OOTS #830 - The Discussion Thread

[The Succubus]

Tsikko like Thog before her has no X's why the ambiguity ? We got nice clear xX's when Roy died.

In fairness, "crunch, crunch, crunch" seems pretty unambiguous to me.

[Alchemistmerlin]

Maybe this will be enough to convince everyone that Redcloak is Lawful Evil, not Lawful Neutral. Damn but that was cold and beautiful.

Given that people were unwilling to admit miko was wrong after the gods actually cast her down and effectively shouted "YOU WERE WRONG" in her face...I doubt anyone will admit anything from this.

[Welf]

uh, that was a brutal way to die.

[luc258]

Tsikko like Thog before her has no X's why the ambiguity ? We got nice clear xX's when Roy died.

I don't see the ambiguity. She died off panel while being drained to death by her former wights.
The "crunch, crunch, crunch" should end any thoughts of her somehow surviving this.

[Grim Reader]

She had a minimum Wis of 15 to cast Flame Strike, so it wasn't that low.

Archivists are Int-based Divine casters. Not Wis. Which is the point I was trying to make, how she could have a serious casting stat and still have so abysmally low common sense, high self-delusion etc.

[Lord Raziere]

"All of you kill each other. Last wight in Seattle, set yourself on fire and hit the lights."

This was funny for purely the way Redcloak said all that…

and awesome to.

but wait…..so the rift will be teleported somewhere else, but in the rift is not the Snarl, its like another world or something, so when Redcloak teleports the Gate…..what will happen? hrmmm…..

[Agnostik]

Archivists are Int-based Divine casters. Not Wis. Which is the point I was trying to make, how she could have a serious casting stat and still have so abysmally low common sense, high self-delusion etc.

Yeah, her being an archivist makes more sense than cleric. I completely forgot about that class. Not to mention that Dark Knowledge ability suits her flavor-wise.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

My theory for how Redcloak explains her disappearance is to tell it like it is. It goes like:

RC: "She monologued her entire plan to take my place. Do successful villains monologue their plans? We don't need someone that dumb on our team, so I fired her."

X: "By fired you mean?"

RC: "I made her own wights eat her."

X: " Nice."

[RMS Oceanic]

I don't think delusion or misconception are things dictated solely by your stats. Even the wisest person in the world can be hoodwinked by someone who got lucky.

[unzerpum]

I love the Machiavellian power play that is going on here. And I don't just mean Redcloak.

Consider: Xykon gave Tsukiko his half of the ritual to analyze, and didn't tell Redcloak he had done so. Why? Because Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak, and because he wants to be able to complete the ritual by himself. He's planning to turn on Redcloak as much as Redcloak is planning to turn on him. And now Redcloak knows it.

Xykon is smarter than he looks. If Redcloak keeps Tsukiko's fate to himself, Xykon may outwardly appear unconcerned, passing it off with a snarky comment... but inwardly he's going to be wondering what Tsukiko discovered, where the other half of the ritual is, and what Redcloak knows.

Can't wait to see how this plays out.

[Gholateg]

Oh, that went better then I thought it would. I've got the creepy crawlies in a good way. THAT'S how you work Evil. Right there. Cold, long plotting, and merciless. Not since Xy beat the crap out of V have we seen such a cold, methodical, breaking of a person and their beliefs.

It's the little touches, telling the last ghoul to burn himself in the fireplace so he doesn't torch the study, that he had controlled them as soon as he entered the room, but let them carry on as normal, (still letting them trash his study!) the "telling the truth to stun the idiot" ploy... Mm... Redcloak, I want to just give you evil snuggles and tea.

Edit: Oh, for the one who asked before: They're basically moving the holes in the jail, so the snarl can slip out his Evil Doodle Tentacles and strangle everything in sight. The Ritual isn't to *free* the snarl completely, they're just pointing it's windows at people they don't like.

[Takver]

I agree with everyone who says Redcloak is deluding himself. Xykon is not a pawn.

For some reason all I can think about is just how much chewing is required to eat the entirety of an adult body. Ugh, that's going to take forever.

Also so the only survivors of this little mini-arc are Redcloak and Niu. Resistance is gone, hobgoblin unit is gone, tsukiko and her wights are gone. That's a lot of death.

[pendell]

Wow.

W-o-w. Wow.

I knew Wrong-Eye had to dispose of Tsukiko. And he did it in a clean and efficient way, using minimum power. Truly worthy of this strip's villain.

I should, however, note that I'm a little bit disappointed by Tsukiko's death. Not that it isn't appropriate, and not that it isn't plausible. No, it's just that -- I feel the character deserved more of a boss fight. A chance to go down in a blaze of glory. Being devoured by her own wights -- learning in a painful way that these creatures were not what she thought they were -- was poetic justice, but it still seems a little -- anti-climactic. That's the word I'm looking for. Tsukiko's death is an anti-climax.

I would like to also address the concept of "things are more violent/gruesome/terrifying if they happen off-panel" i.e. Raping Sue Dibny in Identity Crisis, 90% of the Film Jaws, and now the death of Tsukiko.

EXACTLY the point I made about implosion. Sometimes the more horrifying something is, the better it is left to the imagination. Explicitly portraying Tsukiko being turned into The Other White Meat would have been offensive, and it would also have been less effective. There's no way the Giant, in the context of stick figure art, could portray such a horrifying thing anywhere near as well as we can imagine it. So he merely suggests the thought to our minds, and we fill in the details ourselves. The resulting mental image is far more horrifying and effective than anything he could express directly with stick figure art.

Also, now those of us who read Start of Darkness can stop spoilering the exact things Wrong-eye has been with-holding from Xykon. Now it's been spelled out in the main comic. Hooray!


