OOTS #830 - The Discussion Thread

[Qwoter]

Wonderful.
I just hope this scene wouldn't influence the whole comic to have screen version someday.

[Gholateg]

Wow.

W-o-w. Wow.

I knew Wrong-Eye had to dispose of Tsukiko. And he did it in a clean and efficient way, using minimum power. Truly worthy of this strip's villain.

I should, however, note that I'm a little bit disappointed by Tsukiko's death. Not that it isn't appropriate, and not that it isn't plausible. No, it's just that -- I feel the character deserved more of a boss fight. A chance to go down in a blaze of glory. Being devoured by her own wights -- learning in a painful way that these creatures were not what she thought they were -- was poetic justice, but it still seems a little -- anti-climactic. That's the word I'm looking for. Tsukiko's death is an anti-climax.

I have to respectfully disagree. I mean, yes she's had/has a fanbase, and she's had little moments here and there, but she was basically there as a foil for RC. How much of her would he put up with, how close is she getting to replacing him as Xy's main caster minion, and so on.
She was the typical "Evil because evil is cool" staff chick, who never fully grasped just what Evil means. Having her in some sort of knock down, drag out caster battle would honestly cheapen Redcloak as a villain, that he let this bubble gum snapping, lich-posters-on-her-wall perky goth break his carefully controlled demeanor. He would not have lowered himself to an actual fight with some bone-humping twit in a mini skirt.

Spoiler

Show

Redcloak is playing the long game, he's far seeing, and he KNOWS that when he's done, his people will either be free, or the whole world will burn. He KNOWS that not only will he die, but his soul will be destroyed, as will the soul of every goblin on the planet, so that when the gods remake things, his people will never be canon fodder again. Everyone seems to forget that, that he's lost more, and given up more then anyone in the comic, he's willing to CEASE TO BE, and be utterly forgotten, in order to raise up his people.

[super dark33]

*Superdark uses skill: Perform (jig)*

[Grim Reader]

Durkon is a good example: high wisdom and irrational unwise tree phobia.

Tsukiko could be the same: irrational unwise love of undead plus unknown wisdom.

Durkon -high wisdom and an irrational fear of trees, something alien to his formative environment and knowledge base.

Tsukiko -irrational, unwise love of the undead, in the face of every bit of lore about them. Undead are clearly her specialist subject, where she ahs her deepest knowledge. Its like a nuclear physicist thinking Plutonium just needs a hug really. Also, impulsiveness, recklessness and lack of common sense.

In short, Durkon generally shows high wisdom outside of one area he doesn't know much about. Tsukiko never showed high wisdom in any area, quite the opposite.

[Themrys]

Well, I can't say I mourn Tsukiko's demise. She was a nasty, evil teenager and lacking character.
(Like most female villains in this comic. Their motives seem to amount to "love", respectively "hating someone who said their haircut was ugly". Which is sad, although they are quite funny as individuals. But there's still hope...Sabine could have an Evil plan of her own.)

Redcloak shouldn't have left the room before Tsukiko was devoured. Maybe the undead do have feelings, after all, and have, unknown to Redcloak, not really killed her.
I'm pretty sure "make sure your opponent is dead" is somewhere on the evil overlord list. Granted, they may have bitten off her head off-panel, but the last undead may still resist the order to set itself on fire.

(Even though they might not be able to develop feelings according to D&D rules, RC has not read the D&D rules and therefore can't be sure.)

Its like a nuclear physicist thinking Plutonium just needs a hug really.

Which is not uncommon, in a metaphorical sense. I don't think you'll ever hear a scientist say "I have dedicated my life to researching that substance, but now, in light of my gained knowledge, I have to admit it's just too dangerous to be used by mankind."

On the other hand, you're right...Tsukiko wouldn't look half as stupid had she just said "Undead creatures can be used safely".

[Edhelras]

BTW, a "y" missing in "phylactery" in panel 5...

One other thing: Does anyone remember what kind of Ring protects against level draining?
I know a few that does so in CRPGs, but I cannot remember if such a ring is listed in DnD. I couldn't find it in the SRD. Maybe in the Libris Mortis, will check when back home...

