Red, and thus felt free to abuse him and share her fantasies with him. And yes, I agree she is also crazy, though I think Rich is playing with the whole "teenage rebellion/inversion theme" taken to its logical, though horrific end point.

[DreadPirateDB]

I was going to ask why Tsukiko didn't Control Undead herself, which, as a supernatural ability, doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity or require concentration. A Mystic Theurge will most likely have Cleric levels. However, Mystic Theurge levels don't stack with Cleric and she's probably only got Cleric 3. Wights are 4 Hit Dice, meaning she must make a 13+ on a Charisma check. Worse, Redcloak may have Bolstered them as well, making their effective Hit Dice for Control/Rebuke/Turn effects around his level, making the counter Control attempt effectively impossible.

Redcloak thought of this on the spot? Even I had to look up those rules. I even forgot that undead can be controlled or subverted so easily. Redcloak is dangerous. Never give Redcloak even a moment to think or he'll blindside you with obscure effects right out of the core ruleset. Don't gloat, just attack immediately!

Ah, the Bolster command must have been the second spell he cast in #828. It was game over two rounds after he walked into the study, just that Tsukiko didn't know it yet. Makes me wonder how many other times he's armed this and not needed to pull the trigger. Tsukiko was dead woman walking anytime she showed up with four or fewer wights since RC could pretty much automatically control that many with his rebuke ability.

[Zevox]

Well, that was gruesome. Appropriate, but gruesome.

Now, the big question is how Xykon reacts to this. There's still plenty of risk for Redcloak depending on how he takes it, although he's certainly right that there's far less risk to him killing Tsukiko than to her letting Xykon know that the ritual doesn't do what he thinks it does.

Zevox