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grim Reader]

I don't think delusion or misconception are things dictated solely by your stats. Even the wisest person in the world can be hoodwinked by someone who got lucky.

That is true. Especially if it is something you really want to believe. But Tsukiko combines self-delusion with a severe lack of common sense, impulsivness etc. When the traits start to stack up like that it becomes more difficult to see how she can have the exceptional Wisdom required for the higher spells.

[AutomatedTeller]

This was a great comic. Tsukiko was one of my least favorite characters, so am happy to see her dead... but man. That's brutal. I felt sorry for her. And I never, ever thought I would feel that.

As for Xykon - I think the conversation between Redcloak and Xykon will go something like this:

X: Where's Tsukiko?
R: I killed her. She was plotting against me and it was getting annoying. I took control of her wights and they drained and ate her.
X: Ooh - nice touch.

I honestly don't really see why Xykon would care about Tsukiko.

[snikrept]

Redcloak had better trap her soul or else Xykon may find a way to ferret out the truth later.

Also, who is the old guy who got murdered? Close enough to Redcloak to Raise him I wonder?

EDIT also, Redcloak, I am disapppointed, you launched into a whole Evil Monologue Plan Explanation totally unnecessarily when you could have just said "no, I'm not going to tell you, seize her." I thought you were smarter than that !

[RMS Oceanic]

I thought Speak with/Create Undead requires (at least part of) a body, so Redcloak's orders to eat her, then each other, then burn the last one standing, thoroughly eliminates that possibility. The only way Xykon is communicating with her now is either Planar Shifting to whatever plane her soul is on, or forcing Redcloak to perform a True Resurrection.

As for Tsukiko's recklessness, remember that she's come out on top against Redcloak every time they clashed for a year. This would easily cultivate a false sense of security in what she can do and say against him, not figuring the danger she put herself in.

[rbetieh]

Fantastic strip, you most certainly do not mess with the Redcloak...

[Agnostik]

Besides, Mr. Burlew has a terrific ability to translate D&D stats into great characters and at the same time, their stats are usually apparent. I mean, it's obvious that V is highly intelligent, but somewhat lacking in wisdom (not as much as Tsukiko, but still), and that Durkon has probably the most common sense in the group (tree phobia aside), but he's not particularly sharp. This subtlety is one of the things I really like about the comic.

[RMS Oceanic]

I honestly don't really see why Xykon would care about Tsukiko.

The thing is - unless he left it lying around and she interpreted it as a secret sign to figure it out - Xykon did order her to figure out the ritual. He's going to ask about that sooner or later, and Redcloak will need an answer handy.

[ghoul-n]

...Finally.

[Kish]

Also, who is the old guy who got murdered? Close enough to Redcloak to Raise him I wonder?

I doubt it. If he was alive, he'd be someone who knows that the last place Tsukiko was seen was in Redcloak's private study. Redcloak's not one for relying on the loyalty of his subordinates to ensure their silence.

[KuH]

Durkon is a good example: high wisdom and irrational unwise tree phobia.

Tsukiko could be the same: irrational unwise love of undead plus unknown wisdom.

[warmachine]

I was going to ask why Tsukiko didn't Control Undead herself, which, as a supernatural ability, doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity or require concentration. A Mystic Theurge will most likely have Cleric levels. However, Mystic Theurge levels don't stack with Cleric and she's probably only got Cleric 3. Wights are 4 Hit Dice, meaning she must make a 13+ on a Charisma check. Worse, Redcloak may have Bolstered them as well, making their effective Hit Dice for Control/Rebuke/Turn effects around his level, making the counter Control attempt effectively impossible.

Redcloak thought of this on the spot? Even I had to look up those rules. I even forgot that undead can be controlled or subverted so easily. Redcloak is dangerous. Never give Redcloak even a moment to think or he'll blindside you with obscure effects right out of the core ruleset. Don't gloat, just attack immediately!

[SpaceBadger]

Wow! No time to read all comments, but I sure do appreciate the quick rate of new strips being posted - thanks, Giant! This story is cooking right along!

Nice to see the end of Tsukiko; never liked her anyway.

Redcloak really needs to put a few ranks in Bluff - panel 1 and 3 - or was he even trying? Maybe he had already decided to dispose of Tsukiko, so it didn't matter. But he did seem to be trying to put her off, at least until panel 3, when he seemed at a loss for words...

Dunno why he felt it necessary to detail so much to her before getting rid of her - necessary exposition for those who haven't read SoD, I guess, so that the webcomic is internally complete without needing reference to the prequels.

Good stuff!

[Bastian Weaver]

Oh, yeah. I loved every moment of it.
For me, Tsukiko is the embodiment of every player (especially the girl players) that go "Oh, I know everybody thinks that this character is a cruel monster, but why can't you all understand that all he/she needs is True Love, namely, me?!"
And that's exactly what should happen to such characters. Definitely. Using a powerful NPC to give her some taste of that very medicine.
You da man, Giant. You da man.

[The Glyphstone]

Fantastic. Horrifying.

[Pronounceable]

A fitting end.

[Kurald Galain]

Heh. I just realized what that Shout spell would have done had it not been counterspelled. It would have dealt some 17 points of damage to Redcloak, deafened him for a few rounds, and broke his mirror, save for half. Oh noes!

Sorry Tsuki, if that's the best backup plan you can come up with, then the High Priest of the Dark One is way out of your league.

[Circle of Life]

Heh. I just realized what that Shout spell would have done had it not been counterspelled. It would have dealt some 17 points of damage to Redcloak, deafened him for a few rounds, and broke his mirror, save for half. Oh noes!

Sorry Tsuki, if that's the best backup plan you can come up with, then the High Priest of the Dark One is way out of your league.

I imagine it was actually meant to kill the ghouls holding onto her, not drastically harm Redcloak.