[Nenec]

Well...this was really really brutal and sad.
All team evil always had was being equally evil and funny, from my perspective. This new revealed face of RC is only...coldly brutal over every limit, with not a bit of humor. Killing Tsukiko that way was probably the worse way oen could have figured, slowly chewed to death by your beloved "kids".
Eh, as I said for the previous strip, I always liked Tsukiko and was beginning to like her more every time, so even if she showed here to be extremely stupid this is one of the deaths that sadden me more in the whole comic's story.
So, I hope Xycon will give a good treat to RC, that would really make me happy. After all RC is showing too much self confidence, and that's a stupid thing from him, underrating Xycon like that. After all, his missing eye should remind him how much the lich can get angry, and that was just a taste of what he can do when angry...and he already doesn't trust RC much anyway so...

[FujinAkari]

Redcloak shouldn't have left the room before Tsukiko was devoured. Maybe the undead do have feelings, after all, and have, unknown to Redcloak, not really killed her.

No, his orders were "Drain her until the life leaves her THEN devour her." so the fact we heard the "Crunch"es says Tsukiko had been dead before RC left the room, he just didn't want to see the cannibalization.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Yesss!! That's why I love this comic since years ago!

Tsukiko had what she deserved as a witch! Pure genius!

BTW, Redcloack hasn't used any spell, but the clerical Command Undead ability, which doesn't have a top on the limit of the control over undead you get, so you can command suicidal orders. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tur...dead#Commanded

I'm tempted to start a thread arguing that Redcloak is Chaotic Good.

Redcloack has just entered into my top 3 favorite characters, I don't know what to think about that, as I myself am Chaotic Good-ish, and RC is...¿lawful Evil? I'm supposed to totally hate him... or it's that he is not LE anymore...

EDIT: i just love that we are almost back to 3 updates a week! :d

[Gholateg]

Anyone else notice that giant mirror maguffin in most of the panels? Anyone else suddenly get a "DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN" vibe?

[Yana]

Rest in Peace, Thanh's Boots.

[LordFluffy]

Redcloak just went from "awesome" to "Scary as hell".

Well done, Mr. Burlew.

[Agnostik]

Durkon -high wisdom and an irrational fear of trees, something alien to his formative environment and knowledge base.

Tsukiko -irrational, unwise love of the undead, in the face of every bit of lore about them. Undead are clearly her specialist subject, where she ahs her deepest knowledge. Its like a nuclear physicist thinking Plutonium just needs a hug really. Also, impulsiveness, recklessness and lack of common sense.

In short, Durkon generally shows high wisdom outside of one area he doesn't know much about. Tsukiko never showed high wisdom in any area, quite the opposite.

The phobia of trees can also be discounted as a racial/upbringing affectation. Dwarves in general are depicted as tree-phobic several times (dendrophobic?).

[bluewurm]

awesome. byebye nuisance

[silvadel]

Oops -- he made one of the largest and oldest mistakes of cliched villianhood.

You *NEVER* leave the room until you are 101% CERTAIN the deed is done.

You are in the southern lands Redcloak -- for all you know she could even succeed in a divine intervention check and rat could rescue her.

SO much better to stand and watch it happen just to be sure.

[leakingpen]

Giant, AWESOME! Red Cloak just got awesomer. I'm curious though, does that get him xp, having his commanded undead kill her?

But, he's had a 30 year plan to give the gate to his god? HOLY CARP!

[tcrudisi]

I am very happy that Tsukiko is finally dead. As far as characters go, she was one of my least favorites. Her death was everything I hoped it would be.

Sorry if I bring up points that have been made in pages 3-7, but I haven't read those discussion pages yet.

I wonder how RC is going to get the arcane half by to Xykon. He should know that Tsukiko had it and suddenly RC is showing up with it. The fact she is missing is not nearly as bad, imo.

Like several people here, I believe the fact that RC said all of that out loud does not bode well for him. Yes, he probably did a good enough job taking out all the evidence, but I too suspect that Xykon was tevo'ing it or will tevo it later. Is Xykon's divination strong enough to break through RC's wards? I think they are (based on the epic level spell we've already seen him cast).

[legomaster00156]

That was brutal, Redcloak... but at the same time, I congratulate you on your efficient defeat of your enemies.

[King of Nowhere]

GO REDCLOAK GO!
I've been waiting this for years! And with much more style than "destruction", no less

Curious, in the end I see Tsukiko as a tragic figure, who acted on a totally misguided love.

[Gift Jeraff]

Durkon -high wisdom and an irrational fear of trees, something alien to his formative environment and knowledge base.

Tsukiko -irrational, unwise love of the undead, in the face of every bit of lore about them. Undead are clearly her specialist subject, where she ahs her deepest knowledge. Its like a nuclear physicist thinking Plutonium just needs a hug really. Also, impulsiveness, recklessness and lack of common sense.

In short, Durkon generally shows high wisdom outside of one area he doesn't know much about. Tsukiko never showed high wisdom in any area, quite the opposite.

Despite being a man of religion, Thor's religion to be specific, Durkon had such little ranks in Knowledge (Religion) that he couldn't even identify a cleric of Thor's Chaotic Evil arch-nemesis.

[Sweet_Goddess]

What strip was this?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html
Panel 9

Tsikko like Thog before her has no X's why the ambiguity ? We got nice clear xX's when Roy died.

Unnecessary, because death by wight means she would have become a wight in 1d4 rounds herself, RC just preemptively had her eaten so she would stay dead... Tsukiko's stealing the Phylactery and taking it and the ritual half to the resistance, which was her responsibility to deal with, but she was really working with would be ruined if her wight body was walking around. So of course if RC is going to put all the blame on Tsukiko, and turn the guilt on XYkon for trusting her and giving her the ritual half, he has to cover up her death.

Since she was fully drained by the wights, I think true resurrection wouldn't work, since she'd just die immediately again, from lack of levels, and since she is dead, restoration won't work to put those levels back. Tsukiko is beyond resurrection.

[Edhelras]

Anyone else notice that giant mirror maguffin in most of the panels? Anyone else suddenly get a "DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN" vibe?

Spoiler

Show

I think Xykon is watching the whole scene, using the mirror as a surveillance camera. And that explains where the Teevo has gone, too....

[Themrys]

Anyone else notice that giant mirror maguffin in most of the panels? Anyone else suddenly get a "DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN" vibe?

I expected to see one of the undead in it, proving it was a shapechanged goblin or whatever, and could, therefore, not be controlled by RC.

Are D&D undead visible in mirrors?

@FujinAkari: Well, it is possible they just gnaw on her arms. We cannot see, but RC cannot see it either...and he can't know for sure they don't have developed feelings for their "mommy".

[Beowulf DW]

That was appropriately gruesome. Never thought I'd use those two words together like that.

[Kish]

@FujinAkari: Well, it is possible they just gnaw on her arms. We cannot see, but RC cannot see it either...

They're disobeying Redcloak if they start eating her when she's not dead, and one of the big points of this scene is that disobeying the cleric who commands them isn't something that even occurs to undead.

And as for Redcloak not seeing it either, you're taking a great deal for granted if you're assuming that he looked away before seeing X's in her eyes just because we didn't get to see them.

I doubt he's even bothered by them eating her. He's leaving because he knows the undead he controls well enough to know that no further supervision is necessary, and he has things to do.

[TinyMushroom]

Goodbye, Tsukiko. I'd say we thought you were awesome, but apparently I'm the only one.

[suszterpatt]

I rarely comment on strips, but damn, this was just excellent. The whole "undead are just weapons" thing, Tsukiko's last words, Redcloak's completely neutral expression throughout her getting killed... it's strips like this that make this comic a real piece of art. :)

[Kurald Galain]

I imagine it was actually meant to kill the ghouls holding onto her, not drastically harm Redcloak.

Perhaps, but wights also have more hit points than that.

Tsukiko is beyond resurrection.

Yes. Also relevant is that she is beyond the reach of Speak With Dead (which requires a mostly-intact corpse).

[Themrys]

They're disobeying Redcloak if they start eating her when she's not dead, and one of the big points of this scene is that disobeying the cleric who commands them isn't something that even occurs to undead.

My point was that Redcloak has not read the D&D rulebook and therefore can not know for sure what undead can or cannot feel or do.

While there may be no consequences, he sure acted careless.

[4is111]

At the end of this last strip, 830, Redcloak ordered the wights to devour Tsukiko and then each other until there was only one left. That means that the last wight would have devoured almost 3 times its own mass in a short time span. Won't that cause its belly to burst, and even if it doesn't, why bother having the wights devour each other at all if he's just going to burn the last one? There's the same amount of wight to burn, so why bother having them eat each other? I was under the impression that Redcloak understood science at least that